" One incident shows why Mason is preferred to Dembele

[markiespurs]

Also shows a lot of desire on Masons part to make a run like he did on 82 minutes

 

[nicdic]

I'm no fan of Dembele but to be fair if one central mid is going to make the run then the other should hold. If anyone else should be supporting the run it's one of the advanced players. The question is who had the midfield responsibility and who had the attacking? Townsend and Chadli were replaced by Dembele and Lamela but Stam was also making advanced runs it was hard to be sure who had responsibility.

All that said it was a great run by both Harry and Mason, great vision from Harry and just a shame it wasn't rewarded with a goal. Dembele might have been wrong not to make a run but funny enough I thought his late contribution was better than normal

I completely agree with your second paragraph, the first though I'm not completely sure on. Kane won the ball just inside our half, all our players were behind the ball, some deeper than others. Mason and Dembele were the ones who broke with Kane, and should have both broken with speed. There should be enough understanding from the rest of the team that if those two go others need to drop in a little. Dumbbell should have made the option on the other side.

 

[Kendall]

Er what? He had a header on goal and not much else. Look at what he did to Newcastle (and what he usually does to us), that's what I would call running the game/pulling the strings. Stambouli was on him the whole game and greatly limited him.

EDIT: From Manchester Evening News themselves...
"Rooney: Was in and out of the game and none of the spark he showed against Newcastle on Boxing Day. 6 (out of 10)"

I think Rooney was those that really did run out of steam.

 

[mil1lion]

It comes down to the mentality of a player. I'm shocked that Dembele was a forward earlier in his career because he doesn't have a forwards instincts. He loves to hold back and see the picture unfold in front of him.

It has been an issue with our wingers for a while too. I get so frustrated when one winger has the ball and the winger on the oppositie side isn't busting a gut to get into the box and attack the far post. There's a good few goals to be had in a season from attacking the far post from crosses but they always seem to hold back. It's why we don't play 4-3-3 because we don't have wide forwards. Although there's hope with Chadli and Lamela.

 

[VegasII]

The quote 'Lineker's using him by not using him' springs to mind in this thread.

Gotta say as an aside that Barry Davies was/is an excellent commentator.

 

[mpickard2087]

Shouldn't just be singling out Dembele. As I have said on numerous occasions, this is a problem with the majority of our players in the midfield positions.

Lamela, Townsend, Eriksen (most of the time), Lennon, Dembele... All of them like the game in front of them and aren't prepared to make runs ahead of the ball and stretch the play. It's so unbalanced and in my opinion why a lot of the time we have a lot of possession about 35-40 yards out, in front of the opposition. Most of those mentioned are also very reluctant to get in the box, and if you don't then you wont score goals... City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd, Bayern, Real, Barca and so on... For all their nice build up play still commit men (4, 5 maybe 6 at times) into the box. We usually have one, maybe two if we are lucky.

 

[iluvsteffenfreund]

Agree. The likes of Townsend, Lamela, Eriksen are there to make the runs beyond the striker. If Mason does as well, we need the other CM to sit back and hold the midfield.

Yep spot on. All midfielders have different roles if they all bomb on and get beyond the striker then it leaves a huge hole if it breaks down. If one goes one must hold. But to be honest we should have enough players running beyond the Kane and the ball with the 3 behind Kane. The central midfield 2 should be there to support and as an insurance if it breaks down. The problem when mason bombs on is eriksen won't sit in for him which means when mason doesn't get played in we are susceptible to the counter attack. Discipline is key for the cm2

 

[Rocksuperstar]

What the article describes - Mason breaking forward overlapping the striker, etc. - wasn't that what we bought Paulinho for? Wasn't that his "thing" back at his old club? I seem to recall videos of him doing exactly that, and scoring some absolute crackers, when he first arrived and we all got quite excited by it?

Granted, the quality of the opposition in South America is very hit and miss, so perhaps all of them were against really awful sides, but if Kane continues to develop at the rate and in the way he has been, showing not only a real eye in front of goal but the ability to hold it up and feed midfielders to attack as well, perhaps adding Paulinho to the rotation for a more attacking midfield role is an option? I get the impression Bentaleb is in need of a bit of a rest, he's looked a bit clumsy and indecisive out there recently, so shove the Brazilian further up field, get him finding space on the edge of the box when we're countering. I dunno, i just don't want to think we've let a player with a reputation go again, just because we didn't play him where he fits best and considering he's looked out of shape playing in a defensive roll, it's worth a shot, right?

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

Townsend is also same ... never make any long burstling run without the ball .....

