Player Watch: Marcus Edwards

[DJS]

I don't get why TOB is being touted to be playing yet Edwards isn't. I would have thought in order to get him up to speed from injury minutes in the cups against senior footballers is what will help the transition.

Probably as in some ways there's less pressure on the role in team TOB would need to play whereas with Edwards he would be expected to score a hat trick and set 6 goals up otherwise would be written off as overrated.

#truestory

#hashtagsareshitasistwitter

 

[DanielCHillier]

Quoting players in a league which is renowned for not giving youth much of chance isn't really proving much.

Ouseman Dembele was 17, Mbappe was 17, Messi was 18 (16 proper debut in a friendly), Pogba was 18, Neymar 17.

Think you've missed the point here.

 

[TaoistMonkey]

Nah, we just have different interpretations of what spamming a thread means and, for me, yours was dictionary definition. Fully accept I'm a dick bag though so you got me on that part, just the latter than you're wrong on which is an improvement for you

Show me your dictionary definition of Spam then. I'll pass it on to the other Mods

 

[Larryjanta]

Show me your dictionary definition of Spam then. I'll pass it on to the other Mods

Maybe we just need a shitposting rating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shitposting

 

[TaoistMonkey]

Maybe we just need a shitposting rating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shitposting

Ahh so you're idea of "Spam" is a shit post?

Fair enough. You're wrong, but fair enough.

 

[JamieSpursCommunityUser]

Quoting players in a league which is renowned for not giving youth much of chance isn't really proving much.

Ouseman Dembele was 17, Mbappe was 17, Messi was 18 (16 proper debut in a friendly), Pogba was 18, Neymar 17.

Maybe today the PL isn't renowned for blooding youngsters, but that wasn't the case in the 90s.

As others have said, players develop at different ages.

Giggs was from Becks and Scholes year group and yet Fergie made him a first team regular 3 years earlier at 17.

Nobody ever accused Fergie of harming their development by holding them back. Would Becks, Scholes, and Neville have been better players had they had more cup minutes a bit earlier? Maybe it was that hunger that drove them on, who knows.

Personally I'm eager to see Edwards on the bench, in pure technical terms he's one of the best players at the club - but I'm prepared to trust Poch's judgement on this one.

His explanation yesterday seemed pretty reasonable to me.

 

[mill]

Maybe today the PL isn't renowned for blooding youngsters, but that wasn't the case in the 90s.

As others have said, players develop at different ages.

Giggs was from Becks and Scholes year group and yet Fergie made him a first team regular 3 years earlier at 17.

Nobody ever accused Fergie of harming their development by holding them back. Would Becks, Scholes, and Neville have been better players had they had more cup minutes a bit earlier? Maybe it was that hunger that drove them on, who knows.

Personally I'm eager to see Edwards on the bench, in pure technical terms he's one of the best players at the club - but I'm prepared to trust Poch's judgement on this one.

His explanation yesterday seemed pretty reasonable to me.

Giggs was 2 years older than beckham, scholes, butt and Neville

 

[JamieSpursCommunityUser]

Giggs was 2 years older than beckham, scholes, butt and Neville

That's true. He's 12-18 months older, though they were in the same youth team.

I'm talking about the ages they became first team regulars.

Giggs the 91-92 season at 17.

Becks, Scholes, Neville all at around 19/20, the 95-96 season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Although I don't completely disagree, I'm not the one saying "giving them a chance too early can set them back is bullshit", nor am I saying " far far more are ruined by not getting early chances" so it's not on me to prove anything.

As I say in every one of these debates(and I'm yet to see one post where I'm proved wrong), not one young player that we have let go in the last 10 years, heck even 15 years has gone on to prove the decision to move them on was wrong. So either they weren't up to the required standard or didn't have enough drive in them to push on after being let go. Other clubs might have young players come back to bite them on the arse, but we don't.



The only players there you can really compare to Edwards size wise are Neymar who played wide which is totally different to playing central physically speaking, and Messi who was pumped full of growth enhancement, drugs in order to bulk him up. Again though it's not about size it's about core strength, that Marcus is lacking.

Fwiw I am very much of the opinion he will make it, but as anyone who has coached kids(at any age) can testify....They all develop at different rates both mentally and physically. What may be right for one may be too early or too demanding for another. Doesn't mean they both won't get to exactly the same place in the end, just that one might take a little longer to get there.

