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Levy plans to stay long term but must consider takeover bids

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
@am_yisrael_chai all you seem to put over are the way you and a few others see it.

I've seen post from you "spending our money on bricks and mortar." once you part with your money it is no longer yours, it's the owners of the company you give it too

if you took a morgage out tomorrow, it might not stop you buying food but it would effect your life if you was paying a considerable debt compared to what you had before.

you are right about Levy not accepting a sponsorship deal because it wasn't what he wanted and is asking too, but how can you blame him for the stadium not being complete. the only thing he is guilty of is trying to get us back in too early and stayed at Wembley for a 2nd season.

he is wrong in saying it won't effect our spending and should of explained we needed to trim the squad before spending, but at the time there was thought that Toby, Rose and Dembele would be off and with the possibility of Sissoko and Janssen, but nothing happened.
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
@am_yisrael_chai all you seem to put over are the way you and a few others see it.

I've seen post from you "spending our money on bricks and mortar." once you part with your money it is no longer yours, it's the owners of the company you give it too

if you took a morgage out tomorrow, it might not stop you buying food but it would effect your life if you was paying a considerable debt compared to what you had before.

you are right about Levy not accepting a sponsorship deal because it wasn't what he wanted and is asking too, but how can you blame him for the stadium not being complete. the only thing he is guilty of is trying to get us back in too early and stayed at Wembley for a 2nd season.

he is wrong in saying it won't effect our spending and should of explained we needed to trim the squad before spending, but at the time there was thought that Toby, Rose and Dembele would be off and with the possibility of Sissoko and Janssen, but nothing happened.
I think it’s fair to say you and I will have to agree to disagree.

1) its a Forum, I can only represent my opinions not those of others, it is for them to articulate contrary opinions
2) as I have said numerous times if once I hand my money over it is the company’s then I am a customer, one who is paying world record prices for sub-standard product and by the way we were expensive even before the price hikes
3 the stadium screw up - Everyone with property expertise said before the delays were announced that the build timescale was too aggressive / overly optimistic. You may ascribe that to a Chairman who really felt for the fans and cared about the impact on the team from spending more time at Wembley, I choose to look at Levy’s track record and say those concerns were very far down his list of considerations and top of his list was selling boxes and more expensive seats at NWHL. Even if you don’t ascribe to him my motivations at the very least you must accept that as Chairman of the club he can’t avoid all responsibility for the screw up, it is his job, his primary job, to get the stadium delivered, to say he isn’t an electrical expert is to absolve any CEO of a large company of mega screw ups that happen on their watch. Yes they don’t fix the wiring but their job is to put in place the monitoring processes to ensure problems like that are caught early, the fact he didn’t is on him. If he was the CEO of a property company, which given the balance sheet at Spurs is de facto what he is, he’d have been fired for such a monumental screw up.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I think it’s fair to say you and I will have to agree to disagree.

1) its a Forum, I can only represent my opinions not those of others, it is for them to articulate contrary opinions
2) as I have said numerous times if once I hand my money over it is the company’s then I am a customer, one who is paying world record prices for sub-standard product and by the way we were expensive even before the price hikes
3 the stadium screw up - Everyone with property expertise said before the delays were announced that the build timescale was too aggressive / overly optimistic. You may ascribe that to a Chairman who really felt for the fans and cared about the impact on the team from spending more time at Wembley, I choose to look at Levy’s track record and say those concerns were very far down his list of considerations and top of his list was selling boxes and more expensive seats at NWHL. Even if you don’t ascribe to him my motivations at the very least you must accept that as Chairman of the club he can’t avoid all responsibility for the screw up, it is his job, his primary job, to get the stadium delivered, to say he isn’t an electrical expert is to absolve any CEO of a large company of mega screw ups that happen on their watch. Yes they don’t fix the wiring but their job is to put in place the monitoring processes to ensure problems like that are caught early, the fact he didn’t is on him. If he was the CEO of a property company, which given the balance sheet at Spurs is de facto what he is, he’d have been fired for such a monumental screw up.

