Player watch: Josh Onomah

[dontcallme]

Ironic thing about Josh is if he didnt go out on loan this season he would have probably got a handful of starts in his prefered position with all the injuries we've had. Luck plays such a big role in a kids breakthrough at this level and Josh seems to have none of it.

At the beginning of the season I said he'd struggle for games if he stayed here. Winks appeared to be ahead of him in the pecking order.

I could see any combination of Dembele, Dier, Wanyama and Winks starting. But I couldn't see Winks and Onomah starting together. So Onomah would either play the more advanced role or get no game time.

But you are right, with our injuries he actually could have got game time if he'd stayed. Shame but no way we could have seen it coming.

 

[EQP]

Is he given the chance to play that role in training? Because what happens in training is way more important in terms of improving than playing games. Sure playing games is important but training is where you really develop your game.

Can't really speak to what is going on at Villa regarding the choices that Steve Bruce is making but I do remember ITK from the summer as one of the SC members was at several open training sessions. The ITK stated that Onomah was paired with Moose as CM's and was looking the part. Another note is, we've had ITK stating that KWP is one of the best trainers in the team as a RB and he still can't get minutes in the league. So it is definitely not just based on training as KWP would've been awarded more starts in his preferred position of RB.

 

[DCSPUR]

funny thing is that a few seasons ago, Dembele started pre-season further forward and on the right --- not his preferred role....he managed to convince Poch to move him back to the middle....guessing it was a lot of hard work.

I really do appreciate the insights of the youth watchers here, @IGSpur, @spurs9 and many more....but just seems to me that there is something missing on JO's side. Poch has shown he isn't shy to bring through youngsters so something else is at work.

 

[glospur]

IMO, Winks works harder off the ball than Josh and thus earned the playing time at CM. Poch is not going to give Onomah playing time in CM, he is going to have to earn it.

Exactly! Which he quite clearly hasn't done yet.

But no. Of course it's Bruce's fault, or Villa's fault, or Pochettino's fault, and of course he's entitled to play games in CM simply because he is Josh Onomah and he came from our academy.

 

[allpaths]

Exactly! Which he quite clearly hasn't done yet.

But no. Of course it's Bruce's fault, or Villa's fault, or Pochettino's fault, and of course he's entitled to play games in CM simply because he is Josh Onomah and he came from our academy.

I dont think it's Villa's fault or Onomah's fault that his loan isnt going as well. I think it's whoever at spurs who thought that sending Josh to a place like Villa, was good for his development. At this point I'd rather send him to a league one side that would play him in his position.

Nobody is saying that Poch should just hand Onomah the #8 shirt and he should be the first name on the team sheet. Most people would just like to see him trusted in to play in the position were he is one of the most exciting prospect in world football.

Josh has a lot of holes in his games and it's on him to work on it, If he wants stick with spurs longterm. It'd be nice for Poch to take a chance on him, I think everybody needs that person to stick their neck out, believe in them and give them a proper opportunity.

 

[EQP]

Exactly! Which he quite clearly hasn't done yet.

But no. Of course it's Bruce's fault, or Villa's fault, or Pochettino's fault, and of course he's entitled to play games in CM simply because he is Josh Onomah and he came from our academy.

I was waiting for one of these posts, cheers.

 

[glospur]

I dont think it's Villa's fault or Onomah's fault that his loan isnt going as well. I think it's whoever at spurs who thought that sending Josh to a place like Villa, was good for his development. At this point I'd rather send him to a league one side that would play him in his position.

Nobody is saying that Poch should just hand Onomah the #8 shirt and he should be the first name on the team sheet. Most people would just like to see him trusted in to play in the position were he is one of the most exciting prospect in world football.

Josh has a lot of holes in his games and it's on him to work on it, If he wants stick with spurs longterm. It'd be nice for Poch to take a chance on him, I think everybody needs that person to stick their neck out, believe in them and give them a proper opportunity.

Youre having a lend surely. One of the most exciting CM prospects in world football? It's this kind of hyperbole that is symptomatic of the problem with people's opinions on Onomah. The expectations are ridiculous and people let it colour their opinions instead of using the evidence what he's actually done at a senior level.

