Pochettino halts Tottenham search for head of recruitment

[Bus-Conductor]

Firstly, Sanchez and Aurier are both first team regulars, we rotate our fullbacks, so that's two. Moura I'm not sure what catagory you've put him in but he's clearly in the first team plans, if a bit rusty. Then sissoko, like him or not has clearly been an important part of the squad this season.

The rest yeah sure, but you've been slightly disengenous by including signings of players meant to be backups. Janssen and llorente was never meant to overtake Kane, they were always meant to be back ups so although they underperformed, to paint them as failures because neither became first choice is weak.

Wanyama 10m, dele 5m, dier 4m, alderwiereld 11m, Davies 10m, trippier 3.5m, son 22m, vorm 5m
(All roughly)

That's 8 first team players for 70.5, it works both ways. Show me a significantly better, consistent recruitment record and your point will be valid but until then I'll stick with the manager who's consistently improved our first team and squad on a 0 net spend budget.

But most of those “great value” signings were made when we had a “head of recruitment” weren’t they?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Lloris
Aurier Sanchez Alderweireld Davies
Sissoko Dembele
Moura Lamela Son
Llorente

Kane
Dele Eriksen
Rose Winks Wanyama Trippier
Vertonghen Dier Foyth
Vorm
​

Most extensively acquired team currently at the club v Most cheaply acquired team currently at the club. Yes, there’s players like Njie, Nkoudou, Fazio, Janssen, Stambouli to also account for, all clearly not successes, but I thought looking at what remains would be interesting. 5 of the more expensive team were £15m or under, and in total it cost less than Pogba + Lukaku + Martial. It’s also interesting that 5 of the cheaper team, with a combined cost of circa £30m, are all nailed on starters.

14 of those 22 players signed under Pochettino, and of those 14, even the two poorest performers can’t be said to be unmitigated disasters (Sissoko and Llorente), the former has made a significant contribution this season and the latter has barely had enough minutes to fairly judge. Foyth and Moura can’t possible be judged yet, but even removing those 4, to have 10 players who have signed in the past 4 seasons and are currently making a significant contribution to a side doing so well shows pretty solid transfer business if you ask me.

 

[Streetspur77]

But most of those “great value” signings were made when we had a “head of recruitment” weren’t they?

As were most of the failures. It's almost as if no system is perfect but ATM we've got one which works very well

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Surely you're being less than charitable in your assessment? Sissy, Aurier, and Sanchez are all first team regulars and Moura has been here for all of 15 minutes but looks as if he will easily be a 'regular' if not starter. None of the other 4 'misses' were ever expected (at least as far as the timeline from their xfer to now) to be first team regulars. N'Jie bombed and N'Koudou looks like he may as well. Janssen was always a project but hopes were he would be an able backup and Llorente was always expected to be an able veteran backup to an ever-present striker. We were left disappointed on both fronts. But we will probably break even when dumping these players so it was more an opportunity cost.

So at the very least it is a 50% strike rate, no? Name a club (that doesn't recruit 'finished' articles) that gets better than a 50% strike rate and that's not including the fact that we have a very settled first XI that finished 2nd in the league. Recruitment was/is always going to be a problem considering the team and wage issues; no one really wants to be backup and even if they will compete we can get our first choices because of money.

That said, there does seem to be areas/instances of recruitment that are deserving of a decent amount of scrutiny like the whole Sissoko issue (and I like him) when essentially the same money would have gotten Zaha...before the preseason. Sure, lessons learned and all that but that one leaves a mark. Never really saw the Janssen logic but the Llorente rationale seemed sound and thought he won't get much more PT having Moura here would have helped his transition. The N'Jie and GKN deals were sound as well as we needed that type of player but perhaps talent ID needs twerking.

I have no problem with the DOF model. I think there should be a person in that place to look out for the long-term health of the club as the short-term incentives of a manager are inherently misaligned with them. As long as there is good communication and players are not foisted upon a manager then it should be no problem.

SIssoko was a catastrophic bit of business, and we don't know whether the ITK we've had about him very much being a Poch signing is correct. But it wouldn't surprise me. I think he stuck in Poch's mind after that Newcastle humiliation. Either way, Poch would definitely have to sign off on an investment that big (our biggest ever at the time I believe). Two summers ago there was a shitload better value and infinitely more qualified players we could have spent that money on who would have been much more use and better value.

As for the rest, it's not so much the value of those transfers - I accept Llorente, Janssen, Njie, Nkoudou were all bought as squad remit and Aurier and Moura at 25m each is reasonable in this market - again it's the manager driven logic behind some of them.

We didn't need Aurier. I think there are better options in the summer (and last summer) than Moura to spend money on. What was the point of spending more money on Llorente, why not just persevere with Janssen? The club should have persuaded Pritchard to stay rather than spent 12m on Njie.

Which is why I agree with your last paragraph, even when that manager (or especially when that manager) is Pochettino. Wonderful coach, really don't trust his recruitment. And going back to Southampton and Espanyol.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

As were most of the failures. It's almost as if no system is perfect but ATM we've got one which works very well

Just logic says to me, how can we expect a manager, who's remit is already immense to be DOF, head scout and recruitment analyst as well. By all means let him have a major say in the comings and goings, but lets do things properly.