I noticed you never quoted or answered the other post but hey ho

yes you are a customer but sub standard? what a joke even 10 years ago you wouldn't put us as finishing in the top 3 for 3 consecutive seasons. our prices was high compared to those up north, but you have to take into account that the clubs up north had much bigger stadiums and have to take into account the difference people earn.

when he handed the keys over to mace he had no control, he only found out about the faults when it was near the end (a time when all we needed was a safety certificate), he was at fault for whatever reason for not keeping us at Wembley for a 2nd season. shame Mace never told him it was possible either, then he would of had no choice
 

MyNameIsNicolaBerti

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2013
2,035
3,834
@am_yisrael_chai all you seem to put over are the way you and a few others see it.

I've seen post from you "spending our money on bricks and mortar." once you part with your money it is no longer yours, it's the owners of the company you give it too

if you took a morgage out tomorrow, it might not stop you buying food but it would effect your life if you was paying a considerable debt compared to what you had before.

you are right about Levy not accepting a sponsorship deal because it wasn't what he wanted and is asking too, but how can you blame him for the stadium not being complete. the only thing he is guilty of is trying to get us back in too early and stayed at Wembley for a 2nd season.

he is wrong in saying it won't effect our spending and should of explained we needed to trim the squad before spending, but at the time there was thought that Toby, Rose and Dembele would be off and with the possibility of Sissoko and Janssen, but nothing happened.
I think there are a lot of factors in play.

At the end of the day Levy took the word of MACE and other contractors on face value and made promises to fans accordingly. But anyone with common sense knew that a year was a tall ask and that all manner of things could go wrong. Now, contractually, Levy might well have a case against the likes of MACE in terms of suing them because they failed to deliver. But anyone with a shred of intelligence knew this was only going to come to fruition if everything went perfectly.

But I do, to this day, get tired of reading posts doing down Levy over the infrastructure of the club. Want to moan about transfers? Yeah. I can see the argument. But the man has, quite frankly, overseen our most transformative period in decades. World class training ground. World class stadium...and all without oil billions. We've gone from mid table dross to Champion's League regulars (albeit I think we may fall short this year). Looking at it from the perspective of the long game, rather than short term success, Levy presided over a consistent improvement on and off field. Once the new stadium us up and running and the funds start coming in, maybe it will be time for a fresh start and new owner. But right now, I can't imagine anyone who was around in the Sugar or Scholar days genuinely being able to argue that the club has not significantly improved under Levy's watch.

I believe that even if we fail in the short term, Levy has set the foundations that will transform us and allow us to compete in the long term, even if he is no longer in charge.
 
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MyNameIsNicolaBerti

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2013
2,035
3,834
I think it’s fair to say you and I will have to agree to disagree.

1) its a Forum, I can only represent my opinions not those of others, it is for them to articulate contrary opinions
2) as I have said numerous times if once I hand my money over it is the company’s then I am a customer, one who is paying world record prices for sub-standard product and by the way we were expensive even before the price hikes
3 the stadium screw up - Everyone with property expertise said before the delays were announced that the build timescale was too aggressive / overly optimistic. You may ascribe that to a Chairman who really felt for the fans and cared about the impact on the team from spending more time at Wembley, I choose to look at Levy’s track record and say those concerns were very far down his list of considerations and top of his list was selling boxes and more expensive seats at NWHL. Even if you don’t ascribe to him my motivations at the very least you must accept that as Chairman of the club he can’t avoid all responsibility for the screw up, it is his job, his primary job, to get the stadium delivered, to say he isn’t an electrical expert is to absolve any CEO of a large company of mega screw ups that happen on their watch. Yes they don’t fix the wiring but their job is to put in place the monitoring processes to ensure problems like that are caught early, the fact he didn’t is on him. If he was the CEO of a property company, which given the balance sheet at Spurs is de facto what he is, he’d have been fired for such a monumental screw up.
All short term complaints. The new stadium may be late, but it will be delivered and two, maybe even one, seasons from now nobody will give a shit that it was late. They'll be focusing on revenue, progression and signings. Not that they had to wait a few months this season (and I say that as a season ticket holder).

The proof in the pudding is what the new stadium does to help us over many years to come. Not just the short term.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I think there are a lot of factors in play.

