New Stadium Details And Discussions

davidmatzdorf

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The construction world on big projects like the stadium is quite small. General disbelief that Tottenham did not negotiate a fixed price contract or similar but the talk down here in NZ was no-one was prepared to take on such a contract and with constantly changing design who would take on that risk. Unfortunately it would appear we are in for a lot of the pain from the stadium delay and will be lucky if it only ends up costing 1.2 billion. If you want the real reason we were absent from the TW look no further.
I'm seeing several references to "fixed price contracts". There is no such thing in the British construction industry. I know from experience: I was part of a group trying to innovate just such things, called "partnering contracts" or "open book contracts", in the 90s. It turned out to be impossible to enforce, no matter how much pre-works sharing and co-operation one did, because it always involved the contractor taking on the risk of cost increases. Whenever a dispute came to court, precedent and case-law repeatedly ruled any such measures out as unfair contract terms. If a contractor, in all good faith, entered into a partnering deal and then lost money, their "claims department" would always come up with loopholes to screw some extra money out of the contract. Even if they never went to court, there would be a commercial settlement, just to get the damned thing off everyone's agenda and move on to the next scheme.

So instead, my area, which was affordable housing, abandoned traditional contract procurement and went for design-and-build contracts instead. You can transfer the financial risk to the contractor if you also transfer the design responsibility to the contractor - that's legal. But it comes with a cost in terms of quality: the developer loses control of the detailed design. You cannot seriously think that Daniel Levy and THFC would do that.

I got out of project-managing building contracts because I wasn't willing to put up with the dilution of quality and cheapskate shit that every contractor on a D&B job would try to get away with. You can spot these D&B housing estates all over London: the overall design of the buildings is quite imaginative, because it was devised by the developer's architect to get planning consent, but they are let down with cheap bricks, badly detailed windows, shoddy roofing details and half-cooked landscaping introduced by the contractor to save money and increase profit.

Instead, THFC went for a third option, which is construction management. The developer enters into the individual subcontracts (roofing, electrics, etc.) directly and they appoint a "construction manager", rather than a contractor, to coordinate everything: in this case, that is Mace. Mace have overall responsibility, but they are not cash-flowing the build and paying the subcontractors. The design control remains with the developer, but they have to do a hell of a lot of detailed work letting all these individual contracts and they are still exposed to the financial consequences of mistakes, unless they can charge liquidated damages against the construction manager.

I don't believe the rumour that Mace have no liability for damages for late completion. The usual thing with construction management is that you balance the damages clause with positive financial incentives for exceeding targets: if certain operations finish early, the manager gets paid more.

But the main point here is that the notion of a "fixed price contract" in the British construction industry is a fiction.
 
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thfc1973

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Based on the article, I am not as confident.

It sounds like Levy thought he could shave a few pounds off the cost if the Stadium was done early. The flip side was Spurs were on the hook if the project ran late. Had there been a fixed-rate contract, MACE presumably would have budgeted for a delivery date of June 2019. So, MACE will simply claim that a delivery date of August 2018, was never feasible, though they tried their best...
In large scale construction projects they are usually 2 types ; Lump sum, or cost reimbursable. This one would have been Cost-Re.

On most projects where the project generates money, there's usually an incentive or bonus to complete on time or earlier. If there was no penalty clause for delivering the project past the deadline, the only loss would be the prospective bonus MACE would have been awarded had it have been completed when originally scheduled. .
 

worcestersauce

"I'm no optimist I'm just a prisoner of hope
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So what is this £1.2b then? The delay will cost us £1.2b? Obviously not so is it the extra cost of the delay added to the original? I guess so in which case which original cost, the £400m for the stadium plus £800m delay costs? Obviously not so it can only be the overall £800m cost plus £400m delay costs. What that means is that the delay is costing as much as the entire cost of the stadium which is bloody ridiculous. I call bullshit.
 

