Mauricio Pochettino

[SpursManChris]

Southampton had only been promoted two years before Pochettino left them, they'd just undergone a change in top management and were about to start a firesale of their best players.

Exactly. It shows that he's not 100% loyal. The situations between us now and Southampton then are different, but the fact that Poch moved to us demonstrated ambition and I see no reason to believe that Poch's ambition will definitely end with us. Some managers get tied of jobs, just look at Guardiola, who jacked it in at Barca and now Munich and probably his next club.

 

[arunspurs]

Exactly. It shows that he's not 100% loyal. The situations between us now and Southampton then are different, but the fact that Poch moved to us demonstrated ambition and I see no reason to believe that Poch's ambition will definitely end with us. Some managers get tied of jobs, just look at Guardiola, who jacked it in at Barca and now Munich and probably his next club.

Is there something called 100% loyal ? Players - possible. Managers ? Improbable. By what you say, Fergie wasn't loyal to Aberdeen when he switched to ManUnited. It doesn't mean anything.

Question to be asked is - why did he leave & when he took that decision? He wasn't sacked. Saints were happy for him to continue. Pochettino in January that season in press conference said he is seriously contemplating leaving Saints because he doesn't believe in Saints board anymore. This was right after Nicola Cortese was removed/resigned as chairman.

Saints owners were happy to sell their top players which Cortese opposed & Poch too. But it went ahead. So, Pochettino saw no future. Rewind 1.5 years from then. Same situation happened at Espanyol. He took Espanyol to top10 finishes but his clubs started selling his best players.


Common theme is - Pochettino moves to new pastures if board isn't sync with him. At Spurs, every indication suggests that his policies are implemented. As long as we dont sell half the first team, he isn't going to throw his toys out of the pram.

 

[heelspurs]

Exactly. It shows that he's not 100% loyal. The situations between us now and Southampton then are different, but the fact that Poch moved to us demonstrated ambition and I see no reason to believe that Poch's ambition will definitely end with us. Some managers get tied of jobs, just look at Guardiola, who jacked it in at Barca and now Munich and probably his next club.

How do I put this...it is clear you are an ambitious person because you chose to write this response. However, your ambition and execution were at odds.

They fired (or he was allowed to walk) the guy toward whom he explicitly said he was loyal. Then the Soton board were going to sanction the sale of his best players. How would you handle this situation? Would or are you "100% loyal" to those around you that are disloyal? No, because anyone that would be is a completely spineless idiot right? And it would run counter to anything that could be perceived as ambitious -- you know, taking what your given instead of going out and getting what your deserve. So his coming to us was a consequence of Soton's disloyalty not a calculated move resulting from his 'ambition', irrespective of the magnitude and quality of his ambition.

Secondly, why can't his 'ambition' end with us? Did Fergie's end with united? Has Wenger's with Arsenal? Or is it your inability to conceive of the idea that in Poch's mind true ambition is actually building something, specifically when others say it can't be done. Perhaps he believes the glory hunting coward's way is taking over a turnkey operation and steering it towards success, ie going to a 'big club' and buying success. This is what Mourinho and all the other shit chequebook managers want. How about the pride of actually building something and being THE MAN, not just the next man. Perhaps it is because you have an immutable idea of what the rightful pecking order of the PL is and even in the case of your/our beloved Spurs this remains inviolable. Perhaps, you see all the reasons, limitations, and constraints as to why this can't be done and you, or any other naysayer, train your focus thusly. Perhaps Poch focuses elsewhere because his ambition is actually so f*cking great, his self-belief so audacious, his desire for greatness so unquenchable that he, in fact, dares to do.

 

[Trix]

ManU are a long, long way from being Liverpool or AC Milan yet. Players might be choosing the PSG's and Real Madrid's but there aren't too many choosing Spurs over them yet.

NO, but they have started chosing Chelsea and Man City

 

[Hoops]

How do I put this...it is clear you are an ambitious person because you chose to write this response. However, your ambition and execution were at odds.

