MY COACHING JOURNEY: MANAGING AN UNDER 8 SIDE

[LukeBB]

You look younger than I thought you'd be in a couple of those photos. How old are you? Six/Seven? Nice of your Dad to tag along and keep you company.

He was one of the team's siblings and he was enjoyed playing my assistant so I'd usually let him help me serve balls into the playing area or referee a game.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

@LukeBB

Absolutely brilliant stuff mate. Quite inspirational really. I love the sound of what you are doing and the way you are approaching it. You're approach strikes me as being quite dutch actually. Not sure why, maybe from stuff I've read over the years about and by Dutch football, footballers and coaches.

Either way I think some that are criticising are completely missing the point. You are taking are very clever, psychological approach. And people saying "they are just 8 FFS" a completely misunderstanding what 8yo's and kids in general enjoy and need. They absolutely need, and IMO love some level of structure to play, it is how their minds are designed to function and how they grow, and it is great for their development as people to also be helped to understand that they can achieve more as a collective than as individuals etc.

Even the stuff about dribbling resonated with me. I love passing football but have always believed that all players from the CB's up should be comfortable on the ball, but as a kid I can remember constantly being shouted at "get rid" by my coaches if I attempted to dibble past more than one player.

Not all 8yo kids are good at dribbling, but your approach to include the ones that aren't into the structure and dynamics of the game, giving them roles within the format is good intuitive stuff and general approach to dealing with kids.

Keep up the good work.

 

[LukeBB]

@LukeBB

Absolutely brilliant stuff mate. Quite inspirational really. I love the sound of what you are doing and the way you are approaching it. You're approach strikes me as being quite dutch actually. Not sure why, maybe from stuff I've read over the years about and by Dutch football, footballers and coaches.

Either way I think some that are criticising are completely missing the point. You are taking are very clever, psychological approach. And people saying "they are just 8 FFS" a completely misunderstanding what 8yo's and kids in general enjoy and need. They absolutely need, and IMO love some level of structure to play, it is how their minds are designed to function and how they grow, and it is great for their development as people to also be helped to understand that they can achieve more as a collective than as individuals etc.

Even the stuff about dribbling resonated with me. I love passing football but have always believed that all players from the CB's up should be comfortable on the ball, but as a kid I can remember constantly being shouted at "get rid" by my coaches if I attempted to dibble past more than one player.

Not all 8yo kids are good at dribbling, but your approach to include the ones that aren't into the structure and dynamics of the game, giving them roles within the format is a really intuitive coaching and general approach to dealing with kids.

Keep up the good work.

Thank you so much for your comment. Whilst my work's success is based purely off my players' development, it's so encouraging and motivating to hear someone else outside the team is at least enjoying the idea of what I'm doing. Thank you again for your response.

I attended a coaching course hosted by Raymond Verheijen, a dutch coach who's worked with the likes of LVG, Hiddink and Gary Speed, last year and his work and his words really resonated with me and so a lot of the attitude with which I approach coaching stems from him.

 

[Lilbaz]

You will need to break them down. Crush their hopes and spirit. Use any means necessary, pain, humiliation. Then once they are at breaking point, build them up again, compliment them, even give them rewards. Recreate and mold them in your image.

You might want to teach them how to kick a ball as well.

 

[LukeBB]

@LukeBB

Even the stuff about dribbling resonated with me. I love passing football but have always believed that all players from the CB's up should be comfortable on the ball, but as a kid I can remember constantly being shouted at "get rid" by my coaches if I attempted to dibble past more than one player.

Not all 8yo kids are good at dribbling, but your approach to include the ones that aren't into the structure and dynamics of the game, giving them roles within the format is good intuitive stuff and general approach to dealing with kids.

I'm the exact same way mate. As I mentioned briefly in my piece, I played for really poor teams who were constantly under pressure due to issues with getting enough players on matchday so I was alsways encouraged when I cleared the ball or just tackled an opposition player. As soon as I spent even 1 extra second on the ball without booting it I was cried at to "GET RID" or "DON'T MUCK ABOUT WITH IT" and now when I play 5 a side and I take a poor touch or I lose the ball whilst dribbling etc I always think back to the wasted years.