neilp

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So what is this £1.2b then? The delay will cost us £1.2b? Obviously not so is it the extra cost of the delay added to the original? I guess so in which case which original cost, the £400m for the stadium plus £800m delay costs? Obviously not so it can only be the overall £800m cost plus £400m delay costs. What that means is that the delay is costing as much as the entire cost of the stadium which is bloody ridiculous. I call bullshit.
If we use very rough figures for labour rates, based on 2500 people on £200 per day, over 3 months extra, it equates to about £45m. I know some labour rates have been quoted as a lot higher but not everyone is going to be on silly money and I dont know if that number of workers is still correct either, but there is still a huge gap to bring it up to £1.2B from most recent quoted costs, so i agree to your bullshit call.
 

coys200

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So if the price has sky rocketed to £1.2bn where’s the money come from to pay it ? Have Mace put it on a tab ? Our current loan is about £350-400m. If we had to take out another major loan details would be all over the financials. So unless uncle Joe has paid it I suggest any talk of £1.2bn is total bollox.
 

davidmatzdorf

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So if the price has sky rocketed to £1.2bn where’s the money come from to pay it ? Have Mace put it on a tab ? Our current loan is about £350-400m. If we had to take out another major loan details would be all over the financials. So unless uncle Joe has paid it I suggest any talk of £1.2bn is total bollox.
It's nonsense, I agree, but not because of the figures you are proposing. Here's why:

http://spurscommunity.co.uk/index.p...-and-discussions.38802/page-1688#post-6031526
 

L-man

Misplaced pass from Dier
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Tottenham will have to pay the FA rent for the entire season if they want to stage matches at Wembley beyond their home game against Burnley on December 15. In addition to Champions League fixtures against Barcelona, PSV Eindhoven and Inter Milan, the club have secured the right to move the Premier League games against Chelsea, Southampton and Burnley to Wembley if there are further delays to the opening of their new stadium, although that option has yet to be activated.
 

Bulletspur

The Reasonable Advocate
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Another post copied from Skyscraper City, submitted by a West Ham fan.

"Don't believe a word you read .... a contact of mine who's company (betting) has boxes at nearly every EPL ground has been on two site visits, the latest one early this week .... he's not one to talk things up, he's a life long Man city fan and still humble with it, anyway he reckons it's by far the best ground for fan facilities that he's seen anywhere in the world, everything is fitted out to very high standards, even on the general concourse ... he's no builder but he reckons from what he saw it should be done in weeks rather than months ... of course he can't see behind the walls so who knows .... we might find out in April … "
 

Drink!Drink!

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Another post copied from Skyscraper City, submitted by a West Ham fan.

"Don't believe a word you read .... a contact of mine who's company (betting) has boxes at nearly every EPL ground has been on two site visits, the latest one early this week .... he's not one to talk things up, he's a life long Man city fan and still humble with it, anyway he reckons it's by far the best ground for fan facilities that he's seen anywhere in the world, everything is fitted out to very high standards, even on the general concourse ... he's no builder but he reckons from what he saw it should be done in weeks rather than months ... of course he can't see behind the walls so who knows .... we might find out in April … "
promising

with regard to the concourses. One of the a bit crap things about Wembley is they have concessions in the stadium, you know with expensive fish and chips and absolutely no where to sit down. Realised what a problem this was once when I was with my elderly father and his dodgy knees. we had to sit on the floor to eat it.

Do we know if our concourses will be like it, any pics? will there be places to sit and eat stuff
 

RichieS

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Dec 23, 2004
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8,188
promising

with regard to the concourses. One of the a bit crap things about Wembley is they have concessions in the stadium, you know with expensive fish and chips and absolutely no where to sit down. Realised what a problem this was once when I was with my elderly father and his dodgy knees. we had to sit on the floor to eat it.

Do we know if our concourses will be like it, any pics? will there be places to sit and eat stuff
You would think at least the "food court" in the South Stand will have plenty of seating.
 

Gb160

I could catch a monkey
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Jun 20, 2012
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promising

with regard to the concourses. One of the a bit crap things about Wembley is they have concessions in the stadium, you know with expensive fish and chips and absolutely no where to sit down. Realised what a problem this was once when I was with my elderly father and his dodgy knees. we had to sit on the floor to eat it.

Do we know if our concourses will be like it, any pics? will there be places to sit and eat stuff
This might be a stupid question but why didn't you take it back to your seats?...gotta be better than sitting on the floor.
 
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