Harry Winks - Leicester City

[Luka Van der Bale]

So playing a ponderous CB in CM is better because it means a CB can swap places with him in game and introduce some more CB playing as CM type play ?

Great tactical option.

A Spurs team you've acknowledged as the best you've seen employs this tactic regularly.

 

[Charly***]

So playing a ponderous CB in CM is better because it means a CB can swap places with him in game and introduce some more CB playing as CM type play ?

Great tactical option.

Meow.

I don't consider Dier to be a ponderous CB playing in CM, I think he's a decent DM and a competent CB. & as a hybrid unique in the English game.

& yes I believe a player carrying the ball from deep between lines can disrupt tactical systems & a player being adept at covering them is prudent in such scenarios. This isn't a new concept.

& by implication I could ask whether Jordan Henderson is your great tactical option, but that would be disingenuous. Because Jordan Henderson & tactical option are largely mutually exclusive concepts.

I.M.O. Dier give us greater tactical flexibility & better defensive discipline in the role. In terms of use of the ball I disagree Henderson fairs much better in comparison. But the most pertinent point is the club understanding. Training / playing together each week certainly gives you something extra.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

A Spurs team you've acknowledged as the best you've seen employs this tactic regularly.

But that team was better and I loved it more with Wanyama in CM last season than it was and i did with Dier the season before.

Just because I love this team more than any other, doesn’t mean I love everything about it.

 

[thelak]

But that team was better and I loved it more with Wanyama in CM last season than it was and i did with Dier the season before.

Just because I love this team more than any other, doesn’t mean I love everything about it.

Thanks for clarifying!! Don't need any more of those "fans" that back the players through dips in form....need more like you that get on their backs and call them out for the useless, ponderous players that only no marks like Mourinho and Poch rate

 

[Insomnia]

Thought this thread was about Winks then BC brings fucking Dier into it? Hijacked a decent thread with his anti Dier bollocks. First member I've ever put on ignore, sad day

 

[talkshowhost86]

I'd really like to see a Winks and Wanyama midfield combo.

I like Eric Dier and think he can be very effective in certain circumstances, although I do question how much we need him if we're already playing 3 at the back. I also like Dembele as he's such a unique player, but at times I just wish he'd pass the ball a bit more quickly.

I think Wanyama offers the dynamic presence in midfield we need, both defensively and at times driving forwards, whilst Winks offers that passing from deeper on the pitch that we simply don't get from any of our other options.

It remains to be seen how Winks develops defensively, but his positioning is sound and I think he could develop into a Carrick-style midfielder who doesn't necessarily need to tackle people because he's often just in the right place.

 

[Spurs 1961]

Winks got forward more in that England game and had to see less of the ball in deeper areas playing with Henderson than he did the week before in an identical formation (3421) playing next to Dier with Spurs away at Huddersfield. He also saw about 30% more of the ball, much more in forward areas, made more key passes and had a shot at goal, none of which he did playing net to Dier.

Winks with Henderson:

View attachment 33238

99 passes @ 96% - 3 key passes


Winks with Dier:

View attachment 33240

65 passes @87% - 1 key pass

Against a team like Lithuania, who just got deeper and deeper England (or Winks) really didn't need a defensive insurance man, they needed two CM's who could pivot and both look forwards and take a few risks. Henderson isn't great, but he's much more progressive and less risk averse and moves the ball quicker than Dier. And because he's more able to take the ball under pressure than Dier it didn't put as much pressure on Winks to have to drop so much to take the ball of the defenders looking for a conduit to play out.

As unfashionable and unpopular as this may be, but Henderson was a much better option next to Winks in that CM2 for that type of game.

Games in the future where England/Spurs may need a bit of defensive balance, that might be different.

The biggest problem for England Sunday night was how dreadfully inept the forward players (Rashford and Alli primarily) were at retaining possession and crafting chances.