I personally don't think it is that simple as just saying "he never went on to be a superstar, therefore we haven't got it wrong". Adam Smith, Milos Veljkovic, Alex Pritchard, Josh Onomah and Harry Winks could all have performed the squad functions that players like Naughton/Trippier/Wimmer/Chiriches/Fazio/Nkoudou/Njie/Sissoko have. That could have saved us 80m plus another what 20m (?) in wages. Which could in turn have been used to strengthen the team. I am pretty sure that all of those players wouldn't have compromised our team any more than any of those purchased players, and maybe, given the opportunity to play with better standard players and a better coach on a regular basis, might just have gone on to be better players themselves. Yuri Berchiche is also now playing LB for PSG, not a position we've always been strong in.

I think it's also very easy to take the stance that because a player hasn't gone on to have some kind of decent career, it's always indicative of a lack of talent or desire and the club have made a good decision. That will of course be true often, but I believe that very good players, who could easily have good careers at PL level, won't have, simply because they don't get the breaks or chances at the right stage of development, the drop into lower echelons, where it's overcrowded with shitkickers and scrappers and is so much harder climb back up as PL clubs rarely look to lower leagues to buy. Look at the example of Yuri Berchiche I gave above, now playing LB in one of the best sides in Europe, who'd have thought that after we let him go.

 

[IGSpur]

As I say in every one of these debates(and I'm yet to see one post where I'm proved wrong), not one young player that we have let go in the last 10 years, heck even 15 years has gone on to prove the decision to move them on was wrong. So either they weren't up to the required standard or didn't have enough drive in them to push on after being let go. Other clubs might have young players come back to bite them on the arse, but we don't.

Personally this here is the biggest problem in youth football, the belief that as noone has come through it means they weren't good enough. Surely you also acknowledge that the PL has a major problem in bringing through academy players. Coaches from other countries have acknowledged that the English academies are producing better players than other countries, and I've read foreign coaches say some of the English teams being produced are the best they've ever seen. Combine that with the fact that the English youth teams swept all before them over the summer, not to mention u17 wins back in '14 and '10, and English club sides winning UEFA competitions and other youth tournaments, why are France, Germany and Spain managing to bring through players we eventually all crave to buy but ours are apparently not good enough.

You can't seriously believe that just because a player doesn't make it somewhere else that it's because they weren't good enough for that club, Do you believe that every single Chelsea youth player that has played in all of their FA Youth Cup wins and UYL wins just weren't good enough. Or do you think maybe it isn't a simple meritocracy working in football. There will always be an element of risk playing a young player and it's this element of risk and PL managers not being bold/brave enough to give players a chance, that means we look to the foreign players, that our own players showed they were better than from u15s to u18s.

Their are many reasons why academy players get released who were initially good enough but never bit the club on the arse. A lot of the reasons are reasons given for why we need to give new signings patience. It could be low confidence after having no faith shown in them, being young and taking time to establish at a new club, playing a new style of football, not enough time having been released at 22, or not playing with similar quality players around them. If I asked why everyone was so keen to buy Schneiderlin and Clasie as look at them now, everyone would come up with a list of excuses why they might not have performed. Being good somewhere doesn't instantly mean it will fit somewhere else. Look at Pritchard, I accept he had his injuries but he went to a club and wasn't played for 6 months as the manager didn't have the ball to play with ability. The manager was sacked and Pritchard became Norwich's best player and fans of the opposition clubs were singing 'he's too good for you' to Norwich to mock them.

If Terry, Neville, Beckham, Scholes et al came through today they would not be PL footballers, same goes for King. PL managers can hide behind the fact that no fan can question their decisions and fans will always have ready made excuses for why a player can't play. Too close to relegation, too close to a title, no big enough, not fit enough, poor mentality, not working hard enough, not a big enough lead to bring them on, not important enough minutes, not experienced enough, only played against kids so on and so forth. I'm sure this doesn't affect other European leagues.

Do you believe that English academy players are inferior to their contemporaries, and if not, why do you think they aren't making it into the PL? Surely it's not that they aren't good enough.

Sherwood took Bentaleb from academy to first team football which was a success and tried to get others involved, why aren't any other PL managers as bold? Mourinho never brings talent through, has he never ever had one player good enough for PL football. I just don't understand why managers judgement is just taken as gospel.

https://twitter.com/TacticallyInept/status/904804524187148288

I find this interesting. An funnily enough the time when English football was strongest is when the best teams had quite a few English and/or academy players in there first 11. Since, English football has invested more money in academies and are producing better players than they ever have, yet those players aren't good enough now?