I think it's crucial that Poch has the right environment to succeed, but I really don't see how having a head of recruitment dilutes that, and it worries me a bit that Poch sees that as a threat. I think Levy has backed Poch in every way possible, but the bottom line is, giving managers too much control over everything is rarely wise.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Lloris
Aurier Sanchez Alderweireld Davies
Sissoko Dembele
Moura Lamela Son
Llorente

Kane
Dele Eriksen
Rose Winks Wanyama Trippier
Vertonghen Dier Foyth
Vorm
​

Most extensively acquired team currently at the club v Most cheaply acquired team currently at the club. Yes, there’s players like Njie, Nkoudou, Fazio, Janssen, Stambouli to also account for, all clearly not successes, but I thought looking at what remains would be interesting. 5 of the more expensive team were £15m or under, and in total it cost less than Pogba + Lukaku + Martial. It’s also interesting that 5 of the cheaper team, with a combined cost of circa £30m, are all nailed on starters.

14 of those 22 players signed under Pochettino, and of those 14, even the two poorest performers can’t be said to be unmitigated disasters (Sissoko and Llorente), the former has made a significant contribution this season and the latter has barely had enough minutes to fairly judge. Foyth and Moura can’t possible be judged yet, but even removing those 4, to have 10 players who have signed in the past 4 seasons and are currently making a significant contribution to a side doing so well shows pretty solid transfer business if you ask me.

Honestly BBLG, I think Sissoko is as close to a disaster as we as a club have ever got. Fee and wages is something like 50m potentially, for a player for whom the ball is a hot potato and isn't trusted to play in many games that matter.

My point is, a lot of those really great value signings were as a result of us having a DOF or head of recruitment/analytics, not the "manager" has the biggest say type format. So why ditch that now.

Bottom line, I don't trust many managers to recruit smartly, logistically how can they?

I think for a club like us, recruitment is everything, and we ave made a pretty good job of it, but mostly because we've employed a pretty good strategy. I really don't understand why Poch feels threatened by having someone overseeing the strategy.

 

[heelspurs]

SIssoko was a catastrophic bit of business...more qualified players we could have spent that money on who would have been much more use and better value.

Wasn't great business but it is looking better than it did last year and at the time of transfer. Can't believe how uncomfortable he looks with the ball. Can't say I ever noticed that before he came to us. Such a deficit can only be the result of shitty coaching during his academy days. Don't see players that shit technically coming out of Lyon. But get comfortable with him because he will see out his contract.

The rest of your post is differences of approach, opinion, etc. All very reasonable actually. My post in rebuttal was only to point out that our dealings weren't as bad as you post made them seem when you delve down. But more importantly there was a sane approach to it (filling gaps, etc). All better than the 'player trading/wheeler dealer' days of shit footballers with bad attitudes.

 

[heelspurs]

Bottom line, I don't trust many managers to recruit smartly, logistically how can they?

Games too big now and too much competition for players so short answer is 'they can't'.

I would really like to know what the hierarchical structure of out scouting/recruitment dept is? Do we have scouts in all of Europes leagues? What are the numbers in all of the big 5 leagues? Are they all on the books or a per game/assignment type arrangement? Do they go to academy games? Or do they just use companies like Comolli's thing...or youtube like half of SC.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Honestly BBLG, I think Sissoko is as close to a disaster as we as a club have ever got. Fee and wages is something like 50m potentially, for a player for whom the ball is a hot potato and isn't trusted to play in many games that matter.

My point is, a lot of those really great value signings were as a result of us having a DOF or head of recruitment/analytics, not the "manager" has the biggest say type format. So why ditch that now.

Bottom line, I don't trust many managers to recruit smartly, logistically how can they?

I think for a club like us, recruitment is everything, and we ave made a pretty good job of it, but mostly because we've employed a pretty good strategy. I really don't understand why Poch feels threatened by having someone overseeing the strategy.

Regarding the second half of your post, I don’t overly have an opinion either way. On something like this where my understanding is quite limited, I’m in the ‘trust the club’ club as they’ve got this far. Sounds like a cop out but you know me better than that by now I hope.

Regarding Sissoko, there’s no doubt that he’s been a massive disappointment and that the money on him has been squandered, but he’s at least had a function of some use carved out for him, however poor he may be. Doesn’t mean I think he’s good enough, he isn’t, but when I think of expensive unmitigated disasters I think of Soldado’s 3 league goals from open play or David Bentley’s 42 league games across 5 seasons.

I’m not saying my expectations are that low, the bar is set far higher for the minimum I expect and Sissoko doesn’t even approach it, I’m just saying that at least some value is derived from Sissoko, there is at least an argument to be had about his use for us. There are players, expensive or otherwise, for whom the same cannot be said.

 

[Flashspur]

SIssoko was a catastrophic bit of business, and we don't know whether the ITK we've had about him very much being a Poch signing is correct. But it wouldn't surprise me. I think he stuck in Poch's mind after that Newcastle humiliation. Either way, Poch would definitely have to sign off on an investment that big (our biggest ever at the time I believe). Two summers ago there was a shitload better value and infinitely more qualified players we could have spent that money on who would have been much more use and better value.

As for the rest, it's not so much the value of those transfers - I accept Llorente, Janssen, Njie, Nkoudou were all bought as squad remit and Aurier and Moura at 25m each is reasonable in this market - again it's the manager driven logic behind some of them.

We didn't need Aurier. I think there are better options in the summer (and last summer) than Moura to spend money on. What was the point of spending more money on Llorente, why not just persevere with Janssen? The club should have persuaded Pritchard to stay rather than spent 12m on Njie.

Which is why I agree with your last paragraph, even when that manager (or especially when that manager) is Pochettino. Wonderful coach, really don't trust his recruitment. And going back to Southampton and Espanyol.

To say Sissoko is ‘catastrophic’ is a joke. Its a huge exaggeration. Seriously how do you come out with this stuff from time to time?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

To say Sissoko is ‘catastrophic’ is a joke. Its a huge exaggeration. Seriously how do you come out with this stuff from time to time?

Do you have any idea how much we have tied up in that deal? What £50m means to a club like us.

Then factor in what we have got in return.

It is by a country mile, the worst business we have ever done.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Do you have any idea how much we have tied up in that deal? What £50m means to a club like us.

Then factor in what we have got in return.

It is by a country mile, the worst business we have ever done.

Do YOU have any idea how the deal was structured or how much we have tied up in the deal?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Do YOU have any idea how the deal was structured or how much we have tied up in the deal?

Some idea yes. We paid 30m for him. Regardless of how it's structured, we will still have to pay Newcastle the 30m. He is reportedly on 90k per week on a 5 year deal. That's potentially 23.4m.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Some idea yes. We paid 30m for him. Regardless of how it's structured, we will still have to pay Newcastle the 30m. He is reportedly on 90k per week on a 5 year deal. That's potentially 23.4m.

Reportedly. And potentially. Stop talking like it's fact then.

Why not believe the rumour at the time of signing him that we are paying Newcastle £5m a year for every year that he is with us up to the maximum value of £30m?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Reportedly. And potentially. Stop talking like it's fact then.

Why not believe the rumour at the time of signing him that we are paying Newcastle £5m a year for every year that he is with us up to the maximum value of £30m?

Because it's silly bollocks. You really think Newcastle would sell him for 6m (if we'd only kept him for a year)? Why would they, they had Everton ready to pay 30m. At best it's 6m instalments over 5 years. But we still have to pay the full fee.

Even if reports are 10k or 20k out with his wages, it's still 18-20m.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Because it's silly bollocks. You really think Newcastle would sell him for 6m (if we'd only kept him for a year)? Why would they, they had Everton ready to pay 30m. At best it's 6m instalments over 5 years. But we still have to pay the full fee.

Even if reports are 10k or 20k out with his wages, it's still 18-20m.

Again, you have no idea of any of it. I don't think Sissoko was a great signing because I don't think he's a great player, genuinely no interest or relevance in the money spent, we aren't hard up, and there's no proof of him using up wages that we could then not spend on someone else. It's all hyperbole.

Talk about Sissoko the player, fuck how much money he may or may not have cost us.

As for worst bit of business, I'm still struggling to look past £30m for Soldado.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Again, you have no idea of any of it. I don't think Sissoko was a great signing because I don't think he's a great player, genuinely no interest or relevance in the money spent, we aren't hard up, and there's no proof of him using up wages that we could then not spend on someone else. It's all hyperbole.

Talk about Sissoko the player, fuck how much money he may or may not have cost us.

As for worst bit of business, I'm still struggling to look past £30m for Soldado.

Again, I do have an idea because the fee was openly and widely reported. And Soldado's actual basic cost was less than half that according to reports, with shitloads of add ons that never materialised because he couldn't hit a barn door.

We are not loaded. We make less profit than a small Tesco store. 50m could have covered about 8 Alli's.

Instead we bought a player who traps a ball further than Lennon can kick it.

 

[midoNdefoe]

Do you have any idea how much we have tied up in that deal? What £50m means to a club like us.

Then factor in what we have got in return.

It is by a country mile, the worst business we have ever done.

Shut the front door!
That's selective memory at its finest!!
I was a big Soldado fan, but he cost more in relevant terms (as markets have inflated so much since then) and sissoko has already contibuted more to the team.

Don't know what you hope to acheive by just relentlessly slating him?!

 

[Sir Henry]

I trust Poch. My only worry was getting transfers across the line. I thought Ronnie Rosenthal was put in place for that, so I think nothing needs to change.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Again, I do have an idea because the fee was openly and widely reported. And Soldado's actual basic cost was less than half that according to reports, with shitloads of add ons that never materialised because he couldn't hit a barn door.

We are not loaded. We make less profit than a small Tesco store. 50m could have covered about 8 Alli's.

Instead we bought a player who traps a ball further than Lennon can kick it.

You have a BC idea, borne out of what you want to believe rather than what you should. For the life of me I can't see how it's ok to believe that there were load of add ons to the Soldado transfer but we just handed Newcastle £30m without any for Sissoko.