Player Watch: Marcus Edwards

[IGSpur]

The problem is that this argument comes down to nothing more than "we should buy good players instead of bad players". That's not a strategy, that's just wishful thinking and hindsight.

If Aldeweireld and Eriksen had not been such a success, you would probably be saying how obvious it is that we should have used CCV and Pritchard instead of buying them and used the money saved to strengthen the team.

I understand what you're saying to an extent, but while I doubted Alderweireld signing, it was more because I didn't think we needed him than he wasn't any good. Alderweireld was a PL proven defender who had good reviews at Southampton. Not really risky, especially as he also had experience of playing with our current first choice CB at the time

Eriksen was a well-known name with a reputation wanted by City and Dortmund. Those are signings that would improve us and add instant quality.

N'Koudou, N'Jie and Sissoko can't be compared. The first 2 noone had heard of and the last noone wanted, and many still don't. And that is the point. We're taking risks and spending money on average players when we have players ready to step up from academy who don't need to adapt any more than them and potentially are as good. Noone is disputing signing quality and it not paying off, but it's the obvious squad signings that could be filled by the best of our academy that annoy me.

If we had signed Gotze and he flopped I wouldn't be complaining, same as when we signed Soldado and he flopped. When we buy Stambouli instead of giving our own a chance I get frustrated

 

[DCSPUR]

I understand what you're saying to an extent, but while I doubted Alderweireld signing, it was more because I didn't think we needed him than he wasn't any good. Alderweireld was a PL proven defender who had good reviews at Southampton. Not really risky, especially as he also had experience of playing with our current first choice CB at the time

Eriksen was a well-known name with a reputation wanted by City and Dortmund. Those are signings that would improve us and add instant quality.

N'Koudou, N'Jie and Sissoko can't be compared. The first 2 noone had heard of and the last noone wanted, and many still don't. And that is the point. We're taking risks and spending money on average players when we have players ready to step up from academy who don't need to adapt any more than them and potentially are as good. Noone is disputing signing quality and it not paying off, but it's the obvious squad signings that could be filled by the best of our academy that annoy me.

If we had signed Gotze and he flopped I wouldn't be complaining, same as when we signed Soldado and he flopped. When we buy Stambouli instead of giving our own a chance I get frustrated

generally agree with a fair bit of what you are saying and haven't been thrilled with signature of Stambo, Clinton, GKN in particular. BUT think the Winks point is not fair as i pointed out in another thread....clearly was in Poch's thinking when he got injured was a real blow.

 

[nicdic]

My point in addressing other clubs is that people are more willing to accept the argument when it is not personal. When I criticism other clubs, fans of our club are happier and can understand the criticism, as they aren't heavily involved emotionally. It can almost be discussed objectively. Once people agree that there is a problem, when I can then show we are no different then maybe people can start seeing things in a different way.

Contrary to what you say, our club is no different, not significantly, to any other PL clubs and the issues they have in bringing youth through, under Poch anyway. We just talk a good game. Let’s compare our club since Poch has joined to other PL clubs of similar sizes.

Let’s look at how many Premier League starts academy players have made at each club. I am using PL starts as I think everyone can agree that the PL is the main competition and if you are making starts there then it’s the only time you can really start to argue that they are seriously being rotated or considered for the first team. I am also only including players who made their competitive debuts in the 14/15 season or after, so since Poch joined. I haven’t included LC starts as the LC is used a chance to experiment and may make us look even worse. I haven’t included EL starts for the same reason, many managers used it as a 2nd eleven. Didn’t include the CL starts as PL more important but if you did again, Winks only made a couple of starts and it would make us look comparatively worse again, I’d imagine.

Bare in mind, Poch also has the advantage of being in charge for a longer period of time than any manager at any other comparable club bar Wenger, so has time to nurture and plan pathways for these academy players.

Spurs – 4 PL starts, Winks (3), KWP (1)
United – 78 PL starts, Rashford (41), Lingard (37)
Liverpool – 6 PL starts TAA (5), Woodburn (1)
Arsenal – 112 PL starts Iwobi (27), Bellerin (85)
Everton –30 PL starts Garbutt (3), Davies (21), Pennington (6),
City – 12 PL starts Iheanacho (12)
Now we all know how terrible Chelsea are but since 14/15 season, these players have gone from not playing one minutes of competitive football for any club to now playing
Christensen 1 start for Chelsea and 1000s of Bundesliga minutes
Palace – RLC (3)
Swansea – Abraham (5)

As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players. I have seen more people critical of AVB at his lack of youth integration and he only last just over season whereas Poch is now in his 4th year. Why do people believe that we or Poch is any better or above any criticism of his youth integration. As I’ve pointed out in my previous post England are producing better players they ever have, and everyone agrees that there is as a massive issues in the PL re the lack of chances given to PL players, but everyone is fair game to criticise but not us.

It seems the fans use Kane to hide behind as being down to Poch. When he is where he is because of McDermott and Sherwood. Kane had made 10 starts in different competitions before Poch arrived. 6 handed to him by Sherwood who gave him a chance over an in formish Adebayor and Soldado. He had countless Football League minutes under a different regime. He was 3rd choice when Poch arrived only probably only kept as an option as an afterthought due to the games he scored in at the end of the previous session . He was then played in the competition Poch didn’t care about bagging goals, and our main strikers completely misfired. IIRC the fans had to sing his name in the PL before he got a start. Looking at Kane's goal at Villa do you think Poch is more grateful for Kane or vice versa?

Moving onto the players he actually has attempted to bring through. Well we know Poch doesn’t take anything from people he doesn’t deem as 100% committed or hardworking and wouldn’t get them to sign contracts if they weren’t talented or hardworking, so we can rule out that a lack of effort or commitment is the problem.

Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does repsonsibilty fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Despite, what he says he is now allowing Edwards to play u23s football to develop him.