And what would have happened if he went to League 1 and wasn't played in CM because he lacks the required workrate and defensive diligence? You would be saying the exact same thing, "We should be sending him somewhere where he will play CM."

What's actually happened is that two managers, one in the Premier League and one in the Championship, have judged him not good enough to regularly play/start at CM in their teams, and yet the armchair experts in here want him to come back and be given a chance as a primary CM rotation and castigate Pochettino and club when they refuse to do so.

Honestly, I hope he comes back from his loan and convinces Pochettino next preseason that he's ready to work harder, concentrate better, and make that spot his own. As I said, I like the kid and it's clear to everyone how much talent he has when he gets on the ball.

But the facts are that he hasn't done that yet and he's showed nowhere near the required level in either the Premier League or the Championship. That's not expectation, that's performance, and on performance at a senior level he's not there yet.

I was waiting for one of these posts, cheers.

It's remarkable how often it comes across like that though.

I like the kid, but he has to earn his chance first. Like Winks did, for example.

Do you really think that if he was from Villa's academy and playing like he is that we would have people clamouring for him to be brought in and made a primary rotation in CM? Of course not.

 

[allpaths]

Youre having a lend surely. One of the most exciting CM prospects in world football? It's this kind of hyperbole that is symptomatic of the problem with people's opinions on Onomah. The expectations are ridiculous and people let it colour their opinions instead of using the evidence what he's actually done at a senior level.

And what would have happened if he went to League 1 and wasn't played in CM because he lacks the required workrate and defensive diligence? You would be saying the exact same thing, "We should be sending him somewhere where he will play CM."

What's actually happened is that two managers, one in the Premier League and one in the Championship, have judged him not good enough to regularly play/start at CM in their teams, and yet the armchair experts in here want him to come back and be given a chance as a primary CM rotation and castigate Pochettino and club when they refuse to do so.

Honestly, I hope he comes back from his loan and convinces Pochettino next preseason that he's ready to work harder, concentrate better, and make that spot his own. As I said, I like the kid and it's clear to everyone how much talent he has when he get's on the ball.

But the facts are that he hasn't done that yet and he's showed nowhere near the required level in either the Premier League or the Championship. That's not expectation, that's performance, and on performance at a senior level he's not there yet.

Now your just acting like a twat mate, I'm not letting Onomah's pedigree blind me at all. And if you knew anything about the clubs that are still chasing after Onomah then you'd understand why it's important to put him in the best position for him to grow and improve.

A big part of coaching is putting players in the best position to perform. So far none of the senior managers Josh has had in his career have done that. How is he suppose to perform when none of his managers trust him enough to go out and do his job?

I know people like you think that if a player cant commit himself to training his nutsack off to improve or show that he has a good attitude, then a player is garbage. Their are some skills in the game of football that for some players arent easily learnt on the training pitch and are more effectively learnt through real game expierence.

But first you need a manager that is willing to give you a break no matter at any level. I just want to see him given a solid run at CM at a decent level and if he is then deemed to be too big of a liability, then I'll gladly be able to accept that this Onomah kid was a fraud.

And I still think you're misunderstanding what kind of role I want Onomah to have in the squad. BC i don't think he should start league matches, unless we have some sort of freak injury crisis like we had early on. I'd just like to see him get some minutes in CM during the preseason, get some starts in CM in the early round of the cup and fight for a spot on the bench. All I want is for him to replace the waste of space that is Sissoko, that's all, then we'll find out if he can make it or if he's rubbish and we can lump him off so that he can properly start his career.

 

[glospur]

Now your just acting like a twat mate, I'm not letting Onomah's pedigree blind me at all. And if you knew anything about the clubs that are still chasing after Onomah then you'd understand why it's important to put him in the best position for him to grow and improve.

A big part of coaching is putting players in the best position to perform. So far none of the senior managers Josh has had in his career have done that. How is he suppose to perform when none of his managers trust him enough to go out and do his job? I know people like you think that if a player cant commit himself to training his nutsack off to improve or show that he has a good attitude, then a player is garbage. Their are some skills in the game of football that for some players arent easily learnt on the training pitch and are more effectively learnt through real game expierence.

But first you need a manager that is willing to give you a break no matter at any level. I just want to see him given a solid run at CM at a decent level and if he is then deemed to be too big of a liability, then I'll gladly be able to accept that this Onomah kid was a fraud.