EDIT-not ranting at you Trix, just general issues in English football, that are evident within our club too

 

[Johnny J]

Personally this here is the biggest problem in youth football, the belief that as noone has come through it means they weren't good enough. Surely you also acknowledge that the PL has a major problem in bringing through academy players. Coaches from other countries have acknowledged that the English academies are producing better players than other countries, and I've read foreign coaches say some of the English teams being produced are the best they've ever seen. Combine that with the fact that the English youth teams swept all before them over the summer, not to mention u17 wins back in '14 and '10, and English club sides winning UEFA competitions and other youth tournaments, why are France, Germany and Spain managing to bring through players we eventually all crave to buy but ours are apparently not good enough.

You can't seriously believe that just because a player doesn't make it somewhere else that it's because they weren't good enough for that club, Do you believe that every single Chelsea youth player that has played in all of their FA Youth Cup wins and UYL wins just weren't good enough. Or do you think maybe it isn't a simple meritocracy working in football. There will always be an element of risk playing a young player and it's this element of risk and PL managers not being bold/brave enough to give players a chance, that means we look to the foreign players, that our own players showed they were better than from u15s to u18s.

Their are many reasons why academy players get released who were initially good enough but never bit the club on the arse. A lot of the reasons are reasons given for why we need to give new signings patience. It could be low confidence after having no faith shown in them, being young and taking time to establish at a new club, playing a new style of football, not enough time having been released at 22, or not playing with similar quality players around them. If I asked why everyone was so keen to buy Schneiderlin and Clasie as look at them now, everyone would come up with a list of excuses why they might not have performed. Being good somewhere doesn't instantly mean it will fit somewhere else. Look at Pritchard, I accept he had his injuries but he went to a club and wasn't played for 6 months as the manager didn't have the ball to play with ability. The manager was sacked and Pritchard became Norwich's best player and fans of the opposition clubs were singing 'he's too good for you' to Norwich to mock them.

If Terry, Neville, Beckham, Scholes et al came through today they would not be PL footballers, same goes for King. PL managers can hide behind the fact that no fan can question their decisions and fans will always have ready made excuses for why a player can't play. Too close to relegation, too close to a title, no big enough, not fit enough, poor mentality, not working hard enough, not a big enough lead to bring them on, not important enough minutes, not experienced enough, only played against kids so on and so forth. I'm sure this doesn't affect other European leagues.

Do you believe that English academy players are inferior to their contemporaries, and if not, why do you think they aren't making it into the PL? Surely it's not that they aren't good enough.

Sherwood took Bentaleb from academy to first team football which was a success and tried to get others involved, why aren't any other PL managers as bold? Mourinho never brings talent through, has he never ever had one player good enough for PL football. I just don't understand why managers judgement is just taken as gospel.

https://twitter.com/TacticallyInept/status/904804524187148288

I find this interesting. An funnily enough the time when English football was strongest is when the best teams had quite a few English and/or academy players in there first 11. Since, English football has invested more money in academies and are producing better players than they ever have, yet those players aren't good enough now?

EDIT-not ranting at you Trix, just general issues in English football, that are evident within our club too

Great post.

Mourinho doesn't bring through young players because he doesn't have time. He spends a shitload, duly wins trophies, and then fucks off/gets sacked after a few years when he inevitably falls out with the owner/chairman and half the squad.

 

[C0YS]

Great post.

Mourinho doesn't bring through young players because he doesn't have time. He spends a shitload, duly wins trophies, and then fucks off/gets sacked after a few years when he inevitably falls out with the owner/chairman and half the squad.

Not only doesn't he have the time he really doesn't care. He wants players who are the finished article and our disciplined. He is always in a club that can back him financially.

I'd really like to see him manage in a smaller club struggling to stay up (I know he has done in the past). Because I'm pretty sure he will be a bit like Pulis styled of managment. Similarly I'd like to see him in a Dortmund, Athletico or even a Tottenham like club. Because it would tell us a lot about him as a manager, maybe then he would look to youth I'm not sure.