At the end of the day Levy took the word of MACE and other contractors on face value and made promises to fans accordingly. But anyone with common sense knew that a year was a tall ask and that all manner of things could go wrong. Now, contractually, Levy might well have a case against the likes of MACE in terms of suing them because they failed to deliver. But anyone with a shred of intelligence knew this was only going to come to fruition if everything went perfectly.

But I do, to this day, get tired of reading posts doing down Levy over the infrastructure of the club. Want to moan about transfers? Yeah. I can see the argument. But the man has, quite frankly, overseen our most transformative period in decades. World class training ground. World class stadium...and all without oil billions. We've gone from mid table dross to Champion's League regulars (albeit I think we may fall short this year). Looking at it from the perspective of the long game, rather than short term success, Levy presided over a consistent improvement on and off field. Once the new stadium us up and running and the finds start coming in, maybe it will be time for a fresh start and new owner. But right now, I can't imagine anyone who was around in the Sugar or Scholar days genuinely being able to argue that the club has not significantly improved under Levy's watch.

I believe that even if we fail in the short term, Levy has set the foundations that will transform us and allow us to compete in the long term, even if he is no longer in charge.

that won't wash with @[email protected] because Joe Lewis is richer than the Sheik. he will disagree with you with a rating whatever rating he choses then go into hiding and not respond unless he finds a small hole in your post, or if you disagree with something he says
 

MyNameIsNicolaBerti

Well-Known Member
Jan 28, 2013
2,035
3,834
that won't wash with @[email protected] because Joe Lewis is richer than the Sheik. he will disagree with you with a rating whatever rating he choses then go into hiding and not respond unless he finds a small hole in your post, or if you disagree with something he says
I don't know much about said poster. But what I will point out is that ENIC is one of about 200 companies in Joe Lewis's Tavistock investment group. People seem convinced he is a direct owner and has billions to invest. But that isn't really the case. While he is ultimately in control of the club and is a billionaire, people don't seem to realise that his huge portfolio of businesses means that his funds are invested in many different ventures around the world and that Spurs are just one of many business interests he has.
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
All short term complaints. The new stadium may be late, but it will be delivered and two, maybe even one, seasons from now nobody will give a shit that it was late. They'll be focusing on revenue, progression and signings. Not that they had to wait a few months this season (and I say that as a season ticket holder).

The proof in the pudding is what the new stadium does to help us over many years to come. Not just the short term.
I really hope you are right
 

piedpiper

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2008
3,758
6,763
@am_yisrael_chai all you seem to put over are the way you and a few others see it.

I've seen post from you "spending our money on bricks and mortar." once you part with your money it is no longer yours, it's the owners of the company you give it too

if you took a morgage out tomorrow, it might not stop you buying food but it would effect your life if you was paying a considerable debt compared to what you had before.

you are right about Levy not accepting a sponsorship deal because it wasn't what he wanted and is asking too, but how can you blame him for the stadium not being complete. the only thing he is guilty of is trying to get us back in too early and stayed at Wembley for a 2nd season.

he is wrong in saying it won't effect our spending and should of explained we needed to trim the squad before spending, but at the time there was thought that Toby, Rose and Dembele would be off and with the possibility of Sissoko and Janssen, but nothing happened.

I disagree on one point... We didnt think Toby/Rose/Dembele would be off... Im of the view they tried to push them out the club. In particular Toby Alderwerield.

You only had to look at the stories being peddled ( reneged on an agreed deal/asked for more money/pushy agent "his father"/ he would not play another game for the team. Disrespected Poch... It goes on and on.

The spin on offer was/is jaw dropping...through it all i always said we were being fed info from one perspective... Too Toby's credit he stayed strong and composed. Amazing how a player who would NEVER play for us again has started 7 games this season. Its clear, to me atleast, the club cocked up his contract and then tried to push him out.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
The spin on offer was/is jaw dropping...through it all i always said we were being fed info from one perspective... Too Toby's credit he stayed strong and composed. Amazing how a player who would NEVER play for us again has started 7 games this season. Its clear, to me atleast, the club cocked up his contract and then tried to push him out.

