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No surprise that 3 5 2 can work for us

Bobishism

*****istrator
Aug 23, 2004
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I don't remember Carrick being that far ahead of Dawson. Also consider that our defence have been instructed to play further up the pitch. Zokora's been playing classic holding position whilst covering the lackluster Dawson.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
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i still think only 1 stayed wide at any given point, but i do agree with the rest of what you are saying

Yup, I think it was a bit of a numbers game. If Chimbo overlapped, Bale stayed at home.

In one of the other threads there's a debate about Keano & Berba's movement being quite similar, and very different from Bent's. Bent is actually quite similar in style to Luis Fabiano @ Sevilla - a fast striker who plays on the shoulder of the last defender. This stretches the opposition defence, as do two pacy down-the-flank wide midfielders, allowing Kanoute to play a little deeper. So, for Sevilla, Fredi can link the play and when Fabiano attacks the six-yard box, Kanoute is arriving near the penalty spot.

Once he gets the players he needs to play 4-4-2, I can very much see Ramos using Bent in that Fabiano role. But that means only one of Berba and Keano can play the deeper (Kanoute) striker role. I think it would particularly suit Berba, but Keano's goals-per-game record is so outstanding that's he's pretty undroppable. Keano can play the Fabiano role, but he's not as fast as Bent so it reduces its effectiveness.

My point is that, at the moment, with a squad he inherited (rather than built), playing 3-5-2 enables Ramos to have his cake and eat it. He can incorporate the pacier Bent (or potentially Defoe), and have both Keano and Berba in the team. Plus Zoko seems well suited to playing as the spare CB.
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
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553
The point you seem to miss about 3 at the back is that it is never flat and somone is always slightly withdrawn to give the depth in defence. It requires greater thinking, touch and nimbleness of the feat from those in the system. Zokora and Chimbonda come in well here but it is just that a traditional CB like Dawson(who as much as anything lacks touch than speed) can sometimes get caught out. Some mentioned the word 'fluidity' and that it is probably going to be a key apspect of how RM will treat the side. He wants more from them. Players should be challenged and just as we won't play alternative situations in most situations, a blind adherence to 4 4 2 and reluctance to take risk were MJ's greatest faults as a coach, and I loved the guy.
Having people like Bale in the squad gives us options. Do people seriously believe that playing as a tradtional LB is his best position, attacking wide is his game. He also has the lungs and legs to up and back. When our CB injury situation improves Chimbonda would also benefit by playing sometimes as a wing back. While I am at it I believe that poor old Pedro Mendes was never played to best effect and would have occasionally done well in a three man central midfield that a more flexible system might require.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
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Agreed, Martin did tend to err on the side of caution, but I don't think he was quite as wedded to a rigid 4-4-2 as some suggest, and listening to him discussing tactics during the World Cup he was less concerned about formations as the balance between attack and defence and how it would vary through a game. I think his preference would have been for 4-3-3, but for whatever reason we never succeeded in signing the players that would have made it possible.

Curiously, the first half last night could very easily have been a performance under Jol; a lot of over-intricate passing, frequently sideways, that tended to break down at the edge of Aalborg's box; plenty of time for Aalborg to organise and nullify any threat. We had quite a few crosses fizzing in, but no-one there to meet them. It was switching the balance that really made the difference, with Huddlestone finding the kind of killer pass that no-one could supply before the break, Keane dropping back, and the pace of Bent causing all sorts of problems. He had the same effect that Defoe did in the fight-back against Villa.

It's interesting to speculate what might have happened had Jenas not picked up a knock; it's difficult to believe Juande would have taken him off otherwise, because he was one of the few players to emerge with any credit from the first half.

Frankly, I think that Juande decided to take the risk of taking off a defender, Lee, so that we could really go for it from the off in the second half. The gamble was that Aalborg would be kept so busy their ability to attack would be seriously limited, and that a reduced defence would be able to cope. It worked a treat. As I said, fortune favours the brave.