He took Onomah, a player he described as special as a 17 year old. Coached him for 2 years, despite, Josh never playing anywhere but CM Poch saw him as a winger. He gave him ad hoc minutes over 2 seasons, played him out of position and was so adamant he was a winger he had to be convinced to let him go and prove himself as a winger by coaches that knew him best. I’d never seen Josh with so little confidence at the back end of last season. Yet he was played in CM at the u20 World Cup (cue people claiming its against kid) and was arguably Englands best players as they won it for the frist time. He then went to Aston Villa, and even Steve Bruce, who has watched Josh and ‘seen him in training as a manager’ thought he’d be best in CM, and Josh has been Villa’s best player and even some Spurs fans who didn’t ‘get him’ realized how good he could be. (I guess someone will chime in with it’s only in the Champsionship). If everyone says the manager sees them in training so knows whats best, well Bruce disagrees with Poch so is it fair to question Poch here (cue people saying Poch is a better manager (obviously) and missing the point)

Onto KWP. A player many youth watchers have been craving to get some minutes for the first team. KWP was dropped from traning with the first team last season. Youth watchers were shocked. 6 months later Poch saw the error of his ways. KWP wins the u20 World Cup, KWP gets a first ever competitive start, wins a generous MOTM, and is dropped. What could he possibly have done to be trusted for another start? I assume someone will say Poch dropped him from first team training, as some mind game, to make KWP work harder.

Now Edwards. Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does responsibility fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Now however Poch wants Edwards playing for the u23s. He's gone from coming on against Gillingham to not being physically ready. I guess we'll have to take Poch's word that he hasn't recovered from an injury a year ago despite playing matches just fine. He says he has the situation under control and I hope he does, but looks like we've drawn West Ham in next round so if his comments are anything to go by Edwards can look to start getting some minutes next season, while his contemporaries and players younger than him feature. And he was questioned for not immediately signing a contract.

CCV and Onomah. So we have previously heard that Poch would not let his best players gone on loan as they need to learn under him. Suddenly after 2 years of coaching, Poch still does not have the courage to play them, or they regressed under his training, and he changes his stance to, if they aren’t playing after 2 years they can go on loan. So essentially waste 2 years.

If Poch is allowed to go back on himself why are we not allowed to question him. Why should we just trust what the manager says just because he says it.

I would like to know at what point would people be allowed to question or criticise Poch in this area of his management. In his first year, it was he has just come in, in his 2nd year we were going for the CL, 3rd year we were going for the title so , what will it be this year. Wembley? If after his 4 years he has turned only one player into a genuine first team option, will he deserve his reputation? In his tenure we have had the strongest group of players we have ever developed and we may only have one player to show for it at the end of the season. Surely it's not all the players faults?

It seems we just put obstacle after obstacle in players' way in if they don't make it say they weren't good enough. Oh, you're a CM, play striker. Oh you're a CM go play LWB (Maitland-Niles) then people wonder why they don't show any promise not to mention that even MOTM performances mean little. Kane only got where he was constantly trying to get past obstacles. Surely if we have manager that knows a player has ability you allow them to come through rather than blocking them as if to say 'you've come this far, now over come this'. Barcelona and Bayern competed for titles and brought through players and ended up winning what is our excuse, especially when we don't have the luxury of beating competition in an arms race.

Ultimately I gain nothing from convincing anyone that an academy players is worth a chance, as only Poch makes that decision, and he isn’t going to read a forum. The only thing I hope to get is being able to question a decision he makes without someone just telling me ‘he is a God at bringing through youth players’ and any decision he makes is the correct one because he is fair and sees them in training and so on and so forth.

My passion and care about youth football is because I want to see Spurs and England win trophies in my lifetime, while we have the upper hand. I believe if Poch used our players, and was more risk averse, and interspersed signigns with genuine academy optiosn we would have a stronger squad. We’d have more players willing to step in and do a job who are committed and talented, we would have more money to make the big money signings we need to take us to a new level, and I 100% believe we will find another Kane or Rose level player in another position.

For England I believe that if the PL all had 3-4 genuine squad options from their academy provided England get a decent manager England will win a Euros or World Cup in the next 10 years.

I would love nothing more than for Poch to live upto this reputation and have egg on my face, as ultimately it would be beneficial to the team. However, until the best group of players we've ever produced have more than 4 PL starts between them under 4 years of his tenure, I reserve the right to question his judgement in this area. For what it's worth, as I say I don't think anyone would do any better than him, I wouldn't want another manager, just think it's an area that the whole of England including us need to improve.

Why don't Kane, Mason, and Betnaleb starts count? Does it skew the numbers and undo the point? Regardless of the pointless argument of who is responsible for bringing whichever player through, they are academy graduates who have clocked up significant starts for the first team. Rose arguably counts too, having been signed into the academy. I guess it undermines the argument?

I get the frustration at players not coming through as quickly as we might like. I want Onomah, KWP, Edwards, etc. to succeed here. I will always champion the home grown player, it gives me far more pride to see those players on the pitch than a signing bought in. Mason was my favourite player when he was breaking through because you could tell how much he cared.

Obviously we can question what's going on with the methods and what not, but there is a group on here and elsewhere online who make out like Poch and the coaching staff have some kind of agenda against our academy, that we get some weird sort of kick out of stringing them along for nothing. I wish these super youth experts would occasionally show a modicum of humility and admit that they maybe don't know everything, and that whilst frustrating, perhaps the coaching staff have valid reasons to make the decisions they do.

I agree with points that @Bus-Conductor et-al will make over and over, that players often need to be given the chance to show they can handle it. Will players really ever be ready unless given opportunities etc. but that surely has to be held and tempered with an appreciation for the fact that what we see at U18, U19, U23 is only a snapshot of what the coaches see and make their decisions on.

I'm sure someone will come back saying it's arrogant of me to say the coaches know and we should just deal with it, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying all of us only see a fraction, some more than others, and I'm so grateful for the guys on here who give such in-depth analysis and discussion of all things in the academy, but none of us know the whole deal, and maybe there are things we can't see that justify the decisions made.?

 

[dondo]

Why don't Kane, Mason, and Betnaleb starts count? Does it skew the numbers and undo the point? Regardless of the pointless argument of who is responsible for bringing whichever player through, they are academy graduates who have clocked up significant starts for the first team. Rose arguably counts too, having been signed into the academy. I guess it undermines the argument?

I get the frustration at players not coming through as quickly as we might like. I want Onomah, KWP, Edwards, etc. to succeed here. I will always champion the home grown player, it gives me far more pride to see those players on the pitch than a signing bought in. Mason was my favourite player when he was breaking through because you could tell how much he cared.

Obviously we can question what's going on with the methods and what not, but there is a group on here and elsewhere online who make out like Poch and the coaching staff have some kind of agenda against our academy, that we get some weird sort of kick out of stringing them along for nothing. I wish these super youth experts would occasionally show a modicum of humility and admit that they maybe don't know everything, and that whilst frustrating, perhaps the coaching staff have valid reasons to make the decisions they do.

