Liverpool Vs Tottenham: Match Thread

[spursbhoy67]

It isn't harping. It's called analysing what we have and realising what we have offer us no value and reap us no benefit to the tune of 50m. Poch is reluctant to use them, that is damning.

If I knew who we would buy then I'd be the Head of Recruitment at spurs. It isn't my job to know who to buy but one thing is for sure, it doesn't take a scientist to know that we spunked the cash up against a wall when we can't afford to.

I look at Southampton and envy how they recruit. Yes there may be one or two duds but not 50m worth of duds. They recognise their limits and they really delve into what competencies and skill set they require then go out and get that. Yet we go out and scramble on deadline day for a 30m player who even now isn't and never will be in the first team

Southampton's recruiting and scouting policy was a necessity based on the fact the club went into administration and was relegated to the third division. They have strict player scouting and signing parameters in place based on the long term financial survival of the club.

They sign players with potential in the hopes they develop and can be sold on for profit. There is no demand from the board to be a top four club, to be a title winning club, to win trophies or to be in Europe every year. They are not operating under the same pressures as a club like Tottenham.

They took the likes of Wanyama, Forster and Van Dijk from Celtic when others hesitated. They could afford to take the risk on players from Scotland because their model allowed it. I was laughed at on here about four years ago when I mentioned Wanyama as a possible Spurs target because we needed to be signing better players or for more money.

Some clubs would rather spend 30m on a player than sign him as an unknown. Makes no sense, but the business model and PR department requires it. I know of another club in the top four that wanted to sign Dele Alli, but didn't because the fans would have been up in arms had their new signing been a 5m quid player from the Championship.

Lamela was once considered a dud, still is by some members of the media, but now his value is increasing as he is missing from the line up. Our three new signings could all be Lamellas in the making.

 

[bsinghd]

Ben Davies and Eric Dier in defence says it all. Dier always wants to take extra touches regardless of how much pressure is being applied, he's done it in nearly every game that he's played and someone needs to speak to him.

Davies is just not good enough, he struggles to get forward and doesn't have enough money pace. I've always thought he was good defensively but yesterday was shambolic, no idea where the runners were or making sure he was in the corrrect position and he seems more worried about his hair than doing his job.

These problems could have been avoided had Poch reverted to the back 3 we played with when we were tearing teams apart. An injury to Vertonghen shouldn't mean a change of formation as Wimmer can do the same job. The whole team seemed comfortable with a back 3.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

dropping wanyama? poch being inapt? this forum has changed a lot since a month ago where not even Isco would have gotten into our team

Must say, reading some of the posts in the Isco thread cracked me up. Love the changeable nature of some of our fans and how complete they thought our team was.

 

[Hazardousman]

Do you think it would have been the same if we had Rose and Verts fit?

I don't, I think we would have gone toe to toe with them, problem is though mate, like I said yesterday, is we can't just fall to pieces the second we lose two players.

If that's the case then our depth isn't good enough and again, who's fault is that?

We have to adapt in these situations, Poch's game management yesterday was bad, the way he approached the game just had us on the backfoot from the moment the whistle was blown, the way we set ourselves up to approach the game was asking for trouble.

At the very least we could have just played defensively and trained on that style for the week before the game, it just sort of feels like Poch only has one approach and if it doesn't work then we are out of ideas?

What were we training on the week prior? Surely he must have known what Liverpool were going to do? Is the fact he didn't change anything an admittance of us not having good enough depth? Or is it him being stubborn and trying to stick to the philosophy irrespective of if it will work or not?i

The reality is we weren't even competitive yesterday and irrespective of injuries that is a fact, we looked like passengers.

We either adapt in certain games when we have injuries or the tactics require a different approach or this will keep happening.

Like many say here when we lose or draw to teams in the lower half of the table "We can't be expected to turn up and wipe the floor with every single team" well someone needs to give that memo to Poch because yesterday we rolled up expecting to impose ourselves on a wounded animal we haven't managed to beat once under Poch and away from home with what seemed like no preparation.

And Poch has essentially pushed all the blame on the players, I take issue with that, it was as much his fault as theirs.

 

[richard_gleeson]

Watched a really good programme straight after the match. it was called terry and gerrard on bt sport. Gave a great insight into what made the best managers (benitez, mourinho), and basically they had the mentality in the big away games that "we're not getting beat today". They also had big dressing room players. e.g terry always had lampard and drogba backing him up, and gerrard always relied on carraghers influence. I feel like we massively lack these type of personalities in our team, and also we should concentrate on being super solid and not getting beat in these big away games.