That can’t be clear to you. There are too many unknowns and too many plausible alternatives.

You ascribe evidence that contradicts your thesis as “jaw-dripping spin” but you have no basis for doing that.

Only a very small number of people close to the situation can have strong thoughts about what happened. Everyone else is speculating.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Make money by improving the playing side of the club, win trophies, attract more fans, to use US sports terminology "grow the franchise" then great, because we as the fans get to come along for the ride. You could look to John Henry and even to a lesser extent the Glazers as examples of this. I would even argue that both Sheikh Mansour and Abramovic fit into this category.....

You seem irked at my criticism of ENIC, I'm just as irked by fans who blindly defend ENIC simply because they are better than the idiot that is Alan Sugar. How anyone can defend our owners after this last transfer window fiasco is beyond me. Even on a financial level ENIC's penny pinching has proved very short sighted. To take just one example, but the one that I think irritates more Spurs fans than any other, the signing of Sissoko. We ended up with him because we refused to pay Mane's wages or Zaha's transfer fee. What is Sissoko's transfer value now ? What are Mane and Zaha's ? I just don't see Daniel Levy as the business genius that the BSoDL want to promote. To my mind he is the Philip Hammond of football chairmen, efficient at dealing with expenses but utterly lacking any vision.

This post, particularly the bits I’ve left, is illuminating.

Reading it carefully it is clear that you have set up a paradigm where ENIC are only successful if they buy top tier talent for big fees and on big wages. It is right there in your post.

Only acceptable way for owners to behave? “Make money by improving the playing side of the squad”
Wanna see good chairmen? “Look to John Henry...Glazers...both Sheikh Mansour and Abramovic”
Perceived decisive point? “How anyone can defend our owners after this last transfer window fiasco is beyond me”
“To take just one example, but the one that I think irritates more Spurs fans than any other, the signing of Sissoko. We ended up with him because we refused to pay Mane's wages or Zaha's transfer fee. What is Sissoko's transfer value now ? What are Mane and Zaha's ?”


I think this whole approach is misguided. Building a club you can be proud of is (for most fans) about far more than buying expensive players. It’s a kind of football manager ification of the game.

Perhaps our club’s values, playing the right way and organic growth are more important from both a business perspective and a sense of identity. I don’t envy the other clubs’ chairmen in that regard.

But the fundamental issue with your approach is that you develop very strong feelings based on highly unreliable information. That is never a good idea. Your assumptions about Sissoko, Mané and Zaha are typical of that. It is for that reason that most reasonable fans will view that section of the support as wel-intentioned but ultimately a bit immature and hot-headed.

Your views, however nicely expressed, are not rationally formed. Fortunately you are not in charge and can blow off steam on a forum without impacting the club unduly :)
 

am_yisrael_chai

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2006
6,409
10,931
This post, particularly the bits I’ve left, is illuminating.

Reading it carefully it is clear that you have set up a paradigm where ENIC are only successful if they buy top tier talent for big fees and on big wages. It is right there in your post.

Only acceptable way for owners to behave? “Make money by improving the playing side of the squad”
Wanna see good chairmen? “Look to John Henry...Glazers...both Sheikh Mansour and Abramovic”
Perceived decisive point? “How anyone can defend our owners after this last transfer window fiasco is beyond me”
“To take just one example, but the one that I think irritates more Spurs fans than any other, the signing of Sissoko. We ended up with him because we refused to pay Mane's wages or Zaha's transfer fee. What is Sissoko's transfer value now ? What are Mane and Zaha's ?”


I think this whole approach is misguided. Building a club you can be proud of is (for most fans) about far more than buying expensive players. It’s a kind of football manager ification of the game.

Perhaps our club’s values, playing the right way and organic growth are more important from both a business perspective and a sense of identity. I don’t envy the other clubs’ chairmen in that regard.

But the fundamental issue with your approach is that you develop very strong feelings based on highly unreliable information. That is never a good idea. Your assumptions about Sissoko, Mané and Zaha are typical of that. It is for that reason that most reasonable fans will view that section of the support as wel-intentioned but ultimately a bit immature and hot-headed.