And I still think you're misunderstanding what kind of role I want Onomah to have in the squad. BC i don't think he should start league matches, unless we have some sort of freak injury crisis like we had early on. I'd just like to see him get some minutes in CM during the preseason, get some starts in CM in the early round of the cup and fight for a spot on the bench. All I want is for him to replace the waste of space that is Sissoko, that's all, then we'll find out if he can make it or if he's rubbish and we can lump him off so that he can properly start his career.

How is expressing an opinion being a twat? Unlike you with that accusation I never went ad hominem.

The clubs chasing him really have got nothing to do with it. it's performances that matter and so far he isn't to a point where he should be regularly playing.

Which comes first though? Should managers just gift a player games in their favoured position or should they demand it through application, training and performances? I think you and I (and seemingly Pochettino) differ on that philosophy. Why should coaches put him in that position when he hasn't demanded through weight of performance that they should do so?

I never said he was a fraud or garbage either. That's unfair. In fact, I'v regularly said that I like him. Actually I'm pretty sure I regularly defended him a few years ago (perhaps even in this thread) when people were laying into him. He's definitely got talent, but he's done nothing at senior level to demand that he's given an extended chance at CM.

As for you last paragraph, I agree. I'd also like to see him given a chance in pre-season and I hope he is. But it's clear that he has significant deficiencies that he needs to work on for him to become the player that many think he can be. You're naive if you think Pochettino, and even Bruce, havern't been working on those deficiencies with him, but it also comes down to hard work on Josh's side as well.

As for Sissoko, Pochettino recently explained why, in his words, he's 'an important part of the squad,' and incidentally it's actually because he is 'proficient' in areas where Josh is lacking. His ability on defensive transition, athleticism and work rate have all been praised by Pochettino. Personally, i don't think that makes up for his complete lack of ability on the ball, but it gives an insight into what Pochettino is looking for in midfielders and that just happens to be a lot of things lacking in Onomah's game.

 

[allpaths]

How is expressing an opinion being a twat? Unlike you with that accusation I never went ad hominem.

The clubs chasing him really have got nothing to do with it. it's performances that matter and so far he isn't to a point where he should be regularly playing.

Which comes first though? Should managers just gift a player games in their favoured position or should they demand it through application, training and performances? I think you and I (and seemingly Pochettino) differ on that philosophy. Why should coaches put him in that position when he hasn't demanded through weight of performance that they should do so?

I never said he was a fraud or garbage either. That's unfair. In fact, I'v regularly said that I like him. Actually I'm pretty sure I regularly defended him a few years ago (perhaps even in this thread) when people were laying into him. He's definitely got talent, but he's done nothing at senior level to demand that he's given an extended chance at CM.

As for you last paragraph, I agree. I'd also like to see him given a chance in pre-season and I hope he is. But it's clear that he has significant deficiencies that he needs to work on for him to become the player that many think he can be. You're naive if you think Pochettino, and even Bruce, havern't been working on those deficiencies with him, but it also comes down to hard work on Josh's side as well.

As for Sissoko, Pochettino recently explained why, in his words, he's 'an important part of the squad,' and incidentally it's actually because he is 'proficient' in areas where Josh is lacking. His ability on defensive transition, athleticism and work rate have all been praised by Pochettino. Personally, i don't think that makes up for his complete lack of ability on the ball, but it gives an insight into what Pochettino is looking for in midfielders and that just happens to be a lot of things lacking in Onomah's game.

Bc you're willfully overlooked Josh's pedigree that make him a top prospect, it's just ignorant and misinformed. Now being a top prospect shouldnt mean he gets anything handed to him, but we should do better and it should get him the opportunity to prove himself at a decent level. I do apologize, I shouldnt have called u a twat that was uncalled for and not what I meant. I got carried away.

It's an extremely difficult balance between faith and earning a spot. IMO if a lad like Onomah has been in the system for over ten years and comes out highly rated by John McDermott then I'd like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I just think when we are competing against these fianancial doping clubs, we need to take advantage of any possible way the club can. And I've seen too many cases were a player across all sports, were a player isnt given a proper chance, go elsewhere and smash it.