They fired (or he was allowed to walk) the guy toward whom he explicitly said he was loyal. Then the Soton board were going to sanction the sale of his best players. How would you handle this situation? Would or are you "100% loyal" to those around you that are disloyal? No, because anyone that would be is a completely spineless idiot right? And it would run counter to anything that could be perceived as ambitious -- you know, taking what your given instead of going out and getting what your deserve. So his coming to us was a consequence of Soton's disloyalty not a calculated move resulting from his 'ambition', irrespective of the magnitude and quality of his ambition.

Secondly, why can't his 'ambition' end with us? Did Fergie's end with united? Has Wenger's with Arsenal? Or is it your inability to conceive of the idea that in Poch's mind true ambition is actually building something, specifically when others say it can't be done. Perhaps he believes the glory hunting coward's way is taking over a turnkey operation and steering it towards success, ie going to a 'big club' and buying success. This is what Mourinho and all the other shit chequebook managers want. How about the pride of actually building something and being THE MAN, not just the next man. Perhaps it is because you have an immutable idea of what the rightful pecking order of the PL is and even in the case of your/our beloved Spurs this remains inviolable. Perhaps, you see all the reasons, limitations, and constraints as to why this can't be done and you, or any other naysayer, train your focus thusly. Perhaps Poch focuses elsewhere because his ambition is actually so f*cking great, his self-belief so audacious, his desire for greatness so unquenchable that he, in fact, dares to do.

Its a good argument, but ill believe it when I see it. Disaster has always been round the corner fo Spurs. It will take a bit of getting used to if things go right.

 

[SpursManChris]

How do I put this...it is clear you are an ambitious person because you chose to write this response. However, your ambition and execution were at odds.

They fired (or he was allowed to walk) the guy toward whom he explicitly said he was loyal. Then the Soton board were going to sanction the sale of his best players. How would you handle this situation? Would or are you "100% loyal" to those around you that are disloyal? No, because anyone that would be is a completely spineless idiot right? And it would run counter to anything that could be perceived as ambitious -- you know, taking what your given instead of going out and getting what your deserve. So his coming to us was a consequence of Soton's disloyalty not a calculated move resulting from his 'ambition', irrespective of the magnitude and quality of his ambition.

Secondly, why can't his 'ambition' end with us? Did Fergie's end with united? Has Wenger's with Arsenal? Or is it your inability to conceive of the idea that in Poch's mind true ambition is actually building something, specifically when others say it can't be done. Perhaps he believes the glory hunting coward's way is taking over a turnkey operation and steering it towards success, ie going to a 'big club' and buying success. This is what Mourinho and all the other shit chequebook managers want. How about the pride of actually building something and being THE MAN, not just the next man. Perhaps it is because you have an immutable idea of what the rightful pecking order of the PL is and even in the case of your/our beloved Spurs this remains inviolable. Perhaps, you see all the reasons, limitations, and constraints as to why this can't be done and you, or any other naysayer, train your focus thusly. Perhaps Poch focuses elsewhere because his ambition is actually so f*cking great, his self-belief so audacious, his desire for greatness so unquenchable that he, in fact, dares to do.

Tremendous post, full of optimism but it does contain a few assumed facts and other things so I'll pick you up on some:

They fired (or he was allowed to walk) the guy toward whom he explicitly said he was loyal.

You can't put "fired" into it. He resigned, that's a fact. And a club is much bigger than its chairman. Poch could have chosen to show loyalty to the part of the club which is immeasurably bigger than any one person or group (including the players) at the entire club; the fans. However, the player sales would have been a major blow, I'll agree there.
However, how good would his team have been in the following season full of unhappy players
who's heads were turned? Which brings me onto my next point:

his coming to us was a consequence of Soton's disloyalty not a calculated move resulting from his 'ambition', irrespective of the magnitude and quality of his ambition.