Your views, however nicely expressed, are not rationally formed. Fortunately you are not in charge and can blow off steam on a forum without impacting the club unduly :)
Did you take a degree at the Sorbonne on how to be patronising ?

You haven’t refuted any of my points just merely resorted to calling me immature, I suggest you look in the mirror. When you can articulate a counter argument based on reason rather than merely quoting me and seeking to infer my rationale then feel free to come back to me.
 

LeParisien

Wrong about everything
Mar 5, 2018
3,212
8,169
Did you take a degree at the Sorbonne on how to be patronising ?

You haven’t refuted any of my points just merely resorted to calling me immature, I suggest you look in the mirror. When you can articulate a counter argument based on reason rather than merely quoting me and seeking to infer my rationale then feel free to come back to me.
I don’t need a degree in patronising - I’m french!

I extensively quoted your post in a fair, representative way. The quotes run throughout the body of your text from start to finish and are consistent with someone who overvalues the transfer market. I explained why that was a mistake in the most rational manner possible.

If you would like something rational to respond to, let me put it succinctly.

You repeatedly say that in order for the club to be run well it needs to spend bigger on transfer fees and wages. You ignore the fact that the good running of a club is based on so much more (I gave examples above). Furthermore your focus on transfer fees and contracts is misguided because you develop strong feelings based on very poor quality of evidence. That is a mistake.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
I disagree on one point... We didnt think Toby/Rose/Dembele would be off... Im of the view they tried to push them out the club. In particular Toby Alderwerield.

You only had to look at the stories being peddled ( reneged on an agreed deal/asked for more money/pushy agent "his father"/ he would not play another game for the team. Disrespected Poch... It goes on and on.

The spin on offer was/is jaw dropping...through it all i always said we were being fed info from one perspective... Too Toby's credit he stayed strong and composed. Amazing how a player who would NEVER play for us again has started 7 games this season. Its clear, to me atleast, the club cocked up his contract and then tried to push him out.

I wouldn't say cocked up, because until his advisers got involved £120k or £130k was something he himself was going to agree, and in general is what most top CB get bar VVD
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
13,603
58,005
I wouldn't say cocked up, because until his advisers got involved £120k or £130k was something he himself was going to agree, and in general is what most top CB get bar VVD

We don't know if thats true or not, considering all the other things that were not true this summer I feel that info ties with Piedpipers view that we were being fed a perspective.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
We don't know if thats true or not, considering all the other things that were not true this summer I feel that info ties with Piedpipers view that we were being fed a perspective.

oh I agree know one knows exactly, but seemed as though last January the signs where so positive that he was going to put pen to paper on a new deal, and by the summer it wasn't sounding like he would ever put a Spurs shirt on again. It will all come out 1 day what happened, and I believe he wouldn't of worn the shirt again if we had been able to buy someone in his place, because of Poch's history of players Adebayor and Kaboul especially
 

vegassd

The ghost of Johnny Cash
Aug 5, 2006
3,356
3,330
You really seem to have missed my points entirely. I have no problem with owners making money but it is how they make the money from the football club that matters. Make money by improving the playing side of the club, win trophies, attract more fans, to use US sports terminology "grow the franchise" then great, because we as the fans get to come along for the ride. You could look to John Henry and even to a lesser extent the Glazers as examples of this. I would even argue that both Sheikh Mansour and Abramovic fit into this category as contrary to popular belief both will, or in Sheikh Mansour's case already have, made handsome profits from the clubs through growing the franchise. Seeking to make your return on investment by starving the club of operating cashflow so you can direct it all to property assets might be very lucrative for the owners but is highly unsatisfactory for the supporters. Put another way I feel like by following this strategy ENIC are treating us as customers. If we are customers then that is fine but as a customer I'm going to ask why when I pay the highest prices in the world for the product I don't get the highest quality product on the pitch.

Do you not think that our playing squad has improved since ENIC took over?
Do you not think that our exposure to the US and Asian markets has increased since ENIC took over?

I believe that both of the above are true, and that the Spurs of today is seen as a more competitive team than that of 2000. It's a nice idea to think that if we just spend a huge amount of money on new players that we instantly win loads of stuff but I'm of the opinion that the reality is far more complicated than that.