I am determined to create "complete" players, to develop footballers, not right-backs/strikers/wingers/defenders etc FOOTBALLERS! Those who can do anything. Knowing the coach who would follow me, who would focus heavily on creating a passing style etc I was adamant I would show these kids another way of playing so that they could have multiple pictures in their heads for when they're learning new systems/styles etc

 

[ILS]

If I can just give you a couple of scenarios that happened during an under 7 tournament two weeks ago in Birmingham.

I was there in a parent capacity as my lad was asked to play a year up as he is better then most of the age group, so I thought it would do him good although I did not know much about the team and it was my first time in the role as a parent at a football tournament.

My Mrs warned me before I went to basically keep my mouth shut and let the managers coach...which I promised I would (whilst smiling inside)...anyway after watching the first couple of games I was very impressed with the football our team played. They played out from the back and were very successful and won the first two games very comfortable.

The next game was then against the tournament hosts who were the favourites for the tournament and have four players at different academy teams throughout the Midlands. So the match started and it was pretty even then it ended up with our goalkeeper. The two defenders split and the midfielder dropped into the centre to give the keeper options which had worked in the previous matches.

Problem being the other team had watched them and cottoned on to this and pressed them. The left sided defender received the ball to his feet, tried to turn got tackled and the other team scored. Fair enough they conceded but were trying to play the right way. Two mins later the same thing happened but to the right sided defender. 2-0 down...all of a sudden the parents started getting on the kid backs and the manager looked clueless. So bearing in mind what my Mrs had warned me, when the left side centre half took the next throw in near me, I suggested to him that next time he receives the ball in the same position, just hit the channel as our striker is very fast. Yes this is going against everything they are being taught but you could tell the team needed help.

So next time the keeper had it, he rolled it to the left centre half who was pressed and all of sudden he pinged the ball down into the channel. Our striker latched on to it and scored. You could see the relief in our defender's face and he turned and smiled at me.

So I was wondering do you believe the advice I gave the defender was wrong because it was route one football going against what they were being coached, even though it had a successful outcome?

In my personal opinion, football is about adapting to your surroundings and there is no one way which is the answer. Having listened to Roberto Martinez on Monday football last week, he came across to me as a manager with Plan A...and had no plan b which is what most Everton fans complain about and I am getting same feeling with Poch.

Yes we should be coaching our players to be more comfortable on the ball but if Spurs did what my sons team were doing...would we be patient and say..."well at least they are trying to play the right way"

Be interesting to get peoples feedback?

 

[Lilbaz]

If I can just give you a couple of scenarios that happened during an under 7 tournament two weeks ago in Birmingham.

I was there in a parent capacity as my lad was asked to play a year up as he is better then most of the age group, so I thought it would do him good although I did not know much about the team and it was my first time in the role of a parent at a football tournament.

My Mrs warned me before I went to basically keep my mouth shut and let the managers coach...which I promised I would (whilst smiling inside)...anyway after watching the first couple of games I was very impressed with the football our team played. They played out from the back and were very successful and won the first two games very comfortable.

The next game was then against the tournament hosts who were the favourites for the tournament and have four players at different academy teams throughout the Midlands. So the match started and it was pretty even then it ended up with our goalkeeper. The two defenders split and the midfielder drop in centre to give him options which had worked in the previous matches.

Problem being the other team had watched them and cottoned on to this and pressed them. The left sided defender received the ball to his feet, tried to turn got tackled and the other team scored. Fair enough they conceded but were trying to play the right way. Two mins later the same thing happened but to the right sided defender. 2-0 down...all of a sudden the parents started getting on the kid backs and the manager looked clueless. So bearing in mind what my Mrs had warned me, when the left side centre half took the next throw in near me, I suggested to him that next time he receives the ball in the same position, just hit the channel as our striker is very fast. Yes this is going against everything they are being taught but you could tell the team needed help.

So next time the keeper had it, he rolled IT to the left centre half who was pressed and all of sudden he pinged the ball down into the channel. Our striker latched on to it and scored. You could see the relief in our defender's face and he turned and smiled at me.

So I was wondering do you believe the advice I gave the defender was wrong because it was route one football going against what they were being coached, even though it had a successful outcome?