As for Sissoko, look back on the goals we concided against West Ham and Southampton. Definsively he is at least partially culpritable for both of those goals. So I'd argue he isnt even a complete lockdown midfield option. This is pure speculation and full of my bias, but I gotta believe that Poch's quote's on Sissoko is nothing more than maintaing Sissoko's value for a summer transfer. Could be wrong, but it would be truely sickening if Sissoko is still a part of this squad after the summer.

 

[smallsnc]

The thing is that it is hard on managers to just put a lad out there hoping he will overcome the shortfalls that they see everyday in training. If he is not working hard enough on the defensive side in training, why would a manager who is judged on wins losses and is trying to get a team promoted going to take that chance. He really can't afford to. I watch Josh's appearance over the weekend, good on the ball but slightly lazy off the ball. His body stance when he is not on the ball in too tall and he has to take an extra split second to accelerate, that is the difference from getting to a ball first or not. He won some tackles well but at least one was because he was not ready to get to the ball first so he had to make the tackle to make up for it.

I really think there is a player there but he has to want to get there and I do not see that urgency when he plays.

 

[EQP]

It's remarkable how often it comes across like that though.

I like the kid, but he has to earn his chance first. Like Winks did, for example.

Do you really think that if he was from Villa's academy and playing like he is that we would have people clamouring for him to be brought in and made a primary rotation in CM? Of course not.

Fair enough, I can see where it can come off like. For those who've watched JO, we know that he's really a talented CM with amazing potential. It sucks that after winning the U20 WC, where he dominated and controlled games from the CM/DM position and where his confidence was sky high, Poch failed to capitalize on that give JO some minutes as a CM. Even in the preseason games, JO was played as AM/pretty much anywhere but CM. My whole issue is, he's never been a given a fair run to play as a CM in our team with our other 1st teamers. I can guarantee you JO can do a better job defensively than Nabil or Ryan Mason did for us but he's never given the chance to show that. We keep judging him on the this loan and the fact that he's not thriving playing in positions that he's not suited and then using those same performances as justification for why he'll never excel as a CM.

Also, I read many posts that suggest that JO must not be showing enough in training to merit a start in the CM position. I would like to point out that as much as love Poch for his application of meritocracy, he doesn't always keep his word with that. Look at the case of KWP, we had ITK from Hercules earlier this year stating

Trippier won’t go in January, but possible in summer. KWP wants a loan, Poch wants him to stay, learn and fight. He believes he is not getting fair chances, and one of best trainers, always impressing. We have hinted we want to revisit his recent contract with a new one. He wants to wait and see.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...thread-1st-january.131300/page-5#post-5710774

So in KWP's debut for us in the league, he plays in the RB position, has a solid performance and even wins man of the match and then as a reward, he's never played RB since then. He is then shafted by playing LB, where he invariably struggles ( as would Trippier) and really can't even get any minutes in his preferred position. Is that fair? I mean KWP is doing everything right but even he can't get any minutes in our team. So whats to say that JO isn't in the same boat?

EDIT: ITK on JO during the summer

And Josh said that he felt like he get unfairly threatened at times and should’ve got more game time because he felt he 90% of the time he always performed well in training. He used to sometimes after training stay with Mousa Dembele to learn a few things from him, he looked up (still looks up) to him. And Mousa said to him that he’s the closest he’s seen anyone like him in terms of football qualities.
Poch speaks to the academy players from when they’re very young and he has a good relationship with Poch and Josh has multiple times said that he wants to play in the Dembele role but Poch always said that he wasn’t ready and that position is the most risk position. Poch is stubborn and won’t change his opinion quickly, so Onomah suggested for over a year that he should go out on loan but Poch disagreed and Josh got a bit frustrated since he didn’t even get the chance here. But he kept moving on. After the World Cup Josh came back earlier than expected to pre season just to impress on the staff, he went to the gym much more but instead Poch felt like Josh gave the wrong impression and came out a bit over confident and cocky. Josh spoke to Poch multiple times in the summer, almost demanding getting a real chance in midfield and Poch got a bit frustrated since he told Josh to be patient, so Josh pushed for a loan move and eventually Poch gave the thumbs up, Josh missed out on 2 Premier League clubs and got a bit mad at that but he accepted a Aston Villa loan move. Bruce and Poch had talked for some times and Bruce is a big Onomah fan

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...watch-josh-onomah.123533/page-64#post-5713011

 

[Johnny J]

Poch has shown he isn't shy to bring through youngsters so something else is at work.