From what I understood of your post, you believe that ENIC have started to make THFC profitable but then take those profits and invest them into property so that they can make further money to keep for themselves. Apologies if I got that wrong. But I would firmly disagree with that idea and would say again that there are far easier ways to make money than running a football club.

My point on the training ground is that the supposed rationale for that investment was that it would allow us to attract the best youth, thereby developing our own players and having a world class team without needing to compete on transfer fees. That has proved to be an utterly false proposition as the bricks and mortar alone doesn't attract the best talent, fees and wages does. If ENIC weren't/aren't willing to pay what is required to attract the best youth talent then having the best facilities becomes an exercise in vanity, unless of course you have an eye on the balance sheet in which case then yes a shiny new training centre is highly valuable as a capital asset.

I agree with you - both in terms of the rationale for building the training ground and also the fact that the building alone isn't enough to attract the talent. But again, I would say that the reality of life is not as simple as some may want it to be.

There will be certain young players who are attracted most by money - we are unable to compete with the mega rich clubs for those. There will be others who are attracted most by the prestige of the club, and again we cannot compete with the likes of Barca or United on that front.

But then there will be other young players who aren't mega fussed about those two and would prefer a chance to progress their careers. If our training ground is nothing special then we don't stand out above the likes of Everton, West Ham or Newcastle for example. So having that swanky training ground gives us an advantage when you look at the types of young players we might attract.

It's not a magic bullet that means we are going to churn out a new Messi every year, but it does elevate us above a whole bunch of other clubs in my opinion.

You seem irked at my criticism of ENIC, I'm just as irked by fans who blindly defend ENIC simply because they are better than the idiot that is Alan Sugar. How anyone can defend our owners after this last transfer window fiasco is beyond me. Even on a financial level ENIC's penny pinching has proved very short sighted. To take just one example, but the one that I think irritates more Spurs fans than any other, the signing of Sissoko. We ended up with him because we refused to pay Mane's wages or Zaha's transfer fee. What is Sissoko's transfer value now ? What are Mane and Zaha's ? I just don't see Daniel Levy as the business genius that the BSoDL want to promote. To my mind he is the Philip Hammond of football chairmen, efficient at dealing with expenses but utterly lacking any vision.

I get just as annoyed as people who criticise Levy and then, when debated about it, say that fans who like Levy are blindly defending him. It shuts down any sort of debate about the pros and cons which is a shame.

I totally agree about the comparisons to Alan Sugar not being enough to qualify ENIC as good owners. I also don't think Levy is any kind of business genius... in fact I think that he's been pretty lucky with timings. He seems to have a very conservative approach to investment which has kept our feet on the ground whilst the transfer market has progressed into mayhem. Had they taken over in the mid-80s I think they would have seen very little progress if any, but instead they kept a fairly steady ship whilst others have been on a rollercoaster. It's a glass-half-full type of deal... some people will hate the boredom, some will appreciate the solidity.

The slow burner approach isn't very sexy of course - in fact it's pretty bloody frustrating. But for me personally, I don't just want to be able to tell my kids about when Spurs won the FA cup back in 2021, I want to be able to take them to watch Spurs win the cup multiple times. Winning a trophy does not guarantee that you win more, but building the club as whole should give you a good platform to win many.

The Sissoko point is an interesting one. You complained about the club not buying anyone this year but also complained about the club panic buying Sissoko. I'm not sure what you want, but this is a feeling had by many fans.

I was pissed off about signing Sissoko at the time, one of Levy's more stupid moves in my opinion. I didn't think he was worth that much money and that the transfer was made simply to try and keep fans happy. If Mane and Zaha were out of reach that is fine - I don't believe that the club should over-extend itself for a single player - but don't sign a second rate player just to appease the fans.

My general opinion is that you have to look at all of these things in combination because that's how life works. You don't spend money only on players because that model isn't sustainable. You don't spend huge on a single player because that will impact other player's contracts which will see them unhappy or see the budget inflate out of control. You don't spend for the sake of spending because that limits potential future spending which might be more critical at the time.
 
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