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Harry Winks - Leicester City

DJS

A hoonter must hoont
Dec 9, 2006
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Henderson shouldn't be starting ahead of Dier

Depends on the formation Southgate uses for me.

If it's a back three I'm not too keen on Dier in midfield.

If it's a back four then it's much closer between the two and would go for which is in better form and the opposition - do we need a destroyer-type like Dier or would we be better off with more passing ability in Henderson?

Although I'm not the biggest fan of Henderson so would prefer a Winks / Loftus-Cheek combo if going for more mobility and passing.
 

nicdic

Official SC Padre
Admin
May 8, 2005
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Depends on the formation Southgate uses for me.

If it's a back three I'm not too keen on Dier in midfield.

If it's a back four then it's much closer between the two and would go for which is in better form and the opposition - do we need a destroyer-type like Dier or would we be better off with more passing ability in Henderson?

Although I'm not the biggest fan of Henderson so would prefer a Winks / Loftus-Cheek combo if going for more mobility and passing.
Henderson's passing ability?

Maybe I'm just blind, I just don't see what Henderson brings to the team other than shouting, pointing and hopeful balls down the channel. His performances at the World Cup were massively over exaggerated in my opinion. I agree that Dier is better when playing in front of a back four, but if it's always a choice between Dier and Henderson, I'd go Dier every single time. If we're looking to be more than a team that kicks it over the back line for a forward to chase, and want to play with more control and intelligence, then Henderson shouldn't be in the team.
 

Giovanni

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
2,587
3,614
Anybody got a gif of winksy getting done by thiago? Was an epic body faint even dembele would have aplauded. Poor winks nearly fell over haha
 

theShiznit

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2004
17,799
23,813
Anybody got a gif of winksy getting done by thiago? Was an epic body faint even dembele would have aplauded. Poor winks nearly fell over haha
When they showed the replay he (Thiago) didn't even do anything, Winks beat himself and then Thiago just stepped around him.
 

Trix

Well-Known Member
Jul 29, 2004
19,335
329,024
We have to vary our formation game to game and Winks can play in a central 2 or 3 which gives us great options
Why do we? The best teams set up to play their own game not worry about stopping the opposition. I'm all for Winks playing every game but the constant change of formation is far more a hindrance than it is helpful imo.
 

mil1lion

This is the place to be
May 7, 2004
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Why do we? The best teams set up to play their own game not worry about stopping the opposition. I'm all for Winks playing every game but the constant change of formation is far more a hindrance than it is helpful imo.
No they don't. The best teams change systems for different games. Guardiola is one of the best at it.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
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Why do we? The best teams set up to play their own game not worry about stopping the opposition. I'm all for Winks playing every game but the constant change of formation is far more a hindrance than it is helpful imo.

I’m still not 100% convinced what winks actually is. If he is playing in a 2 is he ideally the deeper player pulling the strings or the more advanced player. If it’s the later then he really needs to start adding some assists and chip in few goals. I’d say the same applies if he is the wide player in a 3. Imo though he’s actually a more deep laying play maker. The question then is though can he handle the defensive responsibility. It would be a much more attacking option to play him instead of Dier. But it’s all swings and roundabouts, what you’d gain in creativity in the middle of the park you’d probably lose in defence.
 

wrd

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Aug 22, 2014
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No they don't. The best teams change systems for different games. Guardiola is one of the best at it.

I'm not convinced by this, all the teams that have won the prem recently have kept near enough the same 11 aside from injury, Madrid similar in champions league. Teams with a system and set team seem to do better in my opinion. few tweaks over the course of the season but there's certainlly a rhythm over large stretches of the season.
 

nicdic

Official SC Padre
Admin
May 8, 2005
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I’m still not 100% convinced what winks actually is. If he is playing in a 2 is he ideally the deeper player pulling the strings or the more advanced player. If it’s the later then he really needs to start adding some assists and chip in few goals. I’d say the same applies if he is the wide player in a 3. Imo though he’s actually a more deep laying play maker. The question then is though can he handle the defensive responsibility. It would be a much more attacking option to play him instead of Dier. But it’s all swings and roundabouts, what you’d gain in creativity in the middle of the park you’d probably lose in defence.
The forwards are there for the goals. People tried to mark Carrick, Modric, and Dembele on goals and assists. It's the wrong metric. Winks is there to knit play and help set a tempo. Any goals or assists are a bonus.
 

mil1lion

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I'm not convinced by this, all the teams that have won the prem recently have kept near enough the same 11 aside from injury, Madrid similar in champions league. Teams with a system and set team seem to do better in my opinion. few tweaks over the course of the season but there's certainlly a rhythm over large stretches of the season.
You think the top teams stick to just one system? There's no chance playing the same team 3 games a week. Besides, we're not good enough to do that anyway. If you think we're good enough to put out one team under one formation and beat anyone then fair play. I just don't see it. We have to be a bit more creative than that. Sure if we have a team full of world class players we could do that but we don't.