I agree with points that @Bus-Conductor et-al will make over and over, that players often need to be given the chance to show they can handle it. Will players really ever be ready unless given opportunities etc. but that surely has to be held and tempered with an appreciation for the fact that what we see at U18, U19, U23 is only a snapshot of what the coaches see and make their decisions on.

I'm sure someone will come back saying it's arrogant of me to say the coaches know and we should just deal with it, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying all of us only see a fraction, some more than others, and I'm so grateful for the guys on here who give such in-depth analysis and discussion of all things in the academy, but none of us know the whole deal, and maybe there are things we can't see that justify the decisions made.?

Because poch didn't give them their first start and Kane and benteleb were already part of the 1st team squad.
Mason stats should count imo as he never started a pl game before poch came in iirc and made 1/2 sub cameos years before

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Why don't Kane, Mason, and Betnaleb starts count? Does it skew the numbers and undo the point? Regardless of the pointless argument of who is responsible for bringing whichever player through, they are academy graduates who have clocked up significant starts for the first team. Rose arguably counts too, having been signed into the academy. I guess it undermines the argument?

I get the frustration at players not coming through as quickly as we might like. I want Onomah, KWP, Edwards, etc. to succeed here. I will always champion the home grown player, it gives me far more pride to see those players on the pitch than a signing bought in. Mason was my favourite player when he was breaking through because you could tell how much he cared.

Obviously we can question what's going on with the methods and what not, but there is a group on here and elsewhere online who make out like Poch and the coaching staff have some kind of agenda against our academy, that we get some weird sort of kick out of stringing them along for nothing. I wish these super youth experts would occasionally show a modicum of humility and admit that they maybe don't know everything, and that whilst frustrating, perhaps the coaching staff have valid reasons to make the decisions they do.

I agree with points that @Bus-Conductor et-al will make over and over, that players often need to be given the chance to show they can handle it. Will players really ever be ready unless given opportunities etc. but that surely has to be held and tempered with an appreciation for the fact that what we see at U18, U19, U23 is only a snapshot of what the coaches see and make their decisions on.

I'm sure someone will come back saying it's arrogant of me to say the coaches know and we should just deal with it, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying all of us only see a fraction, some more than others, and I'm so grateful for the guys on here who give such in-depth analysis and discussion of all things in the academy, but none of us know the whole deal, and maybe there are things we can't see that justify the decisions made.?

Mason, Kane and Bentaleb had all been given senior games before Poch arrived (Kane and Bentaleb here, Mason elsewhere). It's so much easier, psychologically, it seems, for Poch (and most managers) if that's the case.

We buy players like Njie and Nkoudou with only handful of games in ligue 1, without ever seeing them train and give them minutes and the odd start. But for our own kids, we expect them to not only smash their development games but also train like experienced pros too apparently.

This whole "what they do in training" is a pretty bogus argument imo, I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but attitude and aptitude are largely what matter in training because players are nearly always selected on what they do in real games, not training, because coaches know they are very different environments and often bare very little relationship to one another.

I would imagine under Poch, the bare minimum in training is maximum effort and attention to instruction or they would be jettisoned pretty quickly. But even if KWP was having blinders every day Poch isn't going to drop Trippier and now Aurier as RB. And we've seen this with Winks even when he's played well in real games and people like Dembele and Dier haven't.

 

[Hengy1]

Mason, Kane and Bentaleb had all been given senior games before Poch arrived (Kane and Bentaleb here, Mason elsewhere). It's so much easier, psychologically, it seems, for Poch (and most managers) if that's the case.

We buy players like Njie and Nkoudou with only handful of games in ligue 1, without ever seeing them train and give them minutes and the odd start. But for our own kids, we expect them to not only smash their development games but also train like experienced pros too apparently.

This whole "what they do in training" is a pretty bogus argument imo, I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but attitude and aptitude are largely what matter in training because players are nearly always selected on what they do in real games, not training, because coaches know they are very different environments and often bare very little relationship to one another.

I would imagine under Poch, the bare minimum in training is maximum effort and attention to instruction or they would be jettisoned pretty quickly. But even if KWP was having blinders every day Poch isn't going to drop Trippier and now Aurier as RB. And we've seen this with Winks even when he's played well in real games and people like Dembele and Dier haven't.

Should Bellerin be discounted then as he had 8 games for Watford before breaking through for Arsenal?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

My point in addressing other clubs is that people are more willing to accept the argument when it is not personal. When I criticism other clubs, fans of our club are happier and can understand the criticism, as they aren't heavily involved emotionally. It can almost be discussed objectively. Once people agree that there is a problem, when I can then show we are no different then maybe people can start seeing things in a different way.

Contrary to what you say, our club is no different, not significantly, to any other PL clubs and the issues they have in bringing youth through, under Poch anyway. We just talk a good game. Let’s compare our club since Poch has joined to other PL clubs of similar sizes.

Let’s look at how many Premier League starts academy players have made at each club. I am using PL starts as I think everyone can agree that the PL is the main competition and if you are making starts there then it’s the only time you can really start to argue that they are seriously being rotated or considered for the first team. I am also only including players who made their competitive debuts in the 14/15 season or after, so since Poch joined. I haven’t included LC starts as the LC is used a chance to experiment and may make us look even worse. I haven’t included EL starts for the same reason, many managers used it as a 2nd eleven. Didn’t include the CL starts as PL more important but if you did again, Winks only made a couple of starts and it would make us look comparatively worse again, I’d imagine.

Bare in mind, Poch also has the advantage of being in charge for a longer period of time than any manager at any other comparable club bar Wenger, so has time to nurture and plan pathways for these academy players.

Spurs – 4 PL starts, Winks (3), KWP (1)
United – 78 PL starts, Rashford (41), Lingard (37)
Liverpool – 6 PL starts TAA (5), Woodburn (1)
Arsenal – 112 PL starts Iwobi (27), Bellerin (85)
Everton –30 PL starts Garbutt (3), Davies (21), Pennington (6),
City – 12 PL starts Iheanacho (12)
Now we all know how terrible Chelsea are but since 14/15 season, these players have gone from not playing one minutes of competitive football for any club to now playing
Christensen 1 start for Chelsea and 1000s of Bundesliga minutes
Palace – RLC (3)
Swansea – Abraham (5)

As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players. I have seen more people critical of AVB at his lack of youth integration and he only last just over season whereas Poch is now in his 4th year. Why do people believe that we or Poch is any better or above any criticism of his youth integration. As I’ve pointed out in my previous post England are producing better players they ever have, and everyone agrees that there is as a massive issues in the PL re the lack of chances given to PL players, but everyone is fair game to criticise but not us.

