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Levy plans to stay long term but must consider takeover bids

THX2208

Ubisoft Goes Steamworks Bye Bye; Always On DRM
Dec 6, 2006
2,921
4,774
I didn't post this on Twitter but just happened to find it. It seems Levy is getting a lot abuse but I remember the early 90s. We had substandard training facilities and an aging ground, especially the East Stand. I remember Alen Sugar was at one point going to knock down the East Stand and rebuild it, bring the seats up to 44,000 nothing ever came of it. To be fair to Levy he's completely changed the entire infrastructure of the Football Club.
Screenshot_2018-08-14-00-43-08.png
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
I didn't post this on Twitter but just happened to find it. It seems Levy is getting a lot abuse but I remember the early 90s. We had substandard training facilities and an aging ground, especially the East Stand. I remember Alen Sugar was at one point going to knock down the East Stand and rebuild it, bring the seats up to 44,000 nothing ever came of it. To be fair to Levy he's completely changed the entire infrastructure of the Football Club. View attachment 40116

Levy lost a lot of fans with the attempted move to the os. They never forgave him and use every opportunity to attack him. Others are a bit jealous of other teams spending on players while we spend on stadium and training ground. Some are pissed with the lack of trophies. But also you do have a lot that are pissed at the rise in prices. This delay on top of all that and a summer with no signings means he is going to get it.

He is the bloke in charge and has to hold ultimate responsibility but i think many fans go too far in their dislike of him. I think he has done a good job all things considered and the resources at his disposal.
 

THX2208

Ubisoft Goes Steamworks Bye Bye; Always On DRM
Dec 6, 2006
2,921
4,774
Levy lost a lot of fans with the attempted move to the os. They never forgave him and use every opportunity to attack him. Others are a bit jealous of other teams spending on players while we spend on stadium and training ground. Some are pissed with the lack of trophies. But also you do have a lot that are pissed at the rise in prices. This delay on top of all that and a summer with no signings means he is going to get it.

He is the bloke in charge and has to hold ultimate responsibility but i think many fans go too far in their dislike of him. I think he has done a good job all things considered and the resources at his disposal.
???
 

The Doc

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2012
881
2,456
Levy lost a lot of fans with the attempted move to the os. They never forgave him and use every opportunity to attack him. Others are a bit jealous of other teams spending on players while we spend on stadium and training ground. Some are pissed with the lack of trophies. But also you do have a lot that are pissed at the rise in prices. This delay on top of all that and a summer with no signings means he is going to get it.

He is the bloke in charge and has to hold ultimate responsibility but i think many fans go too far in their dislike of him. I think he has done a good job all things considered and the resources at his disposal.

It's difficult to argue with this when he has delivered a new stadium, training facilities and a coach/1st team who have finished 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in consecutive seasons. Don't know if he was damaged by the Stratford bid, other things, or whether it's just standard for people in his position to get all the stick when things go "wrong", or don't meet the fans' expectations (which may be different things entirely, especially if you don't have his perspective and insight on the club).

For me, and I don't know if there is any truth in this, (it's purely a perception-based thing) it's the nagging feeling that the coach does not get his full support in terms of player recruitment. Remember Pleat, when he stepped in for Hoddle, making a comment along the lines of "only he can do something about it" (intimating that money was needed to but better players) when Levy had used the final game programme notes to remark on a "disappointing season", and sensing similar with Jol, Redknapp and now Poch. To reiterate, don't know if there is any truth in this, but it feels like there is something to it. Then again, you look at the present infrastructure and playing/coaching staff, compared to what went before, and wonder what there is to moan about.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
It's difficult to argue with this when he has delivered a new stadium, training facilities and a coach/1st team who have finished 3rd, 2nd and 3rd in consecutive seasons. Don't know if he was damaged by the Stratford bid, other things, or whether it's just standard for people in his position to get all the stick when things go "wrong", or don't meet the fans' expectations (which may be different things entirely, especially if you don't have his perspective and insight on the club).

For me, and I don't know if there is any truth in this, (it's purely a perception-based thing) it's the nagging feeling that the coach does not get his full support in terms of player recruitment. Remember Pleat, when he stepped in for Hoddle, making a comment along the lines of "only he can do something about it" (intimating that money was needed to but better players) when Levy had used the final game programme notes to remark on a "disappointing season", and sensing similar with Jol, Redknapp and now Poch. To reiterate, don't know if there is any truth in this, but it feels like there is something to it. Then again, you look at the present infrastructure and playing/coaching staff, compared to what went before, and wonder what there is to moan about.