In my personal opinion, football is about adapting to your surroundings and there is no one way which is the answer. Having listened to Roberto Martinez on Monday football last week, he came across to me as a manager with Plan A...and had no plan b which is what most Everton fans state.

Yes we should be coaching our players to be more comfortable on the ball but if Spurs did what my sons team was doing...would we be patient and say..."well at least they are trying to play the right way"

Be interesting to get peoples feedback?

I think it was wrong. The results don't matter at that age it's all about development. The defenders needed to learn of their surroundings maybe not take so long on the ball. Hoofing it upfield is easy, if they keep taking the easy route it will become habit.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

If I can just give you a couple of scenarios that happened during an under 7 tournament two weeks ago in Birmingham.

I was there in a parent capacity as my lad was asked to play a year up as he is better then most of the age group, so I thought it would do him good although I did not know much about the team and it was my first time in the role as a parent at a football tournament.

My Mrs warned me before I went to basically keep my mouth shut and let the managers coach...which I promised I would (whilst smiling inside)...anyway after watching the first couple of games I was very impressed with the football our team played. They played out from the back and were very successful and won the first two games very comfortable.

The next game was then against the tournament hosts who were the favourites for the tournament and have four players at different academy teams throughout the Midlands. So the match started and it was pretty even then it ended up with our goalkeeper. The two defenders split and the midfielder dropped into the centre to give the keeper options which had worked in the previous matches.

Problem being the other team had watched them and cottoned on to this and pressed them. The left sided defender received the ball to his feet, tried to turn got tackled and the other team scored. Fair enough they conceded but were trying to play the right way. Two mins later the same thing happened but to the right sided defender. 2-0 down...all of a sudden the parents started getting on the kid backs and the manager looked clueless. So bearing in mind what my Mrs had warned me, when the left side centre half took the next throw in near me, I suggested to him that next time he receives the ball in the same position, just hit the channel as our striker is very fast. Yes this is going against everything they are being taught but you could tell the team needed help.

So next time the keeper had it, he rolled it to the left centre half who was pressed and all of sudden he pinged the ball down into the channel. Our striker latched on to it and scored. You could see the relief in our defender's face and he turned and smiled at me.

So I was wondering do you believe the advice I gave the defender was wrong because it was route one football going against what they were being coached, even though it had a successful outcome?

In my personal opinion, football is about adapting to your surroundings and there is no one way which is the answer. Having listened to Roberto Martinez on Monday football last week, he came across to me as a manager with Plan A...and had no plan b which is what most Everton fans complain about and I am getting same feeling with Poch.

Yes we should be coaching our players to be more comfortable on the ball but if Spurs did what my sons team were doing...would we be patient and say..."well at least they are trying to play the right way"

Be interesting to get peoples feedback?

You were very wrong IMO. It is not about winning or losing, scoring or not scoring or the result. It is about developing young minds in a footballing and more general sense.

You want the kid to be comfortable with pressure, to be able to problem solve for himself, or you want the team as a group to come up with a solution to the pressure. Not just effectively shout "get rid" which is what you did. The fact that they scored from it is just lucky, or more luck than judgement.

If, in a coaching session you had said to the kid (the defender) think for yourself about how to deal with an opponent pressing you, discuss it with the other players and come up with alternative solutions, that could be more acceptable. If they come up with the solution of another player from a forward position dropping in to offer to receive the ball or make a specific movement that the CB knows to look for when under pressure etc.

All you did was tell tell the kid to not trust his own ability, absolve responsibility and hope it works out better than if he does. You are putting all the emphasis on the existential issues (goals, moments, score, luck, result) not on the actual development of the player.



IMO.

 

[Lilbaz]

Spurs don't let anyone watch their youth sides do they (15 and down?).

 

[ILS]

You were very wrong IMO. It is not about winning or losing, scoring or not scoring or the result. It is about developing young minds in a footballing and more general sense.

You want the kid to be comfortable with pressure, to be able to problem solve for himself, or you want the team as a group to come up with a solution to the pressure. Not just effectively shout "get rid" which is what you did. The fact that they scored from it is just lucky, or more luck than judgement.