It seems the fans use Kane to hide behind as being down to Poch. When he is where he is because of McDermott and Sherwood. Kane had made 10 starts in different competitions before Poch arrived. 6 handed to him by Sherwood who gave him a chance over an in formish Adebayor and Soldado. He had countless Football League minutes under a different regime. He was 3rd choice when Poch arrived only probably only kept as an option as an afterthought due to the games he scored in at the end of the previous session . He was then played in the competition Poch didn’t care about bagging goals, and our main strikers completely misfired. IIRC the fans had to sing his name in the PL before he got a start. Looking at Kane's goal at Villa do you think Poch is more grateful for Kane or vice versa?

Moving onto the players he actually has attempted to bring through. Well we know Poch doesn’t take anything from people he doesn’t deem as 100% committed or hardworking and wouldn’t get them to sign contracts if they weren’t talented or hardworking, so we can rule out that a lack of effort or commitment is the problem.

Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does repsonsibilty fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Despite, what he says he is now allowing Edwards to play u23s football to develop him.

He took Onomah, a player he described as special as a 17 year old. Coached him for 2 years, despite, Josh never playing anywhere but CM Poch saw him as a winger. He gave him ad hoc minutes over 2 seasons, played him out of position and was so adamant he was a winger he had to be convinced to let him go and prove himself as a winger by coaches that knew him best. I’d never seen Josh with so little confidence at the back end of last season. Yet he was played in CM at the u20 World Cup (cue people claiming its against kid) and was arguably Englands best players as they won it for the frist time. He then went to Aston Villa, and even Steve Bruce, who has watched Josh and ‘seen him in training as a manager’ thought he’d be best in CM, and Josh has been Villa’s best player and even some Spurs fans who didn’t ‘get him’ realized how good he could be. (I guess someone will chime in with it’s only in the Champsionship). If everyone says the manager sees them in training so knows whats best, well Bruce disagrees with Poch so is it fair to question Poch here (cue people saying Poch is a better manager (obviously) and missing the point)

Onto KWP. A player many youth watchers have been craving to get some minutes for the first team. KWP was dropped from traning with the first team last season. Youth watchers were shocked. 6 months later Poch saw the error of his ways. KWP wins the u20 World Cup, KWP gets a first ever competitive start, wins a generous MOTM, and is dropped. What could he possibly have done to be trusted for another start? I assume someone will say Poch dropped him from first team training, as some mind game, to make KWP work harder.

Now Edwards. Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does responsibility fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Now however Poch wants Edwards playing for the u23s. He's gone from coming on against Gillingham to not being physically ready. I guess we'll have to take Poch's word that he hasn't recovered from an injury a year ago despite playing matches just fine. He says he has the situation under control and I hope he does, but looks like we've drawn West Ham in next round so if his comments are anything to go by Edwards can look to start getting some minutes next season, while his contemporaries and players younger than him feature. And he was questioned for not immediately signing a contract.

CCV and Onomah. So we have previously heard that Poch would not let his best players gone on loan as they need to learn under him. Suddenly after 2 years of coaching, Poch still does not have the courage to play them, or they regressed under his training, and he changes his stance to, if they aren’t playing after 2 years they can go on loan. So essentially waste 2 years.

If Poch is allowed to go back on himself why are we not allowed to question him. Why should we just trust what the manager says just because he says it.

I would like to know at what point would people be allowed to question or criticise Poch in this area of his management. In his first year, it was he has just come in, in his 2nd year we were going for the CL, 3rd year we were going for the title so , what will it be this year. Wembley? If after his 4 years he has turned only one player into a genuine first team option, will he deserve his reputation? In his tenure we have had the strongest group of players we have ever developed and we may only have one player to show for it at the end of the season. Surely it's not all the players faults?

It seems we just put obstacle after obstacle in players' way in if they don't make it say they weren't good enough. Oh, you're a CM, play striker. Oh you're a CM go play LWB (Maitland-Niles) then people wonder why they don't show any promise not to mention that even MOTM performances mean little. Kane only got where he was constantly trying to get past obstacles. Surely if we have manager that knows a player has ability you allow them to come through rather than blocking them as if to say 'you've come this far, now over come this'. Barcelona and Bayern competed for titles and brought through players and ended up winning what is our excuse, especially when we don't have the luxury of beating competition in an arms race.

Ultimately I gain nothing from convincing anyone that an academy players is worth a chance, as only Poch makes that decision, and he isn’t going to read a forum. The only thing I hope to get is being able to question a decision he makes without someone just telling me ‘he is a God at bringing through youth players’ and any decision he makes is the correct one because he is fair and sees them in training and so on and so forth.

My passion and care about youth football is because I want to see Spurs and England win trophies in my lifetime, while we have the upper hand. I believe if Poch used our players, and was more risk averse, and interspersed signigns with genuine academy optiosn we would have a stronger squad. We’d have more players willing to step in and do a job who are committed and talented, we would have more money to make the big money signings we need to take us to a new level, and I 100% believe we will find another Kane or Rose level player in another position.

For England I believe that if the PL all had 3-4 genuine squad options from their academy provided England get a decent manager England will win a Euros or World Cup in the next 10 years.

I would love nothing more than for Poch to live upto this reputation and have egg on my face, as ultimately it would be beneficial to the team. However, until the best group of players we've ever produced have more than 4 PL starts between them under 4 years of his tenure, I reserve the right to question his judgement in this area. For what it's worth, as I say I don't think anyone would do any better than him, I wouldn't want another manager, just think it's an area that the whole of England including us need to improve.

Very well said, and the stand-alone post that every fan should read on the subject.

 

[sly1]

I understand what you're saying to an extent, but while I doubted Alderweireld signing, it was more because I didn't think we needed him than he wasn't any good. Alderweireld was a PL proven defender who had good reviews at Southampton. Not really risky, especially as he also had experience of playing with our current first choice CB at the time

Eriksen was a well-known name with a reputation wanted by City and Dortmund. Those are signings that would improve us and add instant quality.