Agree and think it is part of investing in infrastructure rather than first team.
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
8,035
7,436
If Levy is such a hotrod chairman and all round baldy genius how come every time there's talk of him leaving, or the nutcase fraternity want him out, then how come not one of you lot trust him to sell to someone who will do equally sterling work? Its always automatically going to be the ruination of the club.

If you think he'd sell to some total lunatic who'd run us into the ground then perhaps, just perhaps, he isn't the infallible hung like a donkey genius everyone makes him out to be. Because if he sells to some lunatic who takes us to ruination, that isn't down to being careful what one wishes for, it's down to him.

I think there's no way he'd sell to charlatan owners, he's a fan too and when the time comes (and it will) I trust him to sell to the right people, because if he doesn't, this cult of Levy business has all been one great big lie.

oooooh.

I've been thinking about this. Are you sure that Levy wouldn't sell to a lunatic to make himself look better by comparison? So that his army of followers can forever laud us with tales of:

How we never had it so good;
How he was the greatest football chairman in the world ever; and,
How he left us because the non-believers refused to repent forcing him to return to his celestial transport and travel the galaxy in search of the best investment opportunities?

I mean, if he is such a good businessman how come we don't have a naming rights deal for the new stadium? The one which is apparently going to be his legacy? The one that's going to be even later than the original lateness?

Just playing Devil's Avocado obviously. #Levy4ever
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
I've been thinking about this. Are you sure that Levy wouldn't sell to a lunatic to make himself look better by comparison? So that his army of followers can forever laud us with tales of:

How we never had it so good;
How he was the greatest football chairman in the world ever; and,
How he left us because the non-believers refused to repent forcing him to return to his celestial transport and travel the galaxy in search of the best investment opportunities?

I mean, if he is such a good businessman how come we don't have a naming rights deal for the new stadium? The one which is apparently going to be his legacy? The one that's going to be even later than the original lateness?

Just playing Devil's Avocado obviously. #Levy4ever

Because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would a man so obviously more concerned about making the right commercial and financial decisions than making people feel warm and happy suddenly jettison everything just so that the supporters he'd be leaving behind might start to think think better of him?

Or, on the other hand, if that's all wrong and he really does care more about what the the supporters think of him than he does about making money, well, why would he sell out to a shithouse lunatic who would undo what he's been trying to build up for years, just when things might be starting to come together?

No one knows what he's thinking, but if we're going to make things up, we might at least make up something that adds up.
 

seanwhite1961

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2011
1,089
678
Because it makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would a man so obviously more concerned about making the right commercial and financial decisions than making people feel warm and happy suddenly jettison everything just so that the supporters he'd be leaving behind might start to think think better of him?

Or, on the other hand, if that's all wrong and he really does care more about what the the supporters think of him than he does about making money, well, why would he sell out to a shithouse lunatic who would undo what he's been trying to build up for years, just when things might be starting to come together?

No one knows what he's thinking, but if we're going to make things up, we might at least make up something that adds up.
Money. Who doesn't sell to the highest bidder? At this level the difference is massive amounts of money. Plus lunatics don't always come armed with a giant sign stuck on them saying: "I'm a lunatic!". Thus you have the escape clause: "Blimey, New Owner being a lunatic is a massive surprise! When we did the takeover talks he seemed so rational and lucid, with his long-term plans concentrating on what was best for the club. Our checks showed he is single-minded, determined and ruthless at times, but no obvious indications of lunacy."

It doesn't need to be a lunatic. It could be an Ashley or a Glazier that wants to take as much money out of the club as possible, and that has absolutely no concern over what the fans think and do.
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
Money. Who doesn't sell to the highest bidder? At this level the difference is massive amounts of money. Plus lunatics don't always come armed with a giant sign stuck on them saying: "I'm a lunatic!". Thus you have the escape clause: "Blimey, New Owner being a lunatic is a massive surprise! When we did the takeover talks he seemed so rational and lucid, with his long-term plans concentrating on what was best for the club. Our checks showed he is single-minded, determined and ruthless at times, but no obvious indications of lunacy."

It doesn't need to be a lunatic. It could be an Ashley or a Glazier that wants to take as much money out of the club as possible, and that has absolutely no concern over what the fans think and do.

Yes, all of that is perfectly possible. And it's not what I was disagreeing with.

But there are other considerations. A willing seller will behave differently from a reluctant seller, and the price will reflect that. In other words, a reluctant seller like I believe Levy/Lewis/ENIC to be would need to be persuaded that the price isn't just the best price on offer, which is just a matter of fleeting concern only of interest to a forced seller, but represents better value than not selling. Remember, investment companies generally believe that cash is a wasting asset, and it's why so many people misunderstand Levy and ENIC.