But England got opened up by Lithuania and with a three man defence Dier sitting in front, allowing the wing backs and central defenders to roam forward and solidifying defence makes sense. It also frees up Winks to go forward creatively and not have to sit back. For Spurs it is different as we have creative players, in particular Eriksen

 

[Bulletspur]

Makes sense to me.

Not to me. I would like to think that Southgate would already know Henderson and Kane's qualities to be captain than to rely on one match to make that decision. Its not like he is seeing them both for the first time.

Just because I love this team more than any other, doesn’t mean I love everything about it.

This should be posted across the forum aiming at those who often question someone loyalty's to the Spurs cause by calling them haters, because they dare make a constructive criticism or point out any weaknesses in their favourite player.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But England got opened up by Lithuania and with a three man defence Dier sitting in front, allowing the wing backs and central defenders to roam forward and solidifying defence makes sense. It also frees up Winks to go forward creatively and not have to sit back. For Spurs it is different as we have creative players, in particular Eriksen

They got opened up more by Slovenia, Slovakia, Scotland, Iceland and played shite football too.

It’s like you didn’t see the touch map or read the actual facts I posted. Winks saw a shitlosd more ball and a shitload more in advanced areas, making more key passes playing with Henderson than he did playing with Dier the week before. He spent more time in his own half having to take the ball off defenders (because Dier doesn’t want it under pressure) playing with Dier than he did playing with Henderson.

This might not be the "forever" reality, different opposition might require different balance etc, but the only real tangible evidence that exists right now for the kind of scenario England faced, or Spurs faced when Dier and Winks played together last week certainly doesn't bare out your theory. Was you are mostly doing is kind of stating what you'd like to true as truth.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thought this thread was about Winks then BC brings fucking Dier into it? Hijacked a decent thread with his anti Dier bollocks. First member I've ever put on ignore, sad day

I know you won't read this, so we are effectively talking to each other by proxy, but since you decided to treat everyone else to another one of your BC diatribes I may as well reply. I didn't bring Dier into it, I presented an alternative view to someone who did. And yes, it is a fucking sad day when a grown up bloke feels so scared to encounter an alternative opinion that he feels the need to try and censor it.

 

[mill]

Again, I'm really sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your perception and the reality are quite different. It's very fashionable to champion "our" boy over "their" boy on forums but if we are dispassionate about it, it doesn't always stack up.

You seem to want to ignore some decent factual evidence, in favour of the "your own eyes" concept?

There isn't really much that Dier does that is better than Henderson. If we take 15/16 for Dier (the season he played entirely in CM) and last season for Henderson, Henderson makes a staggering 65% more passes per 90 (85 per 90min to Dier's 56). Also making 65% more completed passes. Despite making so many more per game Henderson completes a higher percentage of those than Dier (86% to 83%). He makes 62% more key passes per 90 min, creates 63% more scoring chances per 90 min, 65% more assists per 90 min, 33% more forward passes per 90, and here's the kicker, he even makes 36% more tackles per 90 min.

Now, this isn't me "hating" Dier or having an "agenda" against him, but just trying to introduce some reality balance.

England were fucking atrocious the last few games that Dier played, and most of those games he was playing with players like Kane, Alli, Walker, Tripper etc who he plays with hundreds of times and every day in training.

As I said, Henderson isn't my idea of "great" but in a game like that on Sunday, he was much better than Dier has been, because he's more dynamic, sees and recycles much more of the ball, moves it quicker, more incisively and more accurately than Dier does, these are pretty much facts (see below), one of the reasons is that he is more comfortable than Dier receiving and passing under pressure.

And if you look at the Dier/Winks and Henderson/Winks maps again you'll see that while these aren't thew whole picture and some nuanced tactical variation must be factored in, what you can't say is that Henderson was "worse" for Winks's (or England's) game than Dier was.

Here's some stats which might make you re-evaluate your perceptions. I've included Wanyama in there for shits and giggles, because he also gets through more ball, gives it away less, makes more key passes and chances than Dier.