 

[swarvsta]

I personally don't think it is that simple as just saying "he never went on to be a superstar, therefore we haven't got it wrong". Adam Smith, Milos Veljkovic, Alex Pritchard, Josh Onomah and Harry Winks could all have performed the squad functions that players like Naughton/Trippier/Wimmer/Chiriches/Fazio/Nkoudou/Njie/Sissoko have. That could have saved us 80m plus another what 20m (?) in wages. Which could in turn have been used to strengthen the team. I am pretty sure that all of those players wouldn't have compromised our team any more than any of those purchased players, and maybe, given the opportunity to play with better standard players and a better coach on a regular basis, might just have gone on to be better players themselves. Yuri Berchiche is also now playing LB for PSG, not a position we've always been strong in.

I think it's also very easy to take the stance that because a player hasn't gone on to have some kind of decent career, it's always indicative of a lack of talent or desire and the club have made a good decision. That will of course be true often, but I believe that very good players, who could easily have good careers at PL level, won't have, simply because they don't get the breaks or chances at the right stage of development, the drop into lower echelons, where it's overcrowded with shitkickers and scrappers and is so much harder climb back up as PL clubs rarely look to lower leagues to buy. Look at the example of Yuri Berchiche I gave above, now playing LB in one of the best sides in Europe, who'd have thought that after we let him go.

Wow, you found an example of a player that we let go at 19, who has finally made it to a 'top-level' club at 27. He is also unlikely to start many games at PSG unless he can improve his tactical awareness and fitness levels.

Your obsession with blooding youth is admirable, but I think it makes you lose sight of the facts.

I could pose you the opposite question of 'how many players have we willingly let go from our youth teams who became great players?' Not many. Not many at all.

We have looked to bring in promising young talent from all other the world. Some of it has worked, some not.

I get what you are saying about needing a break, but I firmly believe the best will still make it, because they have that determination to do so.

All the elite players have one thing in common - they work hard and train harder than anyone. You can read up on Ronaldo, Messi and Suarez as examples of that.

Maybe Poch wants to mentally test these players. He wants Edwards to respond in the right way. Hopefully he will accept it, work even harder and not whinge about it like some people are.

To coin a famous saying:

"A rejection is nothing more than a necessary step in the pursuit of success."

 

[Trix]

Personally this here is the biggest problem in youth football, the belief that as noone has come through it means they weren't good enough. Surely you also acknowledge that the PL has a major problem in bringing through academy players. Coaches from other countries have acknowledged that the English academies are producing better players than other countries, and I've read foreign coaches say some of the English teams being produced are the best they've ever seen. Combine that with the fact that the English youth teams swept all before them over the summer, not to mention u17 wins back in '14 and '10, and English club sides winning UEFA competitions and other youth tournaments, why are France, Germany and Spain managing to bring through players we eventually all crave to buy but ours are apparently not good enough.

You can't seriously believe that just because a player doesn't make it somewhere else that it's because they weren't good enough for that club, Do you believe that every single Chelsea youth player that has played in all of their FA Youth Cup wins and UYL wins just weren't good enough. Or do you think maybe it isn't a simple meritocracy working in football. There will always be an element of risk playing a young player and it's this element of risk and PL managers not being bold/brave enough to give players a chance, that means we look to the foreign players, that our own players showed they were better than from u15s to u18s.

Their are many reasons why academy players get released who were initially good enough but never bit the club on the arse. A lot of the reasons are reasons given for why we need to give new signings patience. It could be low confidence after having no faith shown in them, being young and taking time to establish at a new club, playing a new style of football, not enough time having been released at 22, or not playing with similar quality players around them. If I asked why everyone was so keen to buy Schneiderlin and Clasie as look at them now, everyone would come up with a list of excuses why they might not have performed. Being good somewhere doesn't instantly mean it will fit somewhere else. Look at Pritchard, I accept he had his injuries but he went to a club and wasn't played for 6 months as the manager didn't have the ball to play with ability. The manager was sacked and Pritchard became Norwich's best player and fans of the opposition clubs were singing 'he's too good for you' to Norwich to mock them.

If Terry, Neville, Beckham, Scholes et al came through today they would not be PL footballers, same goes for King. PL managers can hide behind the fact that no fan can question their decisions and fans will always have ready made excuses for why a player can't play. Too close to relegation, too close to a title, no big enough, not fit enough, poor mentality, not working hard enough, not a big enough lead to bring them on, not important enough minutes, not experienced enough, only played against kids so on and so forth. I'm sure this doesn't affect other European leagues.