N'Koudou, N'Jie and Sissoko can't be compared. The first 2 noone had heard of and the last noone wanted, and many still don't. And that is the point. We're taking risks and spending money on average players when we have players ready to step up from academy who don't need to adapt any more than them and potentially are as good. Noone is disputing signing quality and it not paying off, but it's the obvious squad signings that could be filled by the best of our academy that annoy me.

If we had signed Gotze and he flopped I wouldn't be complaining, same as when we signed Soldado and he flopped. When we buy Stambouli instead of giving our own a chance I get frustrated

I also really want our youth players to succeed. The first thing I do when our teams are announced is check which youth players are on the bench or starting. Like everyone else here, I really want Edwards to make it and KWP to get games this season and Onomah to prove himself in the PL. I just think that it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that we could not have signed all the players that didn't work out but still have signed the ones that did, and that it would have been obvious to do so.

Eriksen and Aldeweireld are examples of signings that could reasonably be argued weren't risks. But what about, Alli, Walker, Rose, Dier, Son? These are all players that are were unproven quantities to some extent when we signed them, but all of them have been hugely important to our team in the last couple of years.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Should Bellerin be discounted then as he had 8 games for Watford before breaking through for Arsenal?

If we are talking about players being integrated straight from academies with senior experience, yes. When did I ever mention Bellerin?

 

[Hengy1]

If we are talking about players being integrated straight from academies with senior experience, yes. When did I ever mention Bellerin?

It's in IG post

For me both Mason & Kane goes in for poch because yes they had a few appearances they was nowhere near regulars bench players let alone starters and in Kane's case a world class striker.

 

[mpickard2087]

My point in addressing other clubs is that people are more willing to accept the argument when it is not personal. When I criticism other clubs, fans of our club are happier and can understand the criticism, as they aren't heavily involved emotionally. It can almost be discussed objectively. Once people agree that there is a problem, when I can then show we are no different then maybe people can start seeing things in a different way.

Contrary to what you say, our club is no different, not significantly, to any other PL clubs and the issues they have in bringing youth through, under Poch anyway. We just talk a good game. Let’s compare our club since Poch has joined to other PL clubs of similar sizes.

Let’s look at how many Premier League starts academy players have made at each club. I am using PL starts as I think everyone can agree that the PL is the main competition and if you are making starts there then it’s the only time you can really start to argue that they are seriously being rotated or considered for the first team. I am also only including players who made their competitive debuts in the 14/15 season or after, so since Poch joined. I haven’t included LC starts as the LC is used a chance to experiment and may make us look even worse. I haven’t included EL starts for the same reason, many managers used it as a 2nd eleven. Didn’t include the CL starts as PL more important but if you did again, Winks only made a couple of starts and it would make us look comparatively worse again, I’d imagine.

Bare in mind, Poch also has the advantage of being in charge for a longer period of time than any manager at any other comparable club bar Wenger, so has time to nurture and plan pathways for these academy players.

Spurs – 4 PL starts, Winks (3), KWP (1)
United – 78 PL starts, Rashford (41), Lingard (37)
Liverpool – 6 PL starts TAA (5), Woodburn (1)
Arsenal – 112 PL starts Iwobi (27), Bellerin (85)
Everton –30 PL starts Garbutt (3), Davies (21), Pennington (6),
City – 12 PL starts Iheanacho (12)
Now we all know how terrible Chelsea are but since 14/15 season, these players have gone from not playing one minutes of competitive football for any club to now playing
Christensen 1 start for Chelsea and 1000s of Bundesliga minutes
Palace – RLC (3)
Swansea – Abraham (5)

As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players. I have seen more people critical of AVB at his lack of youth integration and he only last just over season whereas Poch is now in his 4th year. Why do people believe that we or Poch is any better or above any criticism of his youth integration. As I’ve pointed out in my previous post England are producing better players they ever have, and everyone agrees that there is as a massive issues in the PL re the lack of chances given to PL players, but everyone is fair game to criticise but not us.

It seems the fans use Kane to hide behind as being down to Poch. When he is where he is because of McDermott and Sherwood. Kane had made 10 starts in different competitions before Poch arrived. 6 handed to him by Sherwood who gave him a chance over an in formish Adebayor and Soldado. He had countless Football League minutes under a different regime. He was 3rd choice when Poch arrived only probably only kept as an option as an afterthought due to the games he scored in at the end of the previous session . He was then played in the competition Poch didn’t care about bagging goals, and our main strikers completely misfired. IIRC the fans had to sing his name in the PL before he got a start. Looking at Kane's goal at Villa do you think Poch is more grateful for Kane or vice versa?

Moving onto the players he actually has attempted to bring through. Well we know Poch doesn’t take anything from people he doesn’t deem as 100% committed or hardworking and wouldn’t get them to sign contracts if they weren’t talented or hardworking, so we can rule out that a lack of effort or commitment is the problem.

Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does repsonsibilty fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Despite, what he says he is now allowing Edwards to play u23s football to develop him.

He took Onomah, a player he described as special as a 17 year old. Coached him for 2 years, despite, Josh never playing anywhere but CM Poch saw him as a winger. He gave him ad hoc minutes over 2 seasons, played him out of position and was so adamant he was a winger he had to be convinced to let him go and prove himself as a winger by coaches that knew him best. I’d never seen Josh with so little confidence at the back end of last season. Yet he was played in CM at the u20 World Cup (cue people claiming its against kid) and was arguably Englands best players as they won it for the frist time. He then went to Aston Villa, and even Steve Bruce, who has watched Josh and ‘seen him in training as a manager’ thought he’d be best in CM, and Josh has been Villa’s best player and even some Spurs fans who didn’t ‘get him’ realized how good he could be. (I guess someone will chime in with it’s only in the Champsionship). If everyone says the manager sees them in training so knows whats best, well Bruce disagrees with Poch so is it fair to question Poch here (cue people saying Poch is a better manager (obviously) and missing the point)

Onto KWP. A player many youth watchers have been craving to get some minutes for the first team. KWP was dropped from traning with the first team last season. Youth watchers were shocked. 6 months later Poch saw the error of his ways. KWP wins the u20 World Cup, KWP gets a first ever competitive start, wins a generous MOTM, and is dropped. What could he possibly have done to be trusted for another start? I assume someone will say Poch dropped him from first team training, as some mind game, to make KWP work harder.