If, in a coaching session you had said to the kid (the defender) think for yourself about how to deal with an opponent pressing you, discuss it with the other players and come up with alternative solutions, that could be more acceptable. If they come up with the solution of another player from a forward position dropping in to offer to receive the ball or make a specific movement that the CB knows to look for when under pressure etc.

All you did was tell tell the kid to not trust his own ability, absolve responsibility and hope it works out better than if he does. You are putting all the emphasis on the existential issues (goals, moments, score, luck, result) not on the actual development of the player.



IMO.

Fair points and too be honest I agree with everything you say however being there in the moment is a lot different as I could see the kids involved getting visibly upset and the pressure from their parents was clearly getting to them.

My main concern is though that the coach had only shown them one way to play and soon as they came up against a team superior to them they collapsed and was clueless. I totally agree though they need to make their own match decisions but at 6 years old alot falls with how they are being coached and I still feel as Luke mentioned previously the level 1 and 2 coaches within kids football are not good enough.

I know of four coaches who all have level 2 and if you got into a conversation about football with them you would walk away after five seconds.

As a country I just think we should try and create on own philosophy which I do believe Dan Ashworth and co are trying to achieve instead of copying others.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fair points and too be honest I agree with everything you say however being there in the moment is a lot different as I could see the kids involved getting visibly upset and the pressure from their parents was clearly getting to them.

My main concern is though that the coach had only shown them one way to play and soon as they came up against a team superior to them they collapsed and was clueless. I totally agree though they need to make their own match decisions but at 6 years old alot falls with how they are being coached and I still feel as Luke mentioned previously the level 1 and 2 coaches within kids football are not good enough.

I know of four coaches who all have level 2 and if you got into a conversation about football with them you would walk away after five seconds.

As a country I just think we should try and create on own philosophy which I do believe Dan Ashworth and co are trying to achieve instead of copying others.

I believe Dan Ashworth's philosophy has borrowed heavily from some other footballing cultures but I think/hope England are or could be better for it.

The U21 tournament was a fascinating study for this. The first game England looked to be adhering to the new philosophy, the philosophy that saw them qualify with aplomb, players with brains and game pictures such as Pritchard, Hughes, Carroll etc were being prioritised over the pure strength, speed physically strong players and the football and performances were better. England were really unlucky to lose to a very strong Portugal team who would go all the way.

The second game first half England were again playing well but not getting their just rewards, but the football was better and chances were be crafted not bludgeoned. Then Pritchard gets injured and Hughes is taken off at half time. The footballing structure of England's play disintegrates, the game becomes a stagnant bore fest with England barely stringing 5 passes together and creating nothing incisive, Carroll is then also removed but England get a lucky, individual goal from a long shot.

A false assessment is made by Southgate that the more direct approach succeeded. For The third game the philosophy is now completely ditched for the more robust, direct players like Chalobah and Linguard. England are woeful and get absolutely hammered. As they have at every tournament for a long time.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

From that interview with Keiran Smith I thought this bit was interesting:

Secondly, the playing time is a critical factor we need to look at. We work on individual ages in both nations for the lower groups, under 8, 9, 10, 11 etc. then when we get to 16 we move to under 18s. Then passed 18 we move to under 21s. So in two team you have leaped 5 years. This is the Pathway stage of development in the UK, we are producing fantastic players, but they are getting lost along this route. In Spain, the structure is different. So when a player gets to Cadete A, which is under 16s, they then move to under 17 (Juvenil C), under 18s ( Juvenil B) and under 19s ( Juvenil A). They’re all playing for promotion and relegation, and they’re only signing for 1 year so that means they’re only playing for their next year. So where an academy player in the UK plays 10 games in 2 years, the same player would play 60 games in the same time frame in Spain. To add to that, if they are improving they can jump up to different age groups(Jevenl B to A for example), but not massive leaps (18s to 21s for example) that could have a negative step as well as a positive. Different experiences, different caliber of players, internationals for example, and playing against some of the best teams in Spain such as Real Madrid, Atlético de Madrid etc, under great pressure of promotion and relegation. The Spanish player is always advancing through ages, up until 19, then they go to the B side, then they are knocking on the door for the first team and it is that constant movement, rather than stagnating in under 18s or under 21s.