Do you believe that English academy players are inferior to their contemporaries, and if not, why do you think they aren't making it into the PL? Surely it's not that they aren't good enough.

Sherwood took Bentaleb from academy to first team football which was a success and tried to get others involved, why aren't any other PL managers as bold? Mourinho never brings talent through, has he never ever had one player good enough for PL football. I just don't understand why managers judgement is just taken as gospel.

https://twitter.com/TacticallyInept/status/904804524187148288

I find this interesting. An funnily enough the time when English football was strongest is when the best teams had quite a few English and/or academy players in there first 11. Since, English football has invested more money in academies and are producing better players than they ever have, yet those players aren't good enough now?

EDIT-not ranting at you Trix, just general issues in English football, that are evident within our club too

Not sure why you and others keep quoting my post and referencing what other clubs are doing re their youth players when I'm talking specifically about Spurs. I stand by the point I made, none of the players we have released in the last 15 years have gone on to achieve anything of note, and none of them on what we have seen since would be close to a fist team birth with us now. Keep going on about Chelsea and other clubs is pointless because we DO give youth opportunities, and we DO opporate entirely different in our philosophy.

As for the @Bus-Conductor comment that some of these young players could go on to fulfill successful squad spots instead of Fazio etc....

Firstly we have plenty of time to assess these kids playing every day against their peers. So we know exactly what they are capable of. The players we bring in that end up as squad fillers are IMO rarely brought in on that remit, it's just that for one reason or another I just doesn't work out. I can also tell you as a fact a fair few of these kids want to leave for first team Football, and I applaud them for that. You say we should keep them instead of buying the likes of Fazio etc, but the fact is they don't want to just play a handful of games every year. Believe it or not it is a two way street, not just a case of the club wanting all these players out in order to bring in the next Jonny foreigner.

 

[sly1]

I personally don't think it is that simple as just saying "he never went on to be a superstar, therefore we haven't got it wrong". Adam Smith, Milos Veljkovic, Alex Pritchard, Josh Onomah and Harry Winks could all have performed the squad functions that players like Naughton/Trippier/Wimmer/Chiriches/Fazio/Nkoudou/Njie/Sissoko have. That could have saved us 80m plus another what 20m (?) in wages. Which could in turn have been used to strengthen the team. I am pretty sure that all of those players wouldn't have compromised our team any more than any of those purchased players, and maybe, given the opportunity to play with better standard players and a better coach on a regular basis, might just have gone on to be better players themselves. Yuri Berchiche is also now playing LB for PSG, not a position we've always been strong in.

...

The problem is that this argument comes down to nothing more than "we should buy good players instead of bad players". That's not a strategy, that's just wishful thinking and hindsight.

If Aldeweireld and Eriksen had not been such a success, you would probably be saying how obvious it is that we should have used CCV and Pritchard instead of buying them and used the money saved to strengthen the team.

 

[Westmorland]

We can compete up to under 19 level but when they get to under 21 the difference is quite obvious. Foreign players have far more first team games under their belt. It seems some young players have seen the light and are running down their contracts and leaving. Solanke and Willock..to Liverpool and Benfica.Also another from Arsenal went to Wolfsburg for 2m. Will be interesting to see if Kirby gets into Palace team in next two years . Don't think he intended to end up there when he left us.?

 

[The Apprentice]

It will be interesting to see how this thread pans out in 3-4 years time, considering we currently have the most talented array of youngsters we've ever had.

 

[Blake Griffin]

We can compete up to under 19 level but when they get to under 21 the difference is quite obvious. Foreign players have far more first team games under their belt. It seems some young players have seen the light and are running down their contracts and leaving. Solanke and Willock..to Liverpool and Benfica.Also another from Arsenal went to Wolfsburg for 2m. Will be interesting to see if Kirby gets into Palace team in next two years . Don't think he intended to end up there when he left us.?

ajax tried to sign edwards in the summer too, don't think anyone could've blamed him had he gone but thankfully he decided to stay.

 

[IGSpur]

Not sure why you and others keep quoting my post and referencing what other clubs are doing re their youth players when I'm talking specifically about Spurs. I stand by the point I made, none of the players we have released in the last 15 years have gone on to achieve anything of note, and none of them on what we have seen since would be close to a fist team birth with us now. Keep going on about Chelsea and other clubs is pointless because we DO give youth opportunities, and we DO opporate entirely different in our philosophy.