Do you honestly believe that he wouldn't have come to us anyway, if they didn't sell the players? Like I said, their heads would've been turned the following season. What manager would want to work with that if they had an easy get out, transferring to a bigger and better club? And how do we know we won't have that problem? If we fail to make top 4 and players want out the door, then what? Well we know what Levy does with unhappy players,
he sells them and so he should. Then what? Poch will 'chuck' a Southampton?

Secondly, why can't his 'ambition' end with us?

When did I say it can't?

in Poch's mind true ambition is actually building something

Great sentiment, but do you have some sort of insight into Poch's mind?

Perhaps it is because you have an immutable idea of what the rightful pecking order of the PL is and even in the case of your/our beloved Spurs this remains inviolable

Actually, I have NO idea of what the "rightful pecking order of the PL"
is mostly because I've no idea what you mean by that. Can you expand?

Perhaps Poch focuses elsewhere because his ambition is actually so f*cking great, his self-belief so audacious, his desire for greatness so unquenchable that he, in fact, DARES TO DO.

I love that sentence.

Things are great at the minute at our club and I really admire your optimism. But I do want to caution people from thinking it will last forever. We've been through great times before but has it lasted forever? I would've thought us more than any fans would've learnt our lesson by now. We get so used to things being at such a high level and we'll get more and more used to Poch and that's why it will be terrible if he left.
I think my point is best summarised as 'Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.' It will only hurt more if you don't.

 

[SpursManChris]

Its a good argument, but ill believe it when I see it. Disaster has always been round the corner fo Spurs. It will take a bit of getting used to if things go right.

And a LOT of getting used to if things go wrong again. Like I said above, hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It will only hurt more if you don't.

 

[SpursManChris]

Is there something called 100% loyal ? Players - possible. Managers ? Improbable. By what you say, Fergie wasn't loyal to Aberdeen when he switched to ManUnited.

Yeah, he wasn't. That's pretty clear isn't it? How was he loyal? By leaving? Interesting definition of loyalty that is.

Question to be asked is - why did he leave & when he took that decision? He wasn't sacked. Saints were happy for him to continue.

Who?

Saints owners were happy to sell their top players which Cortese opposed & Poch too. But it went ahead. So, Pochettino saw no future. Rewind 1.5 years from then. Same situation happened at Espanyol. He took Espanyol to top10 finishes but his clubs started selling his best players.

So what happens if we don't finish top 4 and players want out the door? Poch will 'chuck' a Southampton or an Espanyol?

 

[worcestersauce]

Loyalty is a two way street, once a board rejects and reverses every promise they have made to you they free you from any obligation of loyalty.
I believe Pochottino will be loyal to this club as long as we match his ambition, at the moment we are doing that and so should expect that loyalty, we can ask no more than that.

 

[arunspurs]

Yeah, he wasn't. That's pretty clear isn't it? How was he loyal? By leaving? Interesting definition of loyalty that is.

Who?

So what happens if we don't finish top 4 and players want out the door? Poch will 'chuck' a Southampton or an Espanyol?

Explain whats 100% loyalty...There is no manager in today's world who is 100% loyal.

With your last point ....So are you asking a hypothetical question where Kane, Lloris, Eriksen & 3 more players are asking Levy to let them leave ? ZERO chance that will happen. Saints sold 5 key players the summer Pochettino went out. Espanyol sold half the XI to balance books. That will nothappen at Spurs in current conditions. If such a rare scenario happens & Levy sanctions such a massive clear out, then, in that hypothetical situation, Pochettino may want to leave as well ..probably getting angry at Levy for letting the lot leave.

Understand this properly - Espanyol board & Southampton board broke promises of keeping best players and showing ambition. In fact, both were selling players for balancing books. We ARE showing ambition, so I cant see him following the trend. Again, I reiterate, Pochettino took the decision as a principle in Jan that year. That time we were not even looking at him or approached him. So, decision he took at Southampton was a gamble which could have back fired. We went for him, showed we have ambition to maintain & push on.