And anyone who has just voluntarily loaded a company up with hundreds of millions of pounds of debt for a growth project like this one is likely to believe that the value will increase, so an offer is unlikely to be attractive unless someone is even more convinced that ENIC have done a good job of creating value than ENIC themselves are. And that feels unlikely to me, at the moment anyway.
 

jimbo

Cabbages
Dec 22, 2003
8,035
7,436
Yes, all of that is perfectly possible. And it's not what I was disagreeing with.

But there are other considerations. A willing seller will behave differently from a reluctant seller, and the price will reflect that. In other words, a reluctant seller like I believe Levy/Lewis/ENIC to be would need to be persuaded that the price isn't just the best price on offer, which is just a matter of fleeting concern only of interest to a forced seller, but represents better value than not selling. Remember, investment companies generally believe that cash is a wasting asset, and it's why so many people misunderstand Levy and ENIC.

And anyone who has just voluntarily loaded a company up with hundreds of millions of pounds of debt for a growth project like this one is likely to believe that the value will increase, so an offer is unlikely to be attractive unless someone is even more convinced that ENIC have done a good job of creating value than ENIC themselves are. And that feels unlikely to me, at the moment anyway.

All right, if you want to be sensible about it... ENIC have invested heavily in the ground and the training centre, tangible assets that increase the value to a buyer. Were these really necessary in an era where TV money has outstripped ordinary gate receipts to such an extent? Or is it more plausible that they've invested money in things they understand, the bricks and mortar, with the intention of making a profit on their investment. Remember a large part of the reason we used a DoF system for so long was supposedly to reduce the turnover in playing staff that comes with a change of manager - does that not suggest a reluctance to invest more heavily in the product (in this case the team) which is harder to value? I'm not saying I'm fully subscribed to the idea that they definitely want to sell on stadium completion, but I can see a very compelling argument for this being the case. To that end, I'm not convinced they'd be a reluctant seller - at least not any more.

In that scenario do you think they would sell to someone offering them less money but with the best interests of the club at heart or to anyone who offers them the most return on their investment? Levy the benevolent fan should prioritise the former - but then why has the investment in the squad been so tight? Levy the brilliant businessman should prioritise the latter. While we're on the subject, isn't being a good businessman pretty much a minimum standard for anyone in charge of a multi-million pound business?
 

yankspurs

Enic Out
Aug 22, 2013
41,884
71,192
I didn't post this on Twitter but just happened to find it. It seems Levy is getting a lot abuse but I remember the early 90s. We had substandard training facilities and an aging ground, especially the East Stand. I remember Alen Sugar was at one point going to knock down the East Stand and rebuild it, bring the seats up to 44,000 nothing ever came of it. To be fair to Levy he's completely changed the entire infrastructure of the Football Club. View attachment 40116
18 months? More like 2.5 months. This summer has been a series of PR catastrophes from the club.
 

mkkid

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2004
2,035
452
Levy lost a lot of fans with the attempted move to the os. They never forgave him and use every opportunity to attack him. Others are a bit jealous of other teams spending on players while we spend on stadium and training ground. Some are pissed with the lack of trophies. But also you do have a lot that are pissed at the rise in prices. This delay on top of all that and a summer with no signings means he is going to get it.

He is the bloke in charge and has to hold ultimate responsibility but i think many fans go too far in their dislike of him. I think he has done a good job all things considered and the resources at his disposal.

One trophy 18 years is failure and yet he treated like a demi god and get paid 7 million a year.
Yet again the Levites have been let down.
 

Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
Jul 20, 2017
2,864
15,279
I wonder what the forum's record is for number of threads having the same debate simultaneously. Gotta be getting close to a record...
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
One trophy 18 years is failure and yet he treated like a demi god and get paid 7 million a year.
Yet again the Levites have been let down.

He's not paid 7m per year.

Can you name a club outside the top 6 who have won more than one trophy in the last 18 years?
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
One trophy 18 years is failure and yet he treated like a demi god and get paid 7 million a year.
Yet again the Levites have been let down.

Pochettino hasn't won a trophy in the 9 years he's been managing. By your reckoning he is a failure and should be sacked?
 

Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
All right, if you want to be sensible about it... ENIC have invested heavily in the ground and the training centre, tangible assets that increase the value to a buyer. Were these really necessary in an era where TV money has outstripped ordinary gate receipts to such an extent? Or is it more plausible that they've invested money in things they understand, the bricks and mortar, with the intention of making a profit on their investment. Remember a large part of the reason we used a DoF system for so long was supposedly to reduce the turnover in playing staff that comes with a change of manager - does that not suggest a reluctance to invest more heavily in the product (in this case the team) which is harder to value? I'm not saying I'm fully subscribed to the idea that they definitely want to sell on stadium completion, but I can see a very compelling argument for this being the case. To that end, I'm not convinced they'd be a reluctant seller - at least not any more.

In that scenario do you think they would sell to someone offering them less money but with the best interests of the club at heart or to anyone who offers them the most return on their investment? Levy the benevolent fan should prioritise the former - but then why has the investment in the squad been so tight? Levy the brilliant businessman should prioritise the latter. While we're on the subject, isn't being a good businessman pretty much a minimum standard for anyone in charge of a multi-million pound business?

You may be misinterpreting what I’m saying. Of course he wants to maximise profit. The only thing worth debating is how he goes about doing it. And then, possibly, how he realises that profit, because selling is not always the best way of doing it, and he seems to be acutely aware of that.

I think Levy is primarily and above all a businessman. I don’t think he’s terribly concerned about what supporters think of him, so his decisions are not influenced by how people will react to his decisions. He will stick to whatever he sees as the plan. He is not an opportunist, except in the small details, occasionally. They are not integral to how he approaches big decisions. That is important ..

I believe he is taking the very long view. That is why he is not tempted to blow money on players who don’t appear to him or his closest coterie to be a definitive improvement on what they already have. It may leave us weak in some areas, (in my opinion it certainly does) but it’s not neglect, it’s his idea of wise long term management, and he probably looks back at where on we were when he took over and feels vindicated.

He’s not the type of person who’s affected by the taunts of the opposition, the media and our own fans who see winning a trophy now as more important than trying to build a successful dynasty. He will certainly believe that finishing in the top three more than just the once is a more important step in the right direction than winning the FACup while falling out of the top four as Arsenal have done. Many disagree with him. But he’s making the decisions.

He may be wrong but he’s consistent, and he believes he’s taking the harder route to better things. Of course this transfer window was insufferably disappointing to many supporters, but I don’t think it sheds any new light on the wayhe works.

It’s all too easy to interpret all this as a sign that he’s tight fisted, or looking to get out. Quick while the going’s good. But is it as good as it gets? He won’t believe so.

I’m convinced, from 1st hand experience, that he’s astute enough to know that the more successful the team, the higher the value of the company. And ditto the fuller the stadium, even if TV revenues dwarf ticket sales, because the two are linked.

So there are only two reasons I can see for not spending money in the transfer market.: One is that he genuinely didn’t see any value in what was available compared with the opportunity cost of increasing the salaries of the existing squad as far as possible, and the other is that covenants in the loan documents prevent it. If it’s the latter, it will have been exacerbated by the escalating costs of the stadium, and it would call into question the assurances we were given about the transfer budget being ring-fenced. That won’t have been a lie, because the project budget did allow for aggressive cost escalation, and a lie is a deliberate falsification, but it may well have been a bad mistake. References to Brexit are easily laughed off, but that doesn’t make them irrelevant.

If I’m right, if he believes that he’s right, if he believes that the reason he’s unpopular is because he’s taking a longer view that absolutely requires more patience than most fans are prepared to willingly bear, then he will not believe that selling to someone who simply sees the value of TV revenues and bricks and mortar assets is the best use of ENIC’s assets. He will believe that he has a better insight into the future potential of the club than anyone else has.

And so he should. I just hope he’s right.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
You may be misinterpreting what I’m saying. Of course he wants to maximise profit. The only thing worth debating is how he goes about doing it. And then, possibly, how he realises that profit, because selling is not always the best way of doing it, and he seems to be acutely aware of that.

I think Levy is primarily and above all a businessman. I don’t think he’s terribly concerned about what supporters think of him, so his decisions are not influenced by how people will react to his decisions. He will stick to whatever he sees as the plan. He is not an opportunist, except in the small details, occasionally. They are not integral to how he approaches big decisions. That is important ..

I believe he is taking the very long view. That is why he is not tempted to blow money on players who don’t appear to him or his closest coterie to be a definitive improvement on what they already have. It may leave us weak in some areas, (in my opinion it certainly does) but it’s not neglect, it’s his idea of wise long term management, and he probably looks back at where on we were when he took over and feels vindicated.

He’s not the type of person who’s affected by the taunts of the opposition, the media and our own fans who see winning a trophy now as more important than trying to build a successful dynasty. He will certainly believe that finishing in the top three more than just the once is a more important step in the right direction than winning the FACup while falling out of the top four as Arsenal have done. Many disagree with him. But he’s making the decisions.