 

[Hazardousman]

I have a similar pessimistic inclination, of course. I think anyone who watched us through the barron, desperate Graham, Gross and Ramos years has that same pessimism bubbling always close the surface - even the BMJ era was glossed with horrible memories of losses snatched from the jaws of victory - I still, with very little effort, can convince myself that we will concede everytime the ball crosses the halfway line into our half - I still get nervous at the mere sight of a throw in 40 yards from our goal - but we're not that same team, not that same club.

The result at Newcastle was vintage Spurs, a sort of sick throwback to the days of a team punctuated with as many Tarrico's as there was Ginola's, so of course it made everyone with any memory of seeing us blitz a team one week with wonder goals only to get roundly outfoxed 7 days later at home to Sheffield Wednesday after Chris Perry or some other clown got caught ballwatching, think to themselves "Oh Jesus, I've seen this before. I already know how this ends. It ends like that movie Cool Runnings, if the bobsleigh when it had flipped over had exploded on impact in a massive fireball killing everyone in it instantly, the Jamican team's burnt corpses strewn about the snow like burnt sausages in at Siberian prison barbeque."

But it shouldn't let it effect us or we'll be forever unable to lose with anything even remotely close to composure or a sense of reason, never able to put a defeat in it's real context and not view it as a harbinger of some presumed, imment return to a life of watching us stumble to a mid-table finish, one eye on the fair play league to see if our disciplinary record was spotless enough to have us slip in the backdoor to a thoroughly undeserved UEFA Cup place in which we would simply hold no other purpose than to make up the numbers.

But we're a long way from that. It's a very young team - kids. And the draw at Chelsea knocked the stuffing out of them and they suffered for the remainder of games. But, really, I think they're stronger than that. It's all learning. I'm confident that they'll be fine - we have to remember that the squad aren't plagued by the memories our supporters are. They'll be fine. There's not a manager in world football I'd have in there instead of Poch. Can't ask for much more if you ask me? We'll be fine. These lads will be fucking fuming at that result and I can't see what occured at the tail end of last season happening again - and hell, even if it does, I really don't think it will be from a lack of spirit or confidence. This team knows how to get angry. Anger's good after a defeat. We haven't had an angry team for a long time. And anger felt on the field as much as the terraces, is exactly what these club needs, and I think has, right now.

You make some very good points mate, I enjoyed reading that, gave me a little perspective, I think it is everything you have described, the years of supporting us since I was a young child has sort of built this fear into me, it's ingrained, I think it will take a while to subside, as long as we are on an upwards trend then things are good.

I do believe in Poch but I think, just like our players, he is young and has a lot to learn, if we can keep them all together and the manager eventually it will all fall into place.

I think once we win the first trophy and get that monkey off our back a lot will change, often it just takes that and knowing you have the mental strength to do it, to push you on to the next level.

I just hope we can do it while we still have all these players and this manager or it will be a huge missed opportunity.

 

[homer hotspur]

Who knows. But it has to happen. I think we might find it difficult for at least the first 10 games - but the fact that there will routinely be 60,000 Spurs fans cheering the team on every second week, ultimately I would hope, would mean that every home game will very quickly begin to be relished by the players on the field. Imagine drawing away to Chelsea and thinking, "Wait til we get you twats at Wembly with a fucking army of Spurs fans." We'll have an amount of fans that no opposition will have played in the presence of before. I'm excited by the prospect, despite the blatant problems that may arise.

The trouble is that, if we do find it difficult for at least the first 10 home games( which I think we will), we are going to be mid-table at best.

 

[Good Doctor M]

The trouble is that, if we do find it difficult for at least the first 10 home games( which I think we will), we are going to be mid-table at best.

Maybe, and if that's the case (can't see it personally - for us to nose-dive to even Everton's level the players would have to suffer an absurd amount - and remember, we've had three games already to familiarise ourselves with Wembly and more to come) but what we would have, if say we were properly stuttering come Christmas time and Top 4 had become a pipe-dream, is an opportunity to give whatever cups we are involved in a proper crack.