Who are all these other youngsters that Poch has brought through from our Academy?

 

[EQP]

Who are all these other youngsters that Poch has brought through from our Academy?

TBF Winks is a player that Poch has successfully integrated from the U23's into the 1st team.

 

[thefierycamel]

TBF Winks is a player that Poch has successfully integrated from the U23's into the 1st team.

literally the only one though and that's frustrating

 

[Johnny J]

literally the only one though and that's frustrating

Exactly. I don't know why Poch is held up by some as a great promoter of youth. He isn't, at least from the academy.

 

[glospur]

Exactly. I don't know why Poch is held up by some as a great promoter of youth. He isn't, at least from the academy.

That's such a narrow way of looking at it though. There's so much more to consider than just whether they're from the academy or not.

First, obviously, they have to be talented enough. Second, they have to follow team instructions and know their role. Third, they have to work hard enough to earn their chance. Fourth, there has to be an opportunity arise in the first team for them or they have to perform so well that they demand a spot over their team mates,

Again, players shouldn't be entitled to play just because theyre from the academy. How do you know it's just that the players everyone here wants to be part of the squad just haven't met enough of this criteria, and any other criteria that the coaching staff may have? Why is there always a need to apportion blame and why does it always go to Pochettino? Why is there not more responsibility placed on the player instead of just the tired, hackneyed "Pochettino's no good with youth?"

 

[Johnny J]

That's such a narrow way of looking at it though. There's so much more to consider than just whether they're from the academy or not.

First, obviously, they have to be talented enough. Second, they have to follow team instructions and know their role. Third, they have to work hard enough to earn their chance. Fourth, there has to be an opportunity arise in the first team for them or they have to perform so well that they demand a spot over their team mates,

Again, players shouldn't be entitled to play just because theyre from the academy. How do you know it's just that the players everyone here wants to be part of the squad just haven't met enough of this criteria, and any other criteria that the coaching staff may have? Why is there always a need to apportion blame and why does it always go to Pochettino? Why is there not more responsibility placed on the player instead of just the tired, hackneyed "Pochettino's no good with youth?"

I agree with everything you've said, and I didn't say that Poch is no good with youth. I just don't think he's better than any of the other big managers.

And I would say, regarding opportunities in the team, that perhaps KWP could feel slightly aggrieved that instead of giving him a chance as back up to Trippier (after his excellent performances for England, in training by all accounts, and his motm performance in our opening game), we went and bought Aurier.

For avoidance of doubt, I think Aurier is a good signing and I hope that this summer we sell Trippier and rotate Aurier and KWP.

 

[ebzrascal]

can we find him a good Bundesliga club for him rather than the championship?

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Youre having a lend surely. One of the most exciting CM prospects in world football? It's this kind of hyperbole that is symptomatic of the problem with people's opinions on Onomah. The expectations are ridiculous and people let it colour their opinions instead of using the evidence what he's actually done at a senior level.

And what would have happened if he went to League 1 and wasn't played in CM because he lacks the required workrate and defensive diligence? You would be saying the exact same thing, "We should be sending him somewhere where he will play CM."

What's actually happened is that two managers, one in the Premier League and one in the Championship, have judged him not good enough to regularly play/start at CM in their teams, and yet the armchair experts in here want him to come back and be given a chance as a primary CM rotation and castigate Pochettino and club when they refuse to do so.

Honestly, I hope he comes back from his loan and convinces Pochettino next preseason that he's ready to work harder, concentrate better, and make that spot his own. As I said, I like the kid and it's clear to everyone how much talent he has when he gets on the ball.

But the facts are that he hasn't done that yet and he's showed nowhere near the required level in either the Premier League or the Championship. That's not expectation, that's performance, and on performance at a senior level he's not there yet.


It's remarkable how often it comes across like that though.

I like the kid, but he has to earn his chance first. Like Winks did, for example.

Do you really think that if he was from Villa's academy and playing like he is that we would have people clamouring for him to be brought in and made a primary rotation in CM? Of course not.

Bang on