 

[SpursManChris]

Loyalty is a two way street, once a board rejects and reverses every promise they have made to you they free you from any obligation of loyalty.
I believe Pochottino will be loyal to this club as long as we match his ambition, at the moment we are doing that and so should expect that loyalty, we can ask no more than that.

Although I highly doubt that they promised him that they will never ever sell any players. What other promises do you mean?

 

[arunspurs]

Although I highly doubt that they promised him that they will never ever sell any players. What other promises do you mean?

I hope you see the difference between 1 than selling 4 or 5. I dont think no manager will get a promise to not sell "any" players.

 

[sloth]

Spurs are a more attractive proposition that United at the moment.

Think about the expectation and pressure to deliver after a frustrating few years with Moyes and LVG...that's the question I would be asking if I were Poch or any other manager on the short list for the United job.

I would suggest any manager taking on the United job now are on a hiding to nothing. Exasperated fans who are at the end of their tether. That doesn't breed much hope in the way of patience and allowing a new manager to adapt much.

Of course they're a massive Club and have huge resources but they're simply not the United of old and the circumstances of taking over there now, at their most difficult point in years, is vastly different and actually a pretty daunting proposition if anything.

Whilst at Spurs Poch is in the midst of building something special and I think most associated with the Club can feel that. He's adored by most and he just feels like a perfect fit for the Club and vice versa. He's being trusted to bring through young players and Levy has definitely got a long term plan regarding the current set up and I think Poch knows he has job security now barring a complete disaster. Would he have the same comfort levels at United? No chance IMO.

Yes this might be a bit rose tinted but the arrogance of those twats to suggest its such a simple and logical progression for Poch is outstanding,.

I sincerely hope Poch stays with us for the real long term and builds something special. Yes they'll be dips a long the way but we must ride these out.

Those twats keep using the word ambition. Well it would show far more ambition to stay with Tottenham and to turn us into top four regulars, and perhaps even more, by coaching and bringing through youth prospects and moulding them into a real team than going to United which is a Club that will attempt to buy its way back to the top.

I agree with you inasmuch as it's not about any objective measure by which you rate the two clubs, so much as the subjective opinion of the manager.

Utd, to most managers, is the obvious choice, it's bigger, has worldwide prestige, you'll win things there and get paid handsomely for it. But for a few the challenge is what's important, and the team and ethos you're surrounded by, and in that respect if we agree that Spurs is the greater challenge, but the fundamentals are there, and the opportunity to progress as well, and Poch believes in the people he's surrounded by, then he'll choose us over Utd. We won't know the truth though, unless he's presented with the choice.

 

[worcestersauce]

Although I highly doubt that they promised him that they will never ever sell any players. What other promises do you mean?

You know that Poch is always referring to his philosophy and the project which was exactly the same at Southampton but Southampton then abandoned the project, they didn't sell a few players they effectively sold his team from under him.
It wasn't simply selling players it was the abandonment of the project, now if you join a company to run a project and they close that project down what would you do?

 

[SpursManChris]

Explain whats 100% loyalty...There is no manager in today's world who is 100% loyal.

You're right. But how does that mean you can say that Fergie was not disloyal to Aberdeen? Just because it is normal?

With your last point ....So are you asking a hypothetical question where Kane, Lloris, Eriksen & 3 more players are asking Levy to let them leave ? ZERO chance that will happen.

Why does it have to be three more? Kane, Lloris and Eriksen would be bad enough. Although its more likely to be Toby than Eriksen at the moment. Those three getting sold would certainly test Poch's loyalty I would think. I would FEAR.

Understand this properly - Espanyol board & Southampton board broke promises of keeping best players and showing ambition.

Do we actually know that?

 

[arunspurs]

You're right. But how does that mean you can say that Fergie was not disloyal to Aberdeen? Just because it is normal?

