Morgan Schneiderlin

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,461
#21
Good player but with Sandro and Capoue as DM options and Paulinho as a box to box we need a more attacking, creative player in the mix, really a cm playmaker, it's not about pass rate percentages but seeing and playing the balls forward early. If we are going to get a mid far better a Clasie, Banega, Pastore or a Kovacic depending on quite how attack balanced/creative balanced we want to be
The playmakers will be the No.10, and possibly one of the wide positions if Pochettino brings the same system. The players in the 4-2-3-1 tend to sit and look to cover for the full backs pushing high up the pitch. We don't necessarily need a playmaker, we do need someone, lazily I'll use the label 'like Modric', who can use the ball (often simply but) intelligently, always available for it, move it through the middle third and to keep things ticking over. But with defensive qualities too.
 

mpickard2087

Fantastic Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,461
#22
Fair enough, but I would actually argue against such a setup as balance. People often mistake "symmetry" for "balance," and on a football pitch (especially from the controllers in central midfield), that symmetry can sometimes eliminate balance due to how static it becomes. You became less able to adapt, flex, and roll with the punches as they come at you, and you yourself are far too predictable in such a situation because you've sacrificed more pace and energy.

In fact, I view this use of two holding CM's as a contributor to why Saints lost so many points late. Not enough energy, variability, and pace to close out the game. Poch didn't really have a more effectively disperser of the ball to play in the position, so I believe he made it work to the best of what they had by playing Schneiderlin there and giving him some freedom. There were very strong rumors of him going after Banega in January, so I think it's possible he may have actually intended to rectify this issue.

Holtby will see very little time if he only competes with Eriksen for such a position, but as he himself prefers to play a bit deeper, and in such a high press he wouldn't be too far behind Eriksen in his cameos in the No 8, I think he'd also be very effectively used sharing time with Paulinho in the position.
My view is they lost points because they tended to drop deep and defend a lead a lot of the time, especially against the bigger teams... Something which I hope Pochettino has learnt from and plays a bit braver at times. Not because they couldn't keep it or find the passes when they needed to.

I don't think it has to be symmetrical or static, but with 4 attackers plus two fullbacks bombing forward it is prudent to have two players who are minded to sit and wait before joining the attack. As I said, Schneiderlin was capable of pushing forward when the opportunity arose. Intelligent players, with sound tactical blueprint taught to them, make it work better I guess...
 

Barry Mead

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2013
Messages
3,083
#24
The playmakers will be the No.10, and possibly one of the wide positions if Pochettino brings the same system. The players in the 4-2-3-1 tend to sit and look to cover for the full backs pushing high up the pitch. We don't necessarily need a playmaker, we do need someone, lazily I'll use the label 'like Modric', who can use the ball (often simply but) intelligently, always available for it, move it through the middle third and to keep things ticking over. But with defensive qualities too.
No I disagree, we need a deeper lying playmaker to get the ball forward to the attackers more quickly, Soton are pretty new to the PL, teams didn't go out to pull defenders behind the ball and defend deep against them like quite a number of clubs do to us so it's easier for them to find that bit more space. If Poch doesn't change his tactics to ensure we get the ball forwards more quickly to at least give the attackers a bit more time and space to get a run at a defence that hasn't had time to get fully in position it will just be a case of same old same old. We aren't Southampton and I sincerely hope Poch is clever enough to be aware that the PL is tougher on the more successful teams because they tend to face different posers to the lower teams
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
11,722
#25
My view is they lost points because they tended to drop deep and defend a lead a lot of the time, especially against the bigger teams... Something which I hope Pochettino has learnt from and plays a bit braver at times. Not because they couldn't keep it or find the passes when they needed to.

I don't think it has to be symmetrical or static, but with 4 attackers plus two fullbacks bombing forward it is prudent to have two players who are minded to sit and wait before joining the attack. As I said, Schneiderlin was capable of pushing forward when the opportunity arose. Intelligent players, with sound tactical blueprint taught to them, make it work better I guess...
I think you're absolutely right in that your reasoning is also a contributing factor, but I also think they would have been less inclined to do so and more inclined to control effective possession with a more dynamic player alongside the CDM.

Your second paragraph is also very correct, but my point is that I think we have the players and resources to do it better, without actually sacrificing anything in defense.

Good discussion here though, you make well-reasoned and clearly considered points.
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
10,733
#26
From what I've read here sounds like the player Capoue can be. Albeit we didn't see him get into any kind of form during his first season. I still have hope for him once he is coached properly next season.
 