It's something that creates a problem with Spurs academy often and I've often wondered why football in the UK is structured like this. It's like once a kid becomes 18 there's only 2 levels he can play, U21 or first team and if he sits somewhere in between he gets lost (or packed off on loan to some various godforsaken outposts).

A lot of personal and football development can happen between these two staging posts (18/21)and we are undoubtedly losing some talented players because there is this age level void or black hole where they don't quite belong in either group. The physically superior specimens or even the mentally more mature advance and the rest, who may just need more time to develop physically and mentally get lost.

We are losing some really talented, intelligent footballers because they have outgrown one level but are not quite physically or mentally ready for another.

And all this is happening at one of the most difficult times, emotionally, in a human's lifespan.

 

[TaoistMonkey]

You should rustle up some Spurs fans to boo and hiss from the sidelines to "toughen" them up

 

[Spurrific]

You should rustle up some Spurs fans to boo and hiss from the sidelines to "toughen" them up

That's a terrible idea, you know they'll target the haircut more than anything

 

[LukeBB]

Fair points and too be honest I agree with everything you say however being there in the moment is a lot different as I could see the kids involved getting visibly upset and the pressure from their parents was clearly getting to them.

My main concern is though that the coach had only shown them one way to play and soon as they came up against a team superior to them they collapsed and was clueless. I totally agree though they need to make their own match decisions but at 6 years old alot falls with how they are being coached and I still feel as Luke mentioned previously the level 1 and 2 coaches within kids football are not good enough.

I know of four coaches who all have level 2 and if you got into a conversation about football with them you would walk away after five seconds.

As a country I just think we should try and create on own philosophy which I do believe Dan Ashworth and co are trying to achieve instead of copying others.

It's a delicate issue always and I do think it was inappropriate that you suggested to the u7 to play the ball long into the channel etc mainly because you were interfering with another coaches team and perhaps undermining that coaches authority by doing so which challenges the kids views of the coach and who to listen to.

You had good intentions in mind and it's always hard to see kids get upset but you have to bear in mind that in terms of coaching a intricate passing system vs long ball etc is that if you take two teams of equal age (one coached to play long ball vs team coached to play short etc) and play them against each other over several years, in the first few years, the team playing long ball will always win as the other team make mistakes trying to perfect their short passing play but after a few years the short passing team will always beat the long ball team as they have developed numerous technical qualities and an intelligent playing system whilst the long ball team players won't have developed anywhere near as much.

Of course I see it as important that kids get an experience/ or at least appreciate different styles of play and I tried to do this with my players by prioritising dribbling over passing as I knew the next coach after me would prioritise passing etc.

Pressure from parents is a horrible thing to see and luckily I inherited a good understanding group of parents who were always supportive (though I think my age helped with that) but I believe it is up to the coach to talk to the parents as a group and tell them what he expects off them. One thing I always said to my parents is to "never give children the answer" i.e. don't tell them what to do all the time i.e. "pass, dribble, shoot, clear etc" otherwise the kids will never develop their own decision-making mechanism and when they're 16 they'll still be looking for you to tell them what to do.

It's a very tricky task and we perhaps have the wrong idea to create, as a nation, a singular footballing philosophy as each coach coaches differently. It's also very hard to put down a philosophy in words, especially in English using football lingo as it's rather restrictive and interpreted differently. The Level 1 and Level 2 very much focus on the structure and delivery of a session and contain very little useful information, the Youth modules are much better as their is a lot more theory discussed behind attitudes in youth coaching and focuses on how young players process information, how they learn and why they play and how we can help them. Really the Level 1 & 2 courses should be mixed with the Youth Modules but this wouldn't be anywhere as profitable for the FA (they prefer to break up the courses into as many separate courses as possible in order to maximise the money they receive sadly).

What to me is important is to promote the correct attitude when it comes to coaching, promote an attitude of development over results/ open-mindedness/ to be the best that we can be etc and sadly I don't see that sadly. Coaching is hard, a job that carries many responsibilities and a job where no one thanks you, especially in youth coaching when the work is voluntary, where there is a lack of resources and where parents always believe their child is better than he is etc so it is easy for many coaches to lose their way, abandon principles in order to satisfy others etc and in general there is a lack of support from the FA for our coaches.