View attachment 33243

View attachment 33244

Who would’ve thought Keown was a yid ‘championing’ dier’s passing over Henderson’s?

No doubt you’ll hit back with a scathing attack of his analysis as is par for the course on this forum on any pundit, but it goes to show it’s not just Spurs fans who think dier’s passing is better than Henderson. You’ll have to come up with a new angle to scapegoat him on now

 

[mill]

A Spurs team you've acknowledged as the best you've seen employs this tactic regularly.

I think AVB’s was his favourite

 

[mill]

I know you won't read this, so we are effectively talking to each other by proxy, but since you decided to treat everyone else to another one of your BC diatribes I may as well reply. I didn't bring Dier into it, I presented an alternative view to someone who did. And yes, it is a fucking sad day when a grown up bloke feels so scared to encounter an alternative opinion that he feels the need to try and censor it.

Almost as sad a day as when a grown up bloke accuses other supporters of being ‘the great unwashed’ for thinking AVB’s football was boring as fuck

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Who would’ve thought Keown was a yid ‘championing’ dier’s passing over Henderson’s?

No doubt you’ll hit back with a scathing attack of his analysis as is par for the course on this forum on any pundit, but it goes to show it’s not just Spurs fans who think dier’s passing is better than Henderson. You’ll have to come up with a new angle to scapegoat him on now
View attachment 33252

Amazing how someone not as good as Dier at passing manages to rack up more passses, more forward passes, more key passes, creates more chances, more assists isn’t it?

This maybe anathema to you, but footballer pundits aren’t always right.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Almost as sad a day as when a grown up bloke accuses other supporters of being ‘the great unwashed’ for thinking AVB’s football was boring as fuck

But not quite..

 

[mill]

Amazing how someone not as good as Dier at passing manages to rack up more passses, more forward passes, more key passes, creates more chances, more assists isn’t it?

This maybe anathema to you, but footballer pundits aren’t always right.

Maybe you’re not always right?

 

[Basil Brush]

Went looking for this thread.

We have a gun in this kid.

 

[coys200]

Went looking for this thread.

We have a gun in this kid.

It’s all very neat and tidy.But will need to start seeing more if he’s not to be another mason or Carroll.Imo he’s way ahead of those 2,but we need a little more to stop me wanting a £50m replacement for dembele.Its almost the only area we need to spend,so we could spend big.Currently Id say it’s a AM and CM next summer.We could easily look to £100m on those 2 and get real quality.we will have bits and bobs coming back janssen £20m Nkoudou £10m Ccv £10m etc .So £100m spend is realistic.Therefore Winks has to show this season he’s better than a £50m replacement.

 

[Shadydan]

It’s all very neat and tidy.But will need to start seeing more if he’s not to be another mason or Carroll.Imo he’s way ahead of those 2,but we need a little more to stop me wanting a £50m replacement for dembele.Its almost the only area we need to spend,so we could spend big.Currently Id say it’s a AM and CM next summer.We could easily look to £100m on those 2 and get real quality.we will have bits and bobs coming back janssen £20m Nkoudou £10m Ccv £10m etc .So £100m spend is realistic.Therefore Winks has to show this season he’s better than a £50m replacement.

Good luck with that £50m replacement, I wonder if Toni Kroos wouldn't mind leaving Real to come and join Spurs.

 

[Japhet]

It’s all very neat and tidy.But will need to start seeing more if he’s not to be another mason or Carroll.Imo he’s way ahead of those 2,but we need a little more to stop me wanting a £50m replacement for dembele.Its almost the only area we need to spend,so we could spend big.Currently Id say it’s a AM and CM next summer.We could easily look to £100m on those 2 and get real quality.we will have bits and bobs coming back janssen £20m Nkoudou £10m Ccv £10m etc .So £100m spend is realistic.Therefore Winks has to show this season he’s better than a £50m replacement.

I suspect Winks is doing what Poch has asked him to do until he settles in a bit better. Then, with luck, we'll see him cut loose and show more of what he can do.