Now Edwards. Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does responsibility fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Now however Poch wants Edwards playing for the u23s. He's gone from coming on against Gillingham to not being physically ready. I guess we'll have to take Poch's word that he hasn't recovered from an injury a year ago despite playing matches just fine. He says he has the situation under control and I hope he does, but looks like we've drawn West Ham in next round so if his comments are anything to go by Edwards can look to start getting some minutes next season, while his contemporaries and players younger than him feature. And he was questioned for not immediately signing a contract.

CCV and Onomah. So we have previously heard that Poch would not let his best players gone on loan as they need to learn under him. Suddenly after 2 years of coaching, Poch still does not have the courage to play them, or they regressed under his training, and he changes his stance to, if they aren’t playing after 2 years they can go on loan. So essentially waste 2 years.

If Poch is allowed to go back on himself why are we not allowed to question him. Why should we just trust what the manager says just because he says it.

I would like to know at what point would people be allowed to question or criticise Poch in this area of his management. In his first year, it was he has just come in, in his 2nd year we were going for the CL, 3rd year we were going for the title so , what will it be this year. Wembley? If after his 4 years he has turned only one player into a genuine first team option, will he deserve his reputation? In his tenure we have had the strongest group of players we have ever developed and we may only have one player to show for it at the end of the season. Surely it's not all the players faults?

It seems we just put obstacle after obstacle in players' way in if they don't make it say they weren't good enough. Oh, you're a CM, play striker. Oh you're a CM go play LWB (Maitland-Niles) then people wonder why they don't show any promise not to mention that even MOTM performances mean little. Kane only got where he was constantly trying to get past obstacles. Surely if we have manager that knows a player has ability you allow them to come through rather than blocking them as if to say 'you've come this far, now over come this'. Barcelona and Bayern competed for titles and brought through players and ended up winning what is our excuse, especially when we don't have the luxury of beating competition in an arms race.

Ultimately I gain nothing from convincing anyone that an academy players is worth a chance, as only Poch makes that decision, and he isn’t going to read a forum. The only thing I hope to get is being able to question a decision he makes without someone just telling me ‘he is a God at bringing through youth players’ and any decision he makes is the correct one because he is fair and sees them in training and so on and so forth.

My passion and care about youth football is because I want to see Spurs and England win trophies in my lifetime, while we have the upper hand. I believe if Poch used our players, and was more risk averse, and interspersed signigns with genuine academy optiosn we would have a stronger squad. We’d have more players willing to step in and do a job who are committed and talented, we would have more money to make the big money signings we need to take us to a new level, and I 100% believe we will find another Kane or Rose level player in another position.

For England I believe that if the PL all had 3-4 genuine squad options from their academy provided England get a decent manager England will win a Euros or World Cup in the next 10 years.

I would love nothing more than for Poch to live upto this reputation and have egg on my face, as ultimately it would be beneficial to the team. However, until the best group of players we've ever produced have more than 4 PL starts between them under 4 years of his tenure, I reserve the right to question his judgement in this area. For what it's worth, as I say I don't think anyone would do any better than him, I wouldn't want another manager, just think it's an area that the whole of England including us need to improve.

Have to say bravo, this is an outstanding post. Whether you agree with it, disagree, or somewhere in between I hope everyone would recognise how comprehensive and well put together it is. Deserves off-the-scale ratings.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I also really want our youth players to succeed. The first thing I do when our teams are announced is check which youth players are on the bench or starting. Like everyone else here, I really want Edwards to make it and KWP to get games this season and Onomah to prove himself in the PL. I just think that it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that we could not have signed all the players that didn't work out but still have signed the ones that did, and that it would have been obvious to do so.

Eriksen and Aldeweireld are examples of signings that could reasonably be argued weren't risks. But what about, Alli, Walker, Rose, Dier, Son? These are all players that are were unproven quantities to some extent when we signed them, but all of them have been hugely important to our team in the last couple of years.

No one is suggesting we stop signing players, and we all acknowledge every signing is a gamble, all we are saying is there could be the tiniest shift in emphasis.

Of the 10,750 league minutes played by players, that started games during Poch's reign, only about 360 have been played by players, starting the game from our academy, who hadn't played senior football already. That's 0.03%.

There's a massive difference signing players with a good body of evidence of ability in good quality senior football like Eriksen, Vertonghen and Alderweireld and signing players with much less evidence or evidence of inconsistant reliability.

I've always said we have generally played the market shrewder than most, and that has given us an edge, but I think the next edge to be found is in actually doing what most other PL aren't which utilising - only the very best - of our own academy products.

Even if they only end up fulfilling a "squad" remit, that's as good as most signings we make.

And we are only talking about 4/5 players over a 3/4 year period. Some periods there won't be any.

But we've got to slightly change our mindset as a club (Chairman and coach) and fans, and start accepting that there sometimes is less risk and possibly could be more reward in giving players who have excelled in our own academy, coached how we want them to play, who are settled in our culture, home life etc, than there sometimes will be with a player with scant experience elsewhere, or a flawed profile.

 

[nicdic]

Mason, Kane and Bentaleb had all been given senior games before Poch arrived (Kane and Bentaleb here, Mason elsewhere). It's so much easier, psychologically, it seems, for Poch (and most managers) if that's the case.

We buy players like Njie and Nkoudou with only handful of games in ligue 1, without ever seeing them train and give them minutes and the odd start. But for our own kids, we expect them to not only smash their development games but also train like experienced pros too apparently.

This whole "what they do in training" is a pretty bogus argument imo, I'm not saying it's irrelevant, but attitude and aptitude are largely what matter in training because players are nearly always selected on what they do in real games, not training, because coaches know they are very different environments and often bare very little relationship to one another.

I would imagine under Poch, the bare minimum in training is maximum effort and attention to instruction or they would be jettisoned pretty quickly. But even if KWP was having blinders every day Poch isn't going to drop Trippier and now Aurier as RB. And we've seen this with Winks even when he's played well in real games and people like Dembele and Dier haven't.

So Rashford shouldn't have any of his apps count under Mourinho because it was LVG who gave him his first start? It's bollocks. Either count all starts for academy players or not. Kane, Mason, Bentaleb all count. None of them were first team regulars before Poch. You can't argue that they were while continuing to claim that Winks doesn't count for Poch either.