 

[LukeBB]

That's a terrible idea, you know they'll target the haircut more than anything

You should've been there when I used to referee games haha I made it too easy for the unhappy spectators tbf

 

[LukeBB]

A lot of personal and football development can happen between these two staging posts (18/21)and we are undoubtedly losing some talented players because there is this age level void or black hole where they don't quite belong in either group. The physically superior specimens or even the mentally more mature advance and the rest, who may just need more time to develop physically and mentally get lost.

We are losing some really talented, intelligent footballers because they have outgrown one level but are not quite physically or mentally ready for another.

And all this is happening at one of the most difficult times, emotionally, in a human's lifespan.

This is so true nowadays when you look at so many players with young families and when you have players like Lamela for example, a young 20-something who has moved from Argentina to Italy to England in the space of 3 years. Too many players are treated like pieces of meat nowadays and the price tags have almost removed the "human" labels from these players and we forget the huge issues these developing adults face.

 

[LukeBB]

So I was wondering do you believe the advice I gave the defender was wrong because it was route one football going against what they were being coached, even though it had a successful outcome?

One thing we have to consider is, what IS a "successful outcome" when coaching players so young. Would it be more successful if that player booted the ball upfield which led to a goal? or if he controlled the ball and beat his challenger 1v1 but lost the ball later on? or if he played the ball back to his keeper etc?

When we consider "mistakes" in youth football, we cannot (as coaches and as spectators) conclude whether or not a "mistake" has been made w/o talking to the player. IF you talked to the player and he said "I saw my striker making a run into the channel so I played the ball to him" then yes, surely a successful outcome has occurred but IF he had said "I played the ball long because that's what you told me to do" then surely that player hasn't truly learnt anything and therefore it wasn't a successful outcome whether or not it led to a goal.

 

[mpickard2087]

Parents are still a massive issue in my recent experience. As I said I'm just starting to help out this year with an U8/9's team that my mates coaches, went to a couple of football tournaments a couple of months ago just to watch and it was actually a fairly depressing spectacle. Were both held during one of those School Fete/Community BBQ's so had a bigger crowd of parents than I imagine usually turn up during a season, but fucking hell I reckon there was more noise made than a packed Wembley stadium, with each dad (and a lot of mums to be fair actually) telling their kid and others what to do and so the kids are getting about a hundred shouty instructions at once. I don't think professional could have concentrated in that environment, let alone 8 year old children.

 

[Shanks]

I've started coaching my son's under 10's team, started at the end of the season and took them for the last tournament that they had.

They ended up winning the tournament, without conceeding a single goal.

In fairness, I did feel a little bad for what I did with the team, as part of their struggle was basic positioning, passing and moving into space.

So the few training sessions I worked on close ball control, how to create a bit of space, and movement off the ball.

The 3 front players, I used a spurs high press, and in the first game they went 5-0 up within 10 minutes, without our defence even touching the ball, purely because of that press and movement once they got the ball.

They've been promoted to the top division this season, pre-season started next week, and we kick off with a tounement of academy teams next Saturday, so all looking good.

I've not had any issues with parents, I learnt to keep my mouth shut last season, although I was mostly directing my son on what to do, rather than moaning at anyone else or the ref.

Example of last season, we played a team who were top of Div 1, we were Div 2 - we played really well, my son was tracking their winger, went in for a tackle, missed the ball and caught the player.

In fairness it should have been a foul, but the ref didn't call it. Their manager starting shouting at the referee and then shouted at his boys to start 'kicking back' at the players.

Even though I was just a parent, I naturally just shouted back at him - told him to wind his neck in, show proper behaviour from the sidelines and respect the ref.
The referee's dad came and spoke to me, and told me that it was his son's first referee game (15 yr old lad), poor kid.

I'm buzzing about this coaching, I've got 3 of the kids in acadamys, so we have a strong team to start - only issue I have is with my boy.

He is one hell of a natural goalkeeper - he could go far if he played in goal, but he's also very, very quick and skillful on pitch, so wants to be involved rather than sat in goal - I'll probably have him in midfield or on the wing this year, but he'll be having seperate keeper coaching at a local coaching school.