Polish fans honor dead Varsovians

sebo_sek

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Last night, fans of the Polish club Legia Warsaw paid hommage to the 160,000 citizens of Warsaw who were murdered during the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. This number does not include the 18,000 soldiers who lost their lives in the fighting. The display took place prior to kick-off, during the minute's silence in honour of our heroes.

The city's struggle against the Germans (which was the largest underground operation during the entire war) came at the cost of savage brutality and premeditated murder, which peaked in early August, when 30,000 men, women and children were slaughtered in the district of Wola in a single day. This was the largest single day act of genocide in modern history. Rifle buts were used to save ammunition and the heaps of the dead rose as high as 6ft and as long as 30ft in the numerous squares around the district.

Despite the politically correct narrative of today, it was not the mythical nation of "Nazis", but Germans, plain and simple, who ochestrated and carried out these attrocities.

Football fans around the world are not known for cow-towing to political correctness, and we are no different.
We cherish the memory of our fallen soldiers and citizens, and refuse to keep our mouths shut about the perpetrators of these heinous acts. We are yet to hear an apology, or see a penny in war reparations.

This is how we stake our claim, for the world to see:

 

Marty

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Despite the politically correct narrative of today, it was not the mythical nation of "Nazis", but Germans, plain and simple, who ochestrated and carried out these attrocities.
While what you say is true, I would argue that today's Germans are a totally different people to the Germans of that era and writing "Germans" instead of "Nazis" only serves to rub a lot of people the wrong way. They could at least have written "Nazi Germans". But in any case it's an oversimplification. "Germans serving the Nazi regime" would be the most correct term and is obviously too long for a banner.

In any case, I feel the Warsaw uprising is often forgotten or overlooked, at least in Western Europe. Highlighting the atrocities is a good thing, for we must never forget.
 

Trix

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Nice to see a good side to Legia Warsaw fans, as opposed to huge number of mindless thugs that follow them around Europe attacking innocent people. Not to mention the countless times they have been pulled for racism(some of the worst I have seen at football.

Would it be fair to tar every Legia fan with the racist thug brush?
 
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sebo_sek

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While what you say is true, I would argue that today's Germans are a totally different people to the Germans of that era and writing "Germans" instead of "Nazis" only serves to rub a lot of people the wrong way. They could at least have written "Nazi Germans". But in any case it's an oversimplification. "Germans serving the Nazi regime" would be the most correct term and is obviously too long for a banner.

In any case, I feel the Warsaw uprising is often forgotten or overlooked, at least in Western Europe. Highlighting the atrocities is a good thing, for we must never forget.
You must remember that unlike the communists, the NSDAP were elected by the German nation who supported their military conquests. There was a miniscule opposition so the narrative that the germans were somehow enslaved simply does not stand up to scrutiny. The germans loved Hitler and they supported him. You say Germans who served the nazi regime? I say show me the germans who didn't.
 

sebo_sek

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Oh, such manipulation and no research...
Ok - the Ku Klux Klan photo was taken in Portugal, and Legia could not punish them as it is illegal for Portugese authorities to hand over personal data of people on their soil to bodies abroad (i.e to Poland). Moreover, the club issued a statement in which they say that despite selling tickets for the match against Lisbon in Warsaw and getting the personal data, the Portugese authorities also allowed Polish "fans" to buy them illegally outside the ground. I'm not excusing the behaviour, I'm saying that it is not representative of the spirit of the fans and the situational context is important. Also the picture is from 2012 - not recent.
The Kriegsmarine flag - the picture is was posted online in 2011, but is much older, so by no means a recent incident again. Also, if you point to definitive evidence that these are in fact Legia fans, I would be grateful. Hard as I tried, I couldn't make out their scarves. The last photo shows nothing.

You could post pictures of English fans fighting in the 90's and try to prove that they are representative of today's fans. Doesn't work that way.
 

riggi

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Oh, such manipulation and no research...
Ok - the Ku Klux Klan photo was taken in Portugal, and Legia could not punish them as it is illegal for Portugese authorities to hand over personal data of people on their soil to bodies abroad (i.e to Poland). Moreover, the club issued a statement in which they say that despite selling tickets for the match against Lisbon in Warsaw and getting the personal data, the Portugese authorities also allowed Polish "fans" to buy them illegally outside the ground. I'm not excusing the behaviour, I'm saying that it is not representative of the spirit of the fans and the situational context is important. Also the picture is from 2012 - not recent.
The Kriegsmarine flag - the picture is was posted online in 2011, but is much older, so by no means a recent incident again. Also, if you point to definitive evidence that these are in fact Legia fans, I would be grateful. Hard as I tried, I couldn't make out their scarves. The last photo shows nothing.

You could post pictures of English fans fighting in the 90's and try to prove that they are representative of today's fans. Doesn't work that way.
Just posting a tweet mate. Not stating it's my opinion.
 

talkshowhost86

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#13
You must remember that unlike the communists, the NSDAP were elected by the German nation who supported their military conquests. There was a miniscule opposition so the narrative that the germans were somehow enslaved simply does not stand up to scrutiny. The germans loved Hitler and they supported him. You say Germans who served the nazi regime? I say show me the germans who didn't.
All hugely simplistic but this probably isn't the place to dissect that.