Players I want to play don't get picked, they must be great in training because I love them, so Poch must not care what happens in training. Even though we've seen players not treated by their price tag or status, who have proved themselves in training to get in the team?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's in IG post

For me both Mason & Kane goes in for poch because yes they had a few appearances they was nowhere near regulars bench players let alone starters and in Kane's case a world class striker.

But the overall points that @IGSpur made were good ones. The most important question you should ask yourself is, would we even be watching "world class" Kane now if some else hadn't given him his first few minutes and then starts? Because the vast body of evidence suggests we might not, because no matter how well our very best academy players perform, here, so far under Poch there's been scant reward in real terms unless they've had games already (here or elsewhere). 4 league starts in 3 years. And this summer we've bought another young RB, and were trying to buy a young CM (Diop). What does that say for Onomah and KWP's chances of even getting minutes never mind games?

 

[Hengy1]

But the overall points that @IGSpur made were good ones. The most important question you should ask yourself is, would we even be watching "world class" Kane now if some else hadn't given him his first few minutes and then starts? Because the vast body of evidence suggests we might not, because no matter how well our very best academy players perform, here, so far under Poch there's been scant reward in real terms unless they've had games already (here or elsewhere). 4 league starts in 3 years. And this summer we've bought another young RB, and were trying to buy a young CM (Diop). What does that say for Onomah and KWP's chances of even getting minutes never mind games?

Maybe they aren't as good as you think or just aren't ready yet?

Onomah had minutes while not being in his main position he pretty much disappointed so has now gone out on loan to get some real minutes under his belt. Don't see a problem with that.

KWP is in his first breakout year but was never going to become number 1 RB and we've bought in a potential world class one now won't harm him as he'll still get time and my hope is next season he'll become our number two RB and moving on Trippier.

Poch has played youth and trusted the ones that have shined.

 

[nicdic]

But the overall points that @IGSpur made were good ones. The most important question you should ask yourself is, would we even be watching "world class" Kane now if some else hadn't given him his first few minutes and then starts? Because the vast body of evidence suggests we might not, because no matter how well our very best academy players perform, here, so far under Poch there's been scant reward in real terms unless they've had games already (here or elsewhere). 4 league starts in 3 years. And this summer we've bought another young RB, and were trying to buy a young CM (Diop). What does that say for Onomah and KWP's chances of even getting minutes never mind games?

Which young players ever make it through without some kind of other factor having an impact? Be that injuries or form of other players?

I'm not gonna carry on with this argument, you guys are always going to shift the playing field to oppose Poch even if it causes huge inconsistencies.

Really hope Marcus makes it, likewise the countless other prospects we've got coming through. And I'd rather have Poch overseeing it than anyone else.

 

[Lilbaz]

Haven't we had the youngest squad in the prem for a while now? I'd say poch gives young players chances when he thinks they've earned them.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Haven't we had the youngest squad in the prem for a while now? I'd say poch gives young players chances when he thinks they've earned them.

Yes but Poch has not given youth chances when BC thinks they have earned them. And therein lies the problem.

 

[Danny1]

My point in addressing other clubs is that people are more willing to accept the argument when it is not personal. When I criticism other clubs, fans of our club are happier and can understand the criticism, as they aren't heavily involved emotionally. It can almost be discussed objectively. Once people agree that there is a problem, when I can then show we are no different then maybe people can start seeing things in a different way.

Contrary to what you say, our club is no different, not significantly, to any other PL clubs and the issues they have in bringing youth through, under Poch anyway. We just talk a good game. Let’s compare our club since Poch has joined to other PL clubs of similar sizes.

Let’s look at how many Premier League starts academy players have made at each club. I am using PL starts as I think everyone can agree that the PL is the main competition and if you are making starts there then it’s the only time you can really start to argue that they are seriously being rotated or considered for the first team. I am also only including players who made their competitive debuts in the 14/15 season or after, so since Poch joined. I haven’t included LC starts as the LC is used a chance to experiment and may make us look even worse. I haven’t included EL starts for the same reason, many managers used it as a 2nd eleven. Didn’t include the CL starts as PL more important but if you did again, Winks only made a couple of starts and it would make us look comparatively worse again, I’d imagine.

Bare in mind, Poch also has the advantage of being in charge for a longer period of time than any manager at any other comparable club bar Wenger, so has time to nurture and plan pathways for these academy players.

Spurs – 4 PL starts, Winks (3), KWP (1)
United – 78 PL starts, Rashford (41), Lingard (37)
Liverpool – 6 PL starts TAA (5), Woodburn (1)
Arsenal – 112 PL starts Iwobi (27), Bellerin (85)
Everton –30 PL starts Garbutt (3), Davies (21), Pennington (6),
City – 12 PL starts Iheanacho (12)
Now we all know how terrible Chelsea are but since 14/15 season, these players have gone from not playing one minutes of competitive football for any club to now playing
Christensen 1 start for Chelsea and 1000s of Bundesliga minutes
Palace – RLC (3)
Swansea – Abraham (5)

As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players. I have seen more people critical of AVB at his lack of youth integration and he only last just over season whereas Poch is now in his 4th year. Why do people believe that we or Poch is any better or above any criticism of his youth integration. As I’ve pointed out in my previous post England are producing better players they ever have, and everyone agrees that there is as a massive issues in the PL re the lack of chances given to PL players, but everyone is fair game to criticise but not us.

It seems the fans use Kane to hide behind as being down to Poch. When he is where he is because of McDermott and Sherwood. Kane had made 10 starts in different competitions before Poch arrived. 6 handed to him by Sherwood who gave him a chance over an in formish Adebayor and Soldado. He had countless Football League minutes under a different regime. He was 3rd choice when Poch arrived only probably only kept as an option as an afterthought due to the games he scored in at the end of the previous session . He was then played in the competition Poch didn’t care about bagging goals, and our main strikers completely misfired. IIRC the fans had to sing his name in the PL before he got a start. Looking at Kane's goal at Villa do you think Poch is more grateful for Kane or vice versa?

Moving onto the players he actually has attempted to bring through. Well we know Poch doesn’t take anything from people he doesn’t deem as 100% committed or hardworking and wouldn’t get them to sign contracts if they weren’t talented or hardworking, so we can rule out that a lack of effort or commitment is the problem.

Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does repsonsibilty fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Despite, what he says he is now allowing Edwards to play u23s football to develop him.