Realistically, the worst we would finish would be 6th. As bad as we could suffer, I just don't see us cocking it up completely and having any worse a season than say, Everton, Southampton, Stoke, or any of those clubs who periodically sniff around the fringes of the consistent Top 6.

We'll not be at the Lane, but we're not suddenly going to become a shit side. And remember - the fans. Imagine the noise that will be at the NLD at Wembly. I can't wait to be honest. I think it's going to be a really fun season and we should enjoy it as fans, not be frightened.

 

[homer hotspur]

Maybe, and if that's the case (can't see it personally - for us to nose-dive to even Everton's level the players would have to suffer an absurd amount - and remember, we've had three games already to familiarise ourselves with Wembly and more to come) but what we would have, if say we were properly stuttering come Christmas time and Top 4 had become a pipe-dream, is an opportunity to give whatever cups we are involved in a proper crack.

Realistically, the worst we would finish would be 6th. As bad as we could suffer, I just don't see us cocking it up completely and having any worse a season than say, Everton, Southampton, Stoke, or any of those clubs who periodically sniff around the fringes of the consistent Top 6.

We'll not be at the Lane, but we're not suddenly going to become a shit side. And remember - the fans. Imagine the noise that will be at the NLD at Wembly. I can't wait to be honest. I think it's going to be a really fun season and we should enjoy it as fans, not be frightened.

Can I have some of what you're on! I hope you are right of course.

 

[hughy]

Must say, reading some of the posts in the Isco thread cracked me up. Love the changeable nature of some of our fans and how complete they thought our team was.

It would be interesting to read the posts where you pulled them up on this at the time. Any chance you could link us to them?

 

[Good Doctor M]

Can I have some of what you're on! I hope you are right of course.

I'm not ON anything. I'm just trying to be rational. Mid-table would see us have a season finishing below, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, at least and then, if you take the league now as an indicator you'd be looking at our rivals as Everton, West Brom, Stoke, West Ham and Burnley. So, really, let's be honest - if we were playing home games at the Emirates in front of a crowd of Arsenal fans every week I'd still expect us to be cruising past that second set of teams. We won't become a bad team overnight - we're 2nd in the league. We're not going to roll over and have our balls rubbed next season by anyone, but I don't see a full on castration either. I still would expect us to challange for Top 4, even if I reckon we may well fall just a little short.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

It would be interesting to read the posts where you pulled them up on this at the time. Any chance you could link us to them?

Don't really understand the point your trying to make here? Are you clumsily trying to suggest that I am only now posting this point because we lost a game but at the time I didn't say anything because I agreed with them? I have posted enough times on this forum over the last year plus saying we needed an Isco or the like and I have never once altered that opinion. I have never had the desire, or claimed, to have pulled up an individual poster if they thought our team was complete, everyone has a right to an opinion and I don't have the time to discuss with everyone were mine and theirs diverge even I wanted to. I am really not sure what your problem is exactly but if you wish to clarify without being sarcatic then please do.

 

[hughy]

Don't really understand the point your trying to make here? Are you clumsily trying to suggest that I am only now posting this point because we lost a game but at the time I didn't say anything because I agreed with them? I have posted enough times on this forum over the last year plus saying we needed an Isco or the like and I have never once altered that opinion. I have never had the desire, or claimed, to have pulled up an individual poster if they thought our team was complete, everyone has a right to an opinion and I don't have the time to discuss with everyone were mine and theirs diverge even I wanted to. I am really not sure what your problem is exactly but if you wish to clarify without being sarcatic then please do.

So what's the point now scrutinising people's opinions in hindsight then if everyone's entitled to them?

As it happens I'm in total agreement with you that we need a player like Isco, but I don't feel the need to make stabby comments which are ultimately achieving or proving absolutely sod all.

 

[UbeAstard]

Davies and Dier are very average players, we never got into the game.

I'm disagreeing on Dier.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

So what's the point now scrutinising people's opinions in hindsight then if everyone's entitled to them?

As it happens I'm in total agreement with you that we need a player like Isco, but I don't feel the need to make stabby comments which are ultimately achieving or proving absolutely sod all.

I was agreeing with someone else, I didn't write the original post. I was making a general comment about general comments, I didn't pull out an indervidul post or poster, I certainly wouldn't say I was scrutinising anyone. We are a massive football club and a very, very big web community, saying some of us are changeable is not really a stabby comment, it sort of goes without saying with sports fans in general. I also think you could pull out 90% of posts from the match day thread as being pointless, meaningless and silly.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

What does poch see in sissoko?