Why does it have to be three more? Kane, Lloris and Eriksen would be bad enough. Although its more likely to be Toby than Eriksen at the moment. Those three getting sold would certainly test Poch's loyalty I would think. I would FEAR.

Do we actually know that?

Well...here you go...

Southampton

Few days before : Nicola Cortese sacked/resigned as Chairman having issues with Owner not going with his development plas

Pochettino :

Asked if he would be staying if Cortese left, the Argentinian said: "Of course not, because the person that has put his faith in me in this club and as a manager is Nicola Cortese Nicola Cortese has basically been the reality at Southampton for the past four years. Of course, the people that are in the club, that are part of the club, that are behind the scenes in the club were a little bit worried about what has been said. Me on a personal sense, I would not understand a Southampton without Nicola being here."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/16/mauricio-pochettino-quit-southampton-nicola-cortese

He later said he will resign in the summer, which he did

Espanyol

Few days before : Espanyol President Ramon Condal resigned with the club approximately €150 million in debt and majority shareholder Daniel Sanchez Llibre reportedly considering selling his shares

Pochettino after 3-0 loss :

"The image was bad, we were not at the height we should be, and did not get into the game. We were always chasing the game. It is normal that the coach takes the responsibility. There is atmosphere all around the club, and a certain fatigue about what is happening." He was referring to the complicated boardroom issues at the club, with presidential elections scheduled for next Monday and a war of words taking place in the media between past regimes and the new candidates.

http://www.espnfc.com.au/story/1223674/mauricio-pochettino-on-brink-of-the-sack-at-espanyol

 

[SpursManChris]

You know that Poch is always referring to his philosophy and the project which was exactly the same at Southampton but Southampton then abandoned the project, they didn't sell a few players they effectively sold his team from under him.

The project could have collapsed anyway. A team full of unhappy players who's heads were turned and wanted the hell out of there doesn't sound like much of a project to me.

 

[SpursManChris]

Well...here you go...

Southampton

Few days before : Nicola Cortese sacked/resigned as Chairman having issues with Owner not going with his development plas

Pochettino :

Asked if he would be staying if Cortese left, the Argentinian said: "Of course not, because the person that has put his faith in me in this club and as a manager is Nicola Cortese Nicola Cortese has basically been the reality at Southampton for the past four years. Of course, the people that are in the club, that are part of the club, that are behind the scenes in the club were a little bit worried about what has been said. Me on a personal sense, I would not understand a Southampton without Nicola being here."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/may/16/mauricio-pochettino-quit-southampton-nicola-cortese

He later said he will resign in the summer, which he did

Espanyol

Few days before : Espanyol President Ramon Condal resigned with the club approximately €150 million in debt and majority shareholder Daniel Sanchez Llibre reportedly considering selling his shares

Pochettino after 3-0 loss :

"The image was bad, we were not at the height we should be, and did not get into the game. We were always chasing the game. It is normal that the coach takes the responsibility. There is atmosphere all around the club, and a certain fatigue about what is happening." He was referring to the complicated boardroom issues at the club, with presidential elections scheduled for next Monday and a war of words taking place in the media between past regimes and the new candidates.

http://www.espnfc.com.au/story/1223674/mauricio-pochettino-on-brink-of-the-sack-at-espanyol

Yeah, but what does any of that say about promises that were made?

 

[arunspurs]

Yeah, but what does any of that say about promises that were made?

Err...ok...let me try one more quote , this from Independent...

"The person who actually called me from the start, told me about the project and put his faith in me, in this club and as a manager was Nicola. "
Full quotes here...
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-chairman-nicola-cortese-resigns-9061006.html

If you can't get the message from this, I give up.

 

[SpursManChris]

"The person who actually called me from the start, told me about the project and put his faith in me, in this club and as a manager was Nicola. "

Yeah, I get the message loud and clear from that quote. The promises were from Cortese. Not necessarily the owner or anyone else at the club.