Now we might get away with a similar stunt, if need be, against Birmingham on Sunday, and probably against Anderlecht and City too. But Pompey away, City away and Arsenal away?

There seems to be no sucking teeth whilst dubiously shaking head smiley.
 

alfiespurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 8, 2006
4,058
374
All I remeber is that Glenn Hoddle tried this with us, when he was in charge and it was a complete disaster ( like the season). Howeer, Ramos is clearly much better at ensuring a clear understanding of this formation ...
 

N10toN17

New Member
Jan 22, 2007
1,288
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I think the 3 5 2 formation can work as well as any other formation, it's a matter of having the players who can carry it out. What I like about JR is, he has clearly decided to be very pro active on tactics and he'll certainly keep opposition managers thinking. I'd expect us to in the main play 4 4 2 but am fairly sure Ramos will change what he deems to be not working fairly quickly to gain a result.

It could also be fairly argued currently, that with our shortage of cb's 4 4 2 is not a good formation for us with Dawson the only man standing.
 

Spurs_Q8

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2005
3,161
139
All I remeber is that Glenn Hoddle tried this with us, when he was in charge and it was a complete disaster ( like the season). Howeer, Ramos is clearly much better at ensuring a clear understanding of this formation ...

nice try and a great work By Ramos for what he did until now, but can you compare Ramos starting XI with Hoddle starting XI to say this ?

it was never about understanding this because he already used it with other teams before his time at Spurs.

If Hoddle was on Charge, he would stick with:

................. Stalteri .... Kaboul .... Dawson ..............
Chimbonda ................................................... Bale

with 3 CM from our current squad or 2 plus Robbie Keane as Playmaker to give Bent a run .. I'm sure about this one 100%.


Also, I said it before JR arrival, our current player can be very good for 3-5-2 .. but no one believed me .. more to come when King backed to the team !
 

defoe18

The game is about glory..
Jan 19, 2005
1,692
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It's definately a good tactic to have up Ramos' Sleeve, worked a treat thursday
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
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3-1-3-1-2?

in this formation, are players like Routledge and Lennon surplus to requirement?

Ramos likes his wide boys. If Routledge had a Spurs future, he'd have shown Juande enough in training and reserve games to have been given a first-team chance by now. Unfortunately, it sounds like he had a stinker in his last ressies game, and I suspect young Wayne will be getting a new club for Xmas.

Back to the original question, in a 3-5-2, there's no room for Lennon unless one thinks he can play as a wing back. I don't, although he scrapped really well in an emergency at RWB 2nd half against the Spammers.

The really clever trick Juande pulled on Thursday, 2nd half, was to be able to incorporate three strikers playing centrally - Bent pushed right up, Keano and Berba floating between the hole and out-and-out strikers - and keep two players down both flanks. Lennon and Steed stayed wide, and Chimbo and Bale frequently joined them overlapping. This was possible because Zokora played in a hybrid position, as a spare CB covering Dawson and stepping up into DM to attack the ball. Hud played a little ahead of him pulling the strings in a more orthodox CM position. And thus in this 3-1-3-1-2 formation (roughly), because Chimbo and Bale were playing almost as FBs, there was a place for Lennon wide.

But I can't see us playing either of these formations - 3-5-2 or 3-1-3-1-2 - once Ramos gets the players in that he wants.

On that note, I saw the Catalan derby last night between Barca and Espanyol - with two of our targets (according to today's Observer) Jarque and Riera, playing for Espanyol.

Jarque was very vocal (he can certainly talk and presumably organize a defence), and is pretty big and reasonably pacy. He was left for dead on the turn a couple of times by Messi and Bojan. But then, Messi and Bojan routinely make pretty much every defender in the world look like a fool on occasion....

Riera looked a much more confident player than he did at Man City, setting up Espanyol's goal, and has recently been capped by Spain. However, the fact that he didn't have a great time in the EPL with City is a bit of a concern. But at least we're looking in the right areas: CB and LM. And presumably at CM, with Poulsen top of Juande's list if he does have a £7 million release clause.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
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I like the 3-5-2 formation, but also the 3-1-4-2 is interesting.