I pissed myself laughing at even Jonny Evans leaving him in the traps..

 

[prawnsandwich]

Does anyone have a link to the incident?

 

[DaSpurs]

What the article describes - Mason breaking forward overlapping the striker, etc. - wasn't that what we bought Paulinho for? Wasn't that his "thing" back at his old club? I seem to recall videos of him doing exactly that, and scoring some absolute crackers, when he first arrived and we all got quite excited by it?

Granted, the quality of the opposition in South America is very hit and miss, so perhaps all of them were against really awful sides, but if Kane continues to develop at the rate and in the way he has been, showing not only a real eye in front of goal but the ability to hold it up and feed midfielders to attack as well, perhaps adding Paulinho to the rotation for a more attacking midfield role is an option? I get the impression Bentaleb is in need of a bit of a rest, he's looked a bit clumsy and indecisive out there recently, so shove the Brazilian further up field, get him finding space on the edge of the box when we're countering. I dunno, i just don't want to think we've let a player with a reputation go again, just because we didn't play him where he fits best and considering he's looked out of shape playing in a defensive roll, it's worth a shot, right?

Paulinho has been mostly played in an advanced role this season. This in truth actually limits his strength, as he was capable of making those runs when he had no marker. Paulinho is just not a playmaker, and especially not with the ball at his feet in the dribble, and offers nothing to open or thread holes for others. He needs to go to a more open league, as he's been given his opportunities at Spurs (including at multiple positions), and has been mediocre at very best.

 

[Blackcanary]

What the article describes - Mason breaking forward overlapping the striker, etc. - wasn't that what we bought Paulinho for? Wasn't that his "thing" back at his old club? I seem to recall videos of him doing exactly that, and scoring some absolute crackers, when he first arrived and we all got quite excited by it?

Granted, the quality of the opposition in South America is very hit and miss, so perhaps all of them were against really awful sides, but if Kane continues to develop at the rate and in the way he has been, showing not only a real eye in front of goal but the ability to hold it up and feed midfielders to attack as well, perhaps adding Paulinho to the rotation for a more attacking midfield role is an option? I get the impression Bentaleb is in need of a bit of a rest, he's looked a bit clumsy and indecisive out there recently, so shove the Brazilian further up field, get him finding space on the edge of the box when we're countering. I dunno, i just don't want to think we've let a player with a reputation go again, just because we didn't play him where he fits best and considering he's looked out of shape playing in a defensive roll, it's worth a shot, right?

I just don't think we can play Paulinho in a midfield two. He'd be a great option for a 3 but I think in a two he'd leave the other person with just way too much responsibility.

I'm all for a 4-3-3 as I think that would suit our players far more than just a midfield duo does. The brief times we've seen it so far this season it's just seemed that it produces so much more of a stable base for us.

I thought the CM 2 came in for a lot of unfair flack yesterday: Poch's preferred midfielders seem to be inexperienced at playing at this level (Mason/Bentaleb) or inexperienced in this league (Stambouli was making only his 5th appearance in the league yesterday). I believe that it was Mason and Stambouli's first time playing in the league together as a duo. There's nothing quite like a baptism of fire up against players like Mata. The second half was encouraging, and they did manage to keep Rooney in their pockets pretty much but...it's going to take time.

 

[Barry Mead]

I completely agree with your second paragraph, the first though I'm not completely sure on. Kane won the ball just inside our half, all our players were behind the ball, some deeper than others. Mason and Dembele were the ones who broke with Kane, and should have both broken with speed. There should be enough understanding from the rest of the team that if those two go others need to drop in a little. Dumbbell should have made the option on the other side.

I wouldn't argue with your point, I'm only thinking that maybe Dembele had been instructed to hold deeper, if so I can understand why he didn't go forward, on the other hand if he wasn't told to hold I agree with your comments and the opening post, just trying to play devils advocate.

 

[Blake Griffin]

whilst i think it's a good point and it highlights the difference in the players' mentalities, it's doing dembele a bit of a disservice. i'm watching it now, he and mason both run from more of less the same area of the pitch(mason mabe five yards back) and they are stride for stride up to the point that kane checks back inside, at this point you see dembele looking behind him, presumably to check we haven't committed so many players forward that we'd be prone to a counter-attack, mason carries on his run while dembele holds his position. so yeah, it's a valid point but it's making out that dembele half-heartedly jogged up the field whilst mason sprinted his little heart out when really they were neck and neck. lamela was in the same run, he started level with mason but lagged behind the other two. sometimes you need one to hold their position to occupy a defender instead of dragging them all into the same area.

also, there's not a single point where kane even looks for mason, yet he plays the ball perfectly for him. maybe he looked at the screen lol.