He took Onomah, a player he described as special as a 17 year old. Coached him for 2 years, despite, Josh never playing anywhere but CM Poch saw him as a winger. He gave him ad hoc minutes over 2 seasons, played him out of position and was so adamant he was a winger he had to be convinced to let him go and prove himself as a winger by coaches that knew him best. I’d never seen Josh with so little confidence at the back end of last season. Yet he was played in CM at the u20 World Cup (cue people claiming its against kid) and was arguably Englands best players as they won it for the frist time. He then went to Aston Villa, and even Steve Bruce, who has watched Josh and ‘seen him in training as a manager’ thought he’d be best in CM, and Josh has been Villa’s best player and even some Spurs fans who didn’t ‘get him’ realized how good he could be. (I guess someone will chime in with it’s only in the Champsionship). If everyone says the manager sees them in training so knows whats best, well Bruce disagrees with Poch so is it fair to question Poch here (cue people saying Poch is a better manager (obviously) and missing the point)

Onto KWP. A player many youth watchers have been craving to get some minutes for the first team. KWP was dropped from traning with the first team last season. Youth watchers were shocked. 6 months later Poch saw the error of his ways. KWP wins the u20 World Cup, KWP gets a first ever competitive start, wins a generous MOTM, and is dropped. What could he possibly have done to be trusted for another start? I assume someone will say Poch dropped him from first team training, as some mind game, to make KWP work harder.

Now Edwards. Since Poch has arrived he has claimed that the u23s is not a good breeding ground for the players he rates, and he wants to keep the best players close to him, to learn his methods. Bold, as he is taking on full responsibility. Does responsibility fall on him when they don’t make it or does he just get to make a reason up for us to believe. Now however Poch wants Edwards playing for the u23s. He's gone from coming on against Gillingham to not being physically ready. I guess we'll have to take Poch's word that he hasn't recovered from an injury a year ago despite playing matches just fine. He says he has the situation under control and I hope he does, but looks like we've drawn West Ham in next round so if his comments are anything to go by Edwards can look to start getting some minutes next season, while his contemporaries and players younger than him feature. And he was questioned for not immediately signing a contract.

CCV and Onomah. So we have previously heard that Poch would not let his best players gone on loan as they need to learn under him. Suddenly after 2 years of coaching, Poch still does not have the courage to play them, or they regressed under his training, and he changes his stance to, if they aren’t playing after 2 years they can go on loan. So essentially waste 2 years.

If Poch is allowed to go back on himself why are we not allowed to question him. Why should we just trust what the manager says just because he says it.

I would like to know at what point would people be allowed to question or criticise Poch in this area of his management. In his first year, it was he has just come in, in his 2nd year we were going for the CL, 3rd year we were going for the title so , what will it be this year. Wembley? If after his 4 years he has turned only one player into a genuine first team option, will he deserve his reputation? In his tenure we have had the strongest group of players we have ever developed and we may only have one player to show for it at the end of the season. Surely it's not all the players faults?

It seems we just put obstacle after obstacle in players' way in if they don't make it say they weren't good enough. Oh, you're a CM, play striker. Oh you're a CM go play LWB (Maitland-Niles) then people wonder why they don't show any promise not to mention that even MOTM performances mean little. Kane only got where he was constantly trying to get past obstacles. Surely if we have manager that knows a player has ability you allow them to come through rather than blocking them as if to say 'you've come this far, now over come this'. Barcelona and Bayern competed for titles and brought through players and ended up winning what is our excuse, especially when we don't have the luxury of beating competition in an arms race.

Ultimately I gain nothing from convincing anyone that an academy players is worth a chance, as only Poch makes that decision, and he isn’t going to read a forum. The only thing I hope to get is being able to question a decision he makes without someone just telling me ‘he is a God at bringing through youth players’ and any decision he makes is the correct one because he is fair and sees them in training and so on and so forth.

My passion and care about youth football is because I want to see Spurs and England win trophies in my lifetime, while we have the upper hand. I believe if Poch used our players, and was more risk averse, and interspersed signigns with genuine academy optiosn we would have a stronger squad. We’d have more players willing to step in and do a job who are committed and talented, we would have more money to make the big money signings we need to take us to a new level, and I 100% believe we will find another Kane or Rose level player in another position.

For England I believe that if the PL all had 3-4 genuine squad options from their academy provided England get a decent manager England will win a Euros or World Cup in the next 10 years.

I would love nothing more than for Poch to live upto this reputation and have egg on my face, as ultimately it would be beneficial to the team. However, until the best group of players we've ever produced have more than 4 PL starts between them under 4 years of his tenure, I reserve the right to question his judgement in this area. For what it's worth, as I say I don't think anyone would do any better than him, I wouldn't want another manager, just think it's an area that the whole of England including us need to improve.

Sorry IG I usually really like your posts but I disagree with this premise. To include Lingard, Bellerin, RLC & Abraham in your list and not having Carroll, Mason, Townsend, Rose, Kane & Bentaleb in there doesnt add up.

Now if you were purely talking about Poch then fair enough but to say "As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players" then I wholly disagree when you compare apples for apples. Our academy is far more productive than all of our rivals.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Sorry IG I usually really like your posts but I disagree with this premise. To include Lingard, Bellerin, RLC & Abraham in your list and not having Carroll, Mason, Townsend, Rose, Kane & Bentaleb in there doesnt add up.

Now if you were purely talking about Poch then fair enough but to say "As you can see we are no better in fact, we are the worse when compared to our direct rivals at turning academy players into first team squad players" then I wholly disagree when you compare apples for apples. Our academy is far more productive than all of our rivals.

If I understand the initial post correctly, it is about players who have come through an academy and started playing PL matches for their respective youth career clubs during the time since Pochettino's arrival at Spurs. Within that framework, I see little or no flaw in the stats. Carroll, Townsend, Rose, Kane etc etc didn't start playing PL matches for the club of their youth career after Pochettino arrived. Bellerin and Lingard did.

If one would have to include a whole range of Spurs players who came through from the Spurs academy at a point, then the same figures must be added up for other clubs, going further back in time. You have to start counting from some specific time in history, and it is reasonable to do that from Pochettino's start at Spurs, because this is supposed to be his forte.

More to the point, rather than haggling over who should count or not count, let's have the debate centre around the actual underlying question, are we happy or not happy with the amount of academy players who have started playing PL matches for Spurs after Pochettino arrived?