Spursking - I have no idea where you got 3-1-4-2 from, unless you're suggesting that either Keane or Berba was playing CM on Thursday, 2nd half...

For what it's worth, I think 3-5-2 with Chimbo and Bale as orthodox wing-backs, Berba in the hole, and Zokora as spare CB works OK for us, and Ramos may use it in matches when he needs to try something differnent.

I think 3-1-3-1-2, with Chimbo and Bale either side of Dawson at the back only worked against the Danes because they only had one striker and we had to go for it. Against EPL opposition, I think it would be pretty disastrous. I also think it's a waste of Chimbo and Bale, because they have even more defensive duties in a 3-1-3-1-2 than in a 4-4-2, and we all know they're much better going forwards than defending...
 

dannythomas

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2004
3,757
2,813
Chimbonda, Dawson, Zokora and Bale.

See, yanno, a back 3. :up:

:wink:

My idea of a workable 3-5-3 is 3 central defenders ( maybe King, Dawson and one from Rocha, Gardner and Kaboul or hopefully someone better in Jan ) and the midfield 5 should include 2 wing backs ( who could well be Chimbomba and Bale ). No place for Lennon though unless given one of the 3 CM positions. Playing 2 attacking full backs as part of a back 3 with Dawson maybe ok if you are chasing the game but I don't think it could ever be a realistic starting line up.
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
2,776
553
Agree with you Yanno, 3 5 2 might be undone by the top four EPL sides. I coach 4 sides here in oz and in the 82 games I was invoved in this season, it was my default line-up. This was primarily because I had the players to do so. Two fantasticlly fit WB's plus at least one person on the bench who also had the legs. It is particularly testing on the wide players but then the game is very much squad based nowdays. As a coach, I feel that having the third central midfield player makes the side very strong. Whether you play one and two or two and one also depends on the personell. Your posts recognise the flexibility it gives by having three of our strikers on the field. Do you not feel that Lennon could play in the hole? If he gets the opportunity to drop, turn and run centrally at the CB's he would win us countless free kicks.
It is refreshing that RM has already made several in 'game' formation switches. It will be something of an education for our vanilla 4 4 2 supporters. Hopefully, we will also see him make changes from positions of strength.......ie if we get a few up against the likes of Birmingham.
 

yanno

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2003
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Do you not feel that Lennon could play in the hole? If he gets the opportunity to drop, turn and run centrally at the CB's he would win us countless free kicks.

I do think Lennon could play in the hole. But as you say, primarily to turn and run at pace at the opposing CBs. As such, he would be a very different proposition from Berba in the hole, who I think is Ramos' first choice there. The advantage of playing Berba there is that he's a much more creative passer than Lennon, and has better vision.

In other words, because I think Berba is our best player, playing him in the hole in a 3-5-2, or as the deeper striker of 2 in a 4-4-2, should get him much more involved in the play. Which should benefit us as a team. He should be able to link play - either releasing our wide players and looking to get on the end of their crosses, or looking to play through balls for our strikers, or playing 1-2s with them and getting in himself.

As an out-and-out striker, Berba often gets fairly poor service from our midfield, and this is one reason why I suspect his East European sulky body language (speaking as an Anglo-Pole) can be rather too much in evidence.....
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
My idea of a workable 3-5-3 is 3 central defenders ( maybe King, Dawson and one from Rocha, Gardner and Kaboul or hopefully someone better in Jan ) and the midfield 5 should include 2 wing backs ( who could well be Chimbomba and Bale ). No place for Lennon though unless given one of the 3 CM positions. Playing 2 attacking full backs as part of a back 3 with Dawson maybe ok if you are chasing the game but I don't think it could ever be a realistic starting line up.

I'm glad it's not just me who manages to sneak an extra player on! :wink:
 
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