My point in addressing other clubs is that people are more willing to accept the argument when it is not personal. When I criticism other clubs, fans of our club are happier and can understand the criticism, as they aren't heavily involved emotionally. It can almost be discussed objectively. Once people agree that there is a problem, when I can then show we are no different then maybe people can start seeing things in a different way.

Contrary to what you say, our club is no different, not significantly, to any other PL clubs and the issues they have in bringing youth through, under Poch anyway. We just talk a good game. Let’s compare our club since Poch has joined to other PL clubs of similar sizes.

Let’s look at how many Premier League starts academy players have made at each club. I am using PL starts as I think everyone can agree that the PL is the main competition and if you are making starts there then it’s the only time you can really start to argue that they are seriously being rotated or considered for the first team. I am also only including players who made their competitive debuts in the 14/15 season or after, so since Poch joined. I haven’t included LC starts as the LC is used a chance to experiment and may make us look even worse. I haven’t included EL starts for the same reason, many managers used it as a 2nd eleven. Didn’t include the CL starts as PL more important but if you did again, Winks only made a couple of starts and it would make us look comparatively worse again, I’d imagine.

Bare in mind, Poch also has the advantage of being in charge for a longer period of time than any manager at any other comparable club bar Wenger, so has time to nurture and plan pathways for these academy players.

Spurs – 4 PL starts, Winks (3), KWP (1)
United – 78 PL starts, Rashford (41), Lingard (37)
Liverpool – 6 PL starts TAA (5), Woodburn (1)
Arsenal – 112 PL starts Iwobi (27), Bellerin (85)
Everton –30 PL starts Garbutt (3), Davies (21), Pennington (6),
City – 12 PL starts Iheanacho (12)
Now we all know how terrible Chelsea are but since 14/15 season, these players have gone from not playing one minutes of competitive football for any club to now playing
Christensen 1 start for Chelsea and 1000s of Bundesliga minutes
Palace – RLC (3)
Swansea – Abraham (5)

As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players. I have seen more people critical of AVB at his lack of youth integration and he only last just over season whereas Poch is now in his 4th year. Why do people believe that we or Poch is any better or above any criticism of his youth integration. As I’ve pointed out in my previous post England are producing better players they ever have, and everyone agrees that there is as a massive issues in the PL re the lack of chances given to PL players, but everyone is fair game to criticise but not us.

It seems the fans use Kane to hide behind as being down to Poch. When he is where he is because of McDermott and Sherwood. Kane had made 10 starts in different competitions before Poch arrived. 6 handed to him by Sherwood who gave him a chance over an in formish Adebayor and Soldado. He had countless Football League minutes under a different regime. He was 3rd choice when Poch arrived only probably only kept as an option as an afterthought due to the games he scored in at the end of the previous session . He was then played in the competition Poch didn’t care about bagging goals, and our main strikers completely misfired. IIRC the fans had to sing his name in the PL before he got a start. Looking at Kane's goal at Villa do you think Poch is more grateful for Kane or vice versa?

Moving onto the players he actually has attempted to bring through. Well we know Poch doesn’t take anything from people he doesn’t deem as 100% committed or hardworking and wouldn’t get them to sign contracts if they weren’t talented or hardworking, so we can rule out that a lack of effort or commitment is the problem.

Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does repsonsibilty fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Despite, what he says he is now allowing Edwards to play u23s football to develop him.

He took Onomah, a player he described as special as a 17 year old. Coached him for 2 years, despite, Josh never playing anywhere but CM Poch saw him as a winger. He gave him ad hoc minutes over 2 seasons, played him out of position and was so adamant he was a winger he had to be convinced to let him go and prove himself as a winger by coaches that knew him best. I’d never seen Josh with so little confidence at the back end of last season. Yet he was played in CM at the u20 World Cup (cue people claiming its against kid) and was arguably Englands best players as they won it for the frist time. He then went to Aston Villa, and even Steve Bruce, who has watched Josh and ‘seen him in training as a manager’ thought he’d be best in CM, and Josh has been Villa’s best player and even some Spurs fans who didn’t ‘get him’ realized how good he could be. (I guess someone will chime in with it’s only in the Champsionship). If everyone says the manager sees them in training so knows whats best, well Bruce disagrees with Poch so is it fair to question Poch here (cue people saying Poch is a better manager (obviously) and missing the point)

Onto KWP. A player many youth watchers have been craving to get some minutes for the first team. KWP was dropped from traning with the first team last season. Youth watchers were shocked. 6 months later Poch saw the error of his ways. KWP wins the u20 World Cup, KWP gets a first ever competitive start, wins a generous MOTM, and is dropped. What could he possibly have done to be trusted for another start? I assume someone will say Poch dropped him from first team training, as some mind game, to make KWP work harder.