If we play a team with 1 forward then I don't see any need for 3 centre backs. If we play a team with 3 world class forwards then 3 at the back is more necessary. There will be teams that sit back and teams that press high. If they play narrow and crowd out the midfield a central 3 may be needed to control the midfield. If they have pace on the wings we may struggle with wingbacks getting too far forward. So we may need wingers to help the fullbacks. We have to adapt to the opposition and see where the weakness is to exploit it.
 

mil1lion

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May 7, 2004
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I’m still not 100% convinced what winks actually is. If he is playing in a 2 is he ideally the deeper player pulling the strings or the more advanced player. If it’s the later then he really needs to start adding some assists and chip in few goals. I’d say the same applies if he is the wide player in a 3. Imo though he’s actually a more deep laying play maker. The question then is though can he handle the defensive responsibility. It would be a much more attacking option to play him instead of Dier. But it’s all swings and roundabouts, what you’d gain in creativity in the middle of the park you’d probably lose in defence.
For me Winks is a number 8. He's the link/pivot between the holding midfielder and the attacking midfielders. If we play 2 in the middle he's the one in the Dembele role just ahead of Dier/Wanyama. If we play a 3 he's one of 2 number 8s with one other either side of the holder. In a positional sense he's Dembele, he wont be the last line of defensive midfield and he wont create/score many goals, but he'll orchestrate the midfield.
 

wrd

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2014
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You think the top teams stick to just one system? There's no chance playing the same team 3 games a week. Besides, we're not good enough to do that anyway. If you think we're good enough to put out one team under one formation and beat anyone then fair play. I just don't see it. We have to be a bit more creative than that. Sure if we have a team full of world class players we could do that but we don't.

If we play a team with 1 forward then I don't see any need for 3 centre backs. If we play a team with 3 world class forwards then 3 at the back is more necessary. There will be teams that sit back and teams that press high. If they play narrow and crowd out the midfield a central 3 may be needed to control the midfield. If they have pace on the wings we may struggle with wingbacks getting too far forward. So we may need wingers to help the fullbacks. We have to adapt to the opposition and see where the weakness is to exploit it.

I think that the best teams have a main system i.e they don't change from back 4 to back 3 very often but they have slight adjustments within that system. How often have we seen Madrid over last 3-5 years change formation? I don't think City have made the level of changes we have to their system, when chelsea won it under Mourinho the system was the same up until the last 8 games or so. When leicester won it, was basically the same 11 throughout and When Conte won, he landed on the back 3 and stuck with that.

I think we need tactical flexibility but the way we have been changing our system so aggressively nearly every other game isn't good in my opinion and I'd say a large reason as to why we have not performed too well thus far as we keep chopping and changing.
 

mil1lion

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I think that the best teams have a main system i.e they don't change from back 4 to back 3 very often but they have slight adjustments within that system. How often have we seen Madrid over last 3-5 years change formation? I don't think City have made the level of changes we have to their system, when chelsea won it under Mourinho the system was the same up until the last 8 games or so. When leicester won it, was basically the same 11 throughout and When Conte won, he landed on the back 3 and stuck with that.

I think we need tactical flexibility but the way we have been changing our system so aggressively nearly every other game isn't good in my opinion and I'd say a large reason as to why we have not performed too well thus far as we keep chopping and changing.
I agree that the number of changes needs to be limited. It's an issue Guardiola had the season before last. I think he had about 10 different formations that season. There's sticking to a formation and there's adapting to the opponent. In fact sometimes the formation can look similar but play out differently. So we may play 4 at the back but if we press high the defensive midfielder splits the centre backs, but if we're pegged back they defend in front. Is the former situation still a 4 at the back or does it become a 3 with wingbacks? Either way it's different. If the formation isn't working do we stick to it (and risk conceding goals) or adjust on the fly?

Again though you're bringing up the Real Madrids and Citys of the world. We're not that level. As far as Leicester goes they had no European football, as with Chelsea the following season so it's easier to stick with the same team. We're not like a Real Madrid or Barcelona where we can dominate possession and play our way most of the time. We're not even keeping the ball well enough this season anyway. We're getting exposed in the fullback positions in those games because the fullbacks push on and we give the ball away to be countered. When we keep the ball better the fullbacks actually receive the ball. If we're getting outnumbered in one area though we have to make the positional change to regain control.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
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No they don't. The best teams change systems for different games. Guardiola is one of the best at it.
Guardiola’s best team by far, his Barcelona side, never changed formation, never changed style (even with the clock ticking down and going out to Chelsea until that Iniesta strike), and had very little personnel shirt too, and that was across seasons rather never mind within season.
 

mil1lion

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Guardiola’s best team by far, his Barcelona side, never changed formation, never changed style (even with the clock ticking down and going out to Chelsea until that Iniesta strike), and had very little personnel shirt too, and that was across seasons rather never mind within season.
Actually he did on occassion, particularly in the Classico. In fact sometimes he went with 2 defensive midfielders in tough away games so it was more like a 4-2-1-3. He played Eto'o out and out, and then Ibrahimovic to Messi as a false 9 so even the front 3 changed. He would tuck Iniesta in from the left at times too. All different formations and not always linear ones. Besides, again, we're talking about one of the greatest teams of all time which we're not. Anyway, formations are so much more dynamic nowadays even since then and that's why Pep changed things at Bayern and now City. I think one constant that still works in this day and age however is 'total football'. Players that can adapt to different roles as a game progresses just as that Barca team did so well. It just shows how ahead of his time Cruyff was and how even now teams are still catching up.

I do agree about the philosphy though, that has to remain regardless of formation. We have to pass out from the back, press in packs without the ball and show for the ball with it. I do believe when we're on point and probing, even at 0-0 late into the game, we will break the opposition down. It frustrates me when fans start getting edgey when we're not in front after 60 minutes. Yet a team like Barca can go into the 80 minute mark and they're still so relaxed. We still have a way to go I guess to earn the belief from fans.
 
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