Paul Mitchell's resignation ?

 

[spursbhoy67]

You make some very good points mate, I enjoyed reading that, gave me a little perspective, I think it is everything you have described, the years of supporting us since I was a young child has sort of built this fear into me, it's ingrained, I think it will take a while to subside, as long as we are on an upwards trend then things are good.

I do believe in Poch but I think, just like our players, he is young and has a lot to learn, if we can keep them all together and the manager eventually it will all fall into place.

I think once we win the first trophy and get that monkey off our back a lot will change, often it just takes that and knowing you have the mental strength to do it, to push you on to the next level.

I just hope we can do it while we still have all these players and this manager or it will be a huge missed opportunity.

I have said for a long time that in order to become a winning club with a winning mentality we have to actually win trophies. Success breathes success and gives players a belief for the next big game.

Watch Man Utd kick on in the second half of the season if they win the League Cup.

We don't have many players who have won anything. They need to get one under their belt. The manager too.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I can totally see why Poch is playing a back 4. Davies will no way work as a wing back - this is a system that relies on quick athletic full backs - which he is clearly not.

Still though, I don't totally believe the formation was at fault yesterday - it was more Poch and our players not adapting to the obvious dangers Liverpool were posing us quick enough. Son/Dembele needed to help Davies more, Alli should have dropped in and helped the midfield out rather than playing as a striker. These are simple in game changes which would have at least made us a bit more solid while we worked out how to hurt them. Instead we just laid there and allowed them to violate us repeatedly without fighting back for long periods.

 

[slartibartfast]

I can totally see why Poch is playing a back 4. Davies will no way work as a wing back - this is a system that relies on quick athletic full backs - which he is clearly not.

Still though, I don't totally believe the formation was at fault yesterday - it was more Poch and our players not adapting to the obvious dangers Liverpool were posing us quick enough. Son/Dembele needed to help Davies more, Alli should have dropped in and helped the midfield out rather than playing as a striker. These are simple in game changes which would have at least made us a bit more solid while we worked out how to hurt them. Instead we just laid there and allowed them to violate us repeatedly without fighting back for long periods.

Bang on. But also sometimes you just cannot continually try and play out from the back. If you're under pressure you need to get it up the pitch a few times and they'll drop, they'll have to, and then you can play when there's space.
They had Lucas in defence ffs and we never exposed that weakness once.
We get freekicks in their half and do we put it into their goal area to expose this weakness? No, it goes backwards EVERY FKIN TIME I might add to a centerback, to a full back, to the goal keeper who then throws it out to someone whos facing the wrong way with 2 players up his arse.
It's so stupid its unbelievable.
We played right into their hands.
I knew we'd do it so how doesnt Poch?
Its obvious.
You can't play tippy tappy around your own goal area ALL THE TIME.
90% of the time we can but this wasn't one of those times.
We've got to mix it up.
Anyone who starts shouting dinosaur football or sunday league frankly don't know what the fk they're talking about. If you're under pressure in your own goal area you can either clear it or pick it out the back of your own fkin net like we did.

 

[danielneeds]

Ben Davies and Eric Dier in defence says it all. Dier always wants to take extra touches regardless of how much pressure is being applied, he's done it in nearly every game that he's played and someone needs to speak to him.

Davies is just not good enough, he struggles to get forward and doesn't have enough money pace. I've always thought he was good defensively but yesterday was shambolic, no idea where the runners were or making sure he was in the corrrect position and he seems more worried about his hair than doing his job.

These problems could have been avoided had Poch reverted to the back 3 we played with when we were tearing teams apart. An injury to Vertonghen shouldn't mean a change of formation as Wimmer can do the same job. The whole team seemed comfortable with a back 3.

The stick Davies is gettting on here... If you go back a couple of years the same characters would have been giving it out to Danny Rose.

Davies is out of form, low on confidence, and didn't play very well, but there simply aren't many in the PL who have a better reserve LB.

The issue I have with him is that he's such a different type of player to Rose, especially since he started playing at CB for Wales. I really like it in a squad if you have players of similar characteristics to come in for your 1st choices, even if they aren't quite as good. So for Rose, I'd like his understudy to have some pace, be tenacious, and a good engine for getting up and down.