Now Edwards. Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does responsibility fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Now however Poch wants Edwards playing for the u23s. He's gone from coming on against Gillingham to not being physically ready. I guess we'll have to take Poch's word that he hasn't recovered from an injury a year ago despite playing matches just fine. He says he has the situation under control and I hope he does, but looks like we've drawn West Ham in next round so if his comments are anything to go by Edwards can look to start getting some minutes next season, while his contemporaries and players younger than him feature. And he was questioned for not immediately signing a contract.

CCV and Onomah. So we have previously heard that Poch would not let his best players gone on loan as they need to learn under him. Suddenly after 2 years of coaching, Poch still does not have the courage to play them, or they regressed under his training, and he changes his stance to, if they aren’t playing after 2 years they can go on loan. So essentially waste 2 years.

If Poch is allowed to go back on himself why are we not allowed to question him. Why should we just trust what the manager says just because he says it.

I would like to know at what point would people be allowed to question or criticise Poch in this area of his management. In his first year, it was he has just come in, in his 2nd year we were going for the CL, 3rd year we were going for the title so , what will it be this year. Wembley? If after his 4 years he has turned only one player into a genuine first team option, will he deserve his reputation? In his tenure we have had the strongest group of players we have ever developed and we may only have one player to show for it at the end of the season. Surely it's not all the players faults?

It seems we just put obstacle after obstacle in players' way in if they don't make it say they weren't good enough. Oh, you're a CM, play striker. Oh you're a CM go play LWB (Maitland-Niles) then people wonder why they don't show any promise not to mention that even MOTM performances mean little. Kane only got where he was constantly trying to get past obstacles. Surely if we have manager that knows a player has ability you allow them to come through rather than blocking them as if to say 'you've come this far, now over come this'. Barcelona and Bayern competed for titles and brought through players and ended up winning what is our excuse, especially when we don't have the luxury of beating competition in an arms race.

Ultimately I gain nothing from convincing anyone that an academy players is worth a chance, as only Poch makes that decision, and he isn’t going to read a forum. The only thing I hope to get is being able to question a decision he makes without someone just telling me ‘he is a God at bringing through youth players’ and any decision he makes is the correct one because he is fair and sees them in training and so on and so forth.

My passion and care about youth football is because I want to see Spurs and England win trophies in my lifetime, while we have the upper hand. I believe if Poch used our players, and was more risk averse, and interspersed signigns with genuine academy optiosn we would have a stronger squad. We’d have more players willing to step in and do a job who are committed and talented, we would have more money to make the big money signings we need to take us to a new level, and I 100% believe we will find another Kane or Rose level player in another position.

For England I believe that if the PL all had 3-4 genuine squad options from their academy provided England get a decent manager England will win a Euros or World Cup in the next 10 years.

I would love nothing more than for Poch to live upto this reputation and have egg on my face, as ultimately it would be beneficial to the team. However, until the best group of players we've ever produced have more than 4 PL starts between them under 4 years of his tenure, I reserve the right to question his judgement in this area. For what it's worth, as I say I don't think anyone would do any better than him, I wouldn't want another manager, just think it's an area that the whole of England including us need to improve.

 

[IGSpur]

We can compete up to under 19 level but when they get to under 21 the difference is quite obvious. Foreign players have far more first team games under their belt. It seems some young players have seen the light and are running down their contracts and leaving. Solanke and Willock..to Liverpool and Benfica.Also another from Arsenal went to Wolfsburg for 2m. Will be interesting to see if Kirby gets into Palace team in next two years . Don't think he intended to end up there when he left us.?

Assume you are talking about Kaylen Hinds. Again a decent player from Edwards' age group never thought he was anything special and he is beginning to get starts in the Bundesliga. Collinge and Egbo set the path and others are now following. Of course Oxford went there too. I remember a few years ago Bayern were interested in Slattery, would love to have seen how that would have turned out but Slattery has had a lot of injuries.

Really hope more make the step and start running down their contracts. For Englands sake I would love if Hudson-Odoi went abroad