Snarfalicious

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
10,513
#28
From what I've read here sounds like the player Capoue can be. Albeit we didn't see him get into any kind of form during his first season. I still have hope for him once he is coached properly next season.
He really could be. At Toulouse he was great at breaking up play/distributing. His range of passing is brilliant, it's just a matter of if we can get him a run of games at this point. I've never really doubted his ability and physicality as he's got plenty of both to make it in the PL.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
11,722
#29
From what I've read here sounds like the player Capoue can be. Albeit we didn't see him get into any kind of form during his first season. I still have hope for him once he is coached properly next season.
I do rate Capoue quite highly, and in fact can think of no realistic situation in which he shouldn't be our starter come August.
 

SFCS

Active Member
Joined
May 17, 2013
Messages
598
#30
We don't have anyone in the squad who always offers an outlet in the centre of the pitch and can effectively dictate the game from deeper in midfield. I'd have him with Bentaleb (learning his trade) as his understudy for this role.
You think Schneiderlin dictates games? I think we've been watching 2 different players. What he does is hardly different from what Wanyama does for Southampton and what Sandro, Capoue, Bentaleb and Holtby could each do for us. Even Dembele could do that if Pochettino taught him to pass forwards. He's certainly no Modric if that's what you're thinking.

Is it fair to evaluate holding midfielders evaluated on a basis of how many goals they score? And I think you're right, we should be more concerned with selling some midfielders, and I have no doubt the club has already taken steps towards doing so.
I didn't say that, infact I didn't state what I thought of him in terms of ability at all. What I was saying is that we've already got plenty of players that don't score so we could do with signing some that do, if we enter the transfermarket for another midfielder.

Capoue, Sandro, Dembele, Holtby and Bentaleb struggled to get more than a handful of league goals between them. Then we've got Townsend, Lennon and Chadli on the wings that don't get many. Paulinho didn't score as many as he should've last season and Sigurdsson doesn't contribute much when he doesn't score. We don't exactly have Sturridge and Suarez ahead of them so it leaves us pretty screwed if Eriksen gets injured or Lamela doesn't step up next season.... unless we sign some midfielders and wingers who get more goals, which is the same as our current situation, except we have a few million less to buy them with.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
11,722
#31
I didn't say that, infact I didn't state what I thought of him in terms of ability at all. What I was saying is that we've already got plenty of players that don't score so we could do with signing some that do, if we enter the transfermarket for another midfielder.

Capoue, Sandro, Dembele, Holtby and Bentaleb struggled to get more than a handful of league goals between them. Then we've got Townsend, Lennon and Chadli on the wings that don't get many. Paulinho didn't score as many as he should've last season and Sigurdsson doesn't contribute much when he doesn't score. We don't exactly have Sturridge and Suarez ahead of them so it leaves us pretty screwed if Eriksen gets injured or Lamela doesn't step up next season.... unless we sign some midfielders and wingers who get more goals, which is the same as our current situation, except we have a few million less to buy them with.
I agree we could use with another winger who could improve our goal-scoring potential, but it's very important to note that with midfielders and especially the CDM and DLP/BTB type players whose positioning is originally in front of the back line, it's the potential for scoring goals through the circumstances they create (space, defenders backpedaling, incisive passing) that are more important when evaluating such players' impacts at any given team.
 

SFCS

Active Member
Joined
May 17, 2013
Messages
598
#33
I agree we could use with another winger who could improve our goal-scoring potential, but it's very important to note that with midfielders and especially the CDM and DLP/BTB type players whose positioning is originally in front of the back line, it's the potential for scoring goals through the circumstances they create (space, defenders backpedaling, incisive passing) that are more important when evaluating such players' impacts at any given team.
The reason I brought up the goals is because that would make him a different proposition to those we've already got and the more goal threats we can have on the field, without upsetting the balance of the team, the better. I don't care how they get their goals or where they play, I'd see it as a positive to sign a player that gets goals.

Personally I'm hopeful that Pochettino can bring more goals out of the players we've got but I'm not so certain he can get our defence working without at least a couple of big signings. That's another reason why I'm not so sure we should be paying what would surely be a sizeable on Schneiderlin before the defence is sorted.

What overrules all that though is if Pochettino really wants him as I think it's important we target a few of the manager's players this summer, regardless of where they play.
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
11,722
#36
I think he's a mixture of a few different types of player.
Agreed. If we're to describe him using Spurs players, I view him as somewhere in between Capoue and Dembele as far as his positioning and game impact, but with more pace and ground covered. I also view his talents that more closely resemble Capoue as more immediately beneficial to us, and my guess is it'd be for those reasons why Poch may want him at Spurs.
 
Top