 

[Krafty]

It's Dembele's problem all over, he is far too happy playing it safe - positional, passing, general ethos.

I don't think he is a particularly bright player either (his best moments are individual, like beating a man or holding off a player) and he probable didn't realise where a player should make a run. In central midfield his positioning is very poor, and he just gets deeper and deeper and deeper because he is not aware of space further up the pitch.

He has also perfected the "I've run a marathon while shadowing boxing" look two minutes after his introduction from the bench.


He has ability but not the mental capacity to make use of it. I'm glad Poch has played him in a more advanced position because he should be scoring and creating opportunities, rather than covering the back line, but his role now seems to be as a late sub, offering a more advanced option to hold up the ball and relieve pressure on the defence.

 

[mattie g]

They are the future. I wonder how the United game would have panned out if Bentaleb was well.

Based on his recent form, he probably would have passed the ball straight to their midfielders about four or five times, allowing them to quickly counterattack in numbers. So I'm going to guess it may not have turned out all that well for us.

 

[mattie g]

I'm no fan of Dembele but to be fair if one central mid is going to make the run then the other should hold. If anyone else should be supporting the run it's one of the advanced players. The question is who had the midfield responsibility and who had the attacking? Townsend and Chadli were replaced by Dembele and Lamela but Stam was also making advanced runs it was hard to be sure who had responsibility.

All that said it was a great run by both Harry and Mason, great vision from Harry and just a shame it wasn't rewarded with a goal. Dembele might have been wrong not to make a run but funny enough I thought his late contribution was better than normal

Agreed completely, Barry. Holding in that situation is the smart play.

 

[Krafty]

Agreed completely, Barry. Holding in that situation is the smart play.

If Mason and Dembele were the two central midfielders, indeed. But Dembele was playing in the attacking trio behind the striker, swapping positions with Eriksen (one being central, one on the left).

Kane is breaking, with one other up for support. If Dembele also makes a run beyond, Utd counter us and the rest of the team cannot deal with it, it is not Dembele's fault.


The game is about scoring goals, not making sure we have nine men back when we are launching a counter attack. Get up there Mousa! If it breaks down, bust a gut to get back, then take a breather.

When playing only one striker it is imperative that players (plural) make efforts to get beyond him.

 

[eViL]

I think Dembele has been the biggest victim of our managerial changes over the last 3 years; Big, brave and strong, he was an absolute dream when we signed him. I personally think he's more suited to the forward three as opposed to being one of the two DMs. The restrictions of AVB's system, Sherwoods experimentation and now Poch's free running approach and I don't think the guy knows what he should be doing for the best.

I still hope Poch can turn it all around for the guy, because his natural attributes are second to none in our squad at present - but there's definite mentality problem there that can't be attributed to just one player in the squad.

Mason's forward running is exactly what the front 3 + 1 DM SHOULD be doing whenever a player is driving into the opposition with the ball - now that is the Pochettino philosophy.

The trouble is, we haven't had a player willing to make those driving runs with the ball up until Kane's baptism of fire - now the team are seeing new possibilities and opportunities open up; they've just got to be brave and FIT enough to bust their guts to take them. It's about having the faith in your team-mates to do the right thing if you are making the runs.

We've all been there on the pitch when there's a player who you either don't pass to or make a daring run for because you'll never see the ball back - having Kane is changing the entire dynamic of how we play.

It'll come good.

If anyone is in any doubt about how the system and players within it should work - watch last years Schneiderlin clips on youtube and watch how the front 4 react when he breaks up play - do we need that guy now? I still think we should pay Southampton what they want in January.

 

[miles_64]

I'm no fan of Dembele but to be fair if one central mid is going to make the run then the other should hold. If anyone else should be supporting the run it's one of the advanced players. The question is who had the midfield responsibility and who had the attacking? Townsend and Chadli were replaced by Dembele and Lamela but Stam was also making advanced runs it was hard to be sure who had responsibility.

All that said it was a great run by both Harry and Mason, great vision from Harry and just a shame it wasn't rewarded with a goal. Dembele might have been wrong not to make a run but funny enough I thought his late contribution was better than normal

This. This. This.

Well said, Sir. This is not a fair comparison. If one CM goes forwards, the other should hold. I still doubt Dembélé would have made the run had he been in Mason's shoes but this particular comparison is not a just one.

I have preferred Mousa deployed in the 3 this season. If only he had some end product!