He may be wrong but he’s consistent, and he believes he’s taking the harder route to better things. Of course this transfer window was insufferably disappointing to many supporters, but I don’t think it sheds any new light on the wayhe works.

It’s all too easy to interpret all this as a sign that he’s tight fisted, or looking to get out. Quick while the going’s good. But is it as good as it gets? He won’t believe so.

I’m convinced, from 1st hand experience, that he’s astute enough to know that the more successful the team, the higher the value of the company. And ditto the fuller the stadium, even if TV revenues dwarf ticket sales, because the two are linked.

So there are only two reasons I can see for not spending money in the transfer market.: One is that he genuinely didn’t see any value in what was available compared with the opportunity cost of increasing the salaries of the existing squad as far as possible, and the other is that covenants in the loan documents prevent it. If it’s the latter, it will have been exacerbated by the escalating costs of the stadium, and it would call into question the assurances we were given about the transfer budget being ring-fenced. That won’t have been a lie, because the project budget did allow for aggressive cost escalation, and a lie is a deliberate falsification, but it may well have been a bad mistake. References to Brexit are easily laughed off, but that doesn’t make them irrelevant.

If I’m right, if he believes that he’s right, if he believes that the reason he’s unpopular is because he’s taking a longer view that absolutely requires more patience than most fans are prepared to willingly bear, then he will not believe that selling to someone who simply sees the value of TV revenues and bricks and mortar assets is the best use of ENIC’s assets. He will believe that he has a better insight into the future potential of the club than anyone else has.

And so he should. I just hope he’s right.
What an amazing post. Thank you
 

nickspurs

SC Supporter
May 13, 2005
1,608
1,389
You may be misinterpreting what I’m saying. Of course he wants to maximise profit. The only thing worth debating is how he goes about doing it. And then, possibly, how he realises that profit, because selling is not always the best way of doing it, and he seems to be acutely aware of that.

I think Levy is primarily and above all a businessman. I don’t think he’s terribly concerned about what supporters think of him, so his decisions are not influenced by how people will react to his decisions. He will stick to whatever he sees as the plan. He is not an opportunist, except in the small details, occasionally. They are not integral to how he approaches big decisions. That is important ..

I believe he is taking the very long view. That is why he is not tempted to blow money on players who don’t appear to him or his closest coterie to be a definitive improvement on what they already have. It may leave us weak in some areas, (in my opinion it certainly does) but it’s not neglect, it’s his idea of wise long term management, and he probably looks back at where on we were when he took over and feels vindicated.

He’s not the type of person who’s affected by the taunts of the opposition, the media and our own fans who see winning a trophy now as more important than trying to build a successful dynasty. He will certainly believe that finishing in the top three more than just the once is a more important step in the right direction than winning the FACup while falling out of the top four as Arsenal have done. Many disagree with him. But he’s making the decisions.

He may be wrong but he’s consistent, and he believes he’s taking the harder route to better things. Of course this transfer window was insufferably disappointing to many supporters, but I don’t think it sheds any new light on the wayhe works.

It’s all too easy to interpret all this as a sign that he’s tight fisted, or looking to get out. Quick while the going’s good. But is it as good as it gets? He won’t believe so.

I’m convinced, from 1st hand experience, that he’s astute enough to know that the more successful the team, the higher the value of the company. And ditto the fuller the stadium, even if TV revenues dwarf ticket sales, because the two are linked.

So there are only two reasons I can see for not spending money in the transfer market.: One is that he genuinely didn’t see any value in what was available compared with the opportunity cost of increasing the salaries of the existing squad as far as possible, and the other is that covenants in the loan documents prevent it. If it’s the latter, it will have been exacerbated by the escalating costs of the stadium, and it would call into question the assurances we were given about the transfer budget being ring-fenced. That won’t have been a lie, because the project budget did allow for aggressive cost escalation, and a lie is a deliberate falsification, but it may well have been a bad mistake. References to Brexit are easily laughed off, but that doesn’t make them irrelevant.

If I’m right, if he believes that he’s right, if he believes that the reason he’s unpopular is because he’s taking a longer view that absolutely requires more patience than most fans are prepared to willingly bear, then he will not believe that selling to someone who simply sees the value of TV revenues and bricks and mortar assets is the best use of ENIC’s assets. He will believe that he has a better insight into the future potential of the club than anyone else has.

And so he should. I just hope he’s right.
Well written. Couldn’t agree more.
 
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