Anyway, regardless of the arguments around 'Hitler's Willing Executioners', I agree with @Marty that it's daft to try and tar modern day Germany with the actions of their ancestors.

If what they wanted to 'pay homage' to those that died then that's obviously absolutely fair enough. I don't think this is a particularly forward thinking way of doing it.
 

absolute bobbins

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@absolute bobbins Are you high? Did you read what it says below? If that is funny, mate, you need professional assistance and fast.
No, I'm in full control of my facilities the irony is funny. I've got a bit of Polish in me but lets not kid ourselves, the type of fans Legia attracts would have been collaborators, standing side by side with the Nazi's.
They're the ones who unfurled a Legia Jihad banner and chanted about Auschwitz when Hapoel were in town. They use SS fonts is their banners and let's just say they have a bit of a fascination with us Jews.

legiafans_krn8ik0rfesk1u02ftr1jskgr_0.jpg.

http://canaryinthecoalmine.typepad.com/.a/6a013487f321e0970c015435d5c653970c-pi
 

kr1978

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#15
Oh, such manipulation and no research...
Ok - the Ku Klux Klan photo was taken in Portugal, and Legia could not punish them as it is illegal for Portugese authorities to hand over personal data of people on their soil to bodies abroad (i.e to Poland). Moreover, the club issued a statement in which they say that despite selling tickets for the match against Lisbon in Warsaw and getting the personal data, the Portugese authorities also allowed Polish "fans" to buy them illegally outside the ground. I'm not excusing the behaviour, I'm saying that it is not representative of the spirit of the fans and the situational context is important. Also the picture is from 2012 - not recent.
The Kriegsmarine flag - the picture is was posted online in 2011, but is much older, so by no means a recent incident again. Also, if you point to definitive evidence that these are in fact Legia fans, I would be grateful. Hard as I tried, I couldn't make out their scarves. The last photo shows nothing.

You could post pictures of English fans fighting in the 90's and try to prove that they are representative of today's fans. Doesn't work that way.
So a 5 year old picture is too old but you are calling out an entire nation, the vast majority of which wasn't even alive, for something their ancestors carried out over 70 years ago?

Things like that should never be forgotten but to tar the entire German nation now is ridiculous IMO
 

sebo_sek

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All hugely simplistic but this probably isn't the place to dissect that.

Anyway, regardless of the arguments around 'Hitler's Willing Executioners', I agree with @Marty that it's daft to try and tar modern day Germany with the actions of their ancestors.

If what they wanted to 'pay homage' to those that died then that's obviously absolutely fair enough. I don't think this is a particularly forward thinking way of doing it.
Get your point, but it's those modern day Germans who keep saying the extermination camps we Polish. Funny how that is possible seeing that Poland didn't exist as a country between Oct 1939 and May 1945. It was under total German control, was the only country in occupied Europe who refused to collaborate with the Germans in any way and lost 6 million citizens. We haven't been paid a penny in reparations and the world is being told by those same modern day Germans that we are co-responsible for the Holocaust. Their national TV station ZDF actually lost a lawsuit both there and here, and still they refuse to apologise for using the term.
So forgive me for "tarnishing" them with the facts, but those were and are facts.
 
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sebo_sek

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No, I'm in full control of my facilities the irony is funny. I've got a bit of Polish in me but lets not kid ourselves, the type of fans Legia attracts would have been collaborators, standing side by side with the Nazi's.
They're the ones who unfurled a Legia Jihad banner and chanted about Auschwitz when Hapoel were in town. They use SS fonts is their banners and let's just say they have a bit of a fascination with us Jews.

legiafans_krn8ik0rfesk1u02ftr1jskgr_0.jpg.

http://canaryinthecoalmine.typepad.com/.a/6a013487f321e0970c015435d5c653970c-pi
I also found that banner and behaviour unaccpetable. But I didn't say that they were saints. I said, that they paid homage and laid out the historical context, to which you replied with "funny".
You do realise that we lost more people in that single struggle, than you did in the entire war? How can you even think to call it funny? It's unfathomable to me. Have some bloody respect or shut up.
 

talkshowhost86

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Get your point, but it's those modern day Germans who keep saying the extermination camps we Polish. Funny how that is possible seeing that Poland didn't exist as a country between Oct 1939 and May 1945. It was under total German control, was the only country in occupied Europe who refused to collaborate with the Germans in any way and lost 6 million citizens. We haven't been paid a penny in reparations and the world is being told by those same modern day Germans that we are co-responsible for the Holocaust.
So forgive me for "tarnishing" them with the facts, but those were and are facts.
There were certainly Poles who collaborated (for a wide variety of reasons) so again I think you're being far too simplistic.

As I said...either way that is not an 'homage' to anyone but an unnecessarily provocative gesture.

It's particularly ridiculous if what @absolute bobbins is saying about the Legia fans' views towards Jews is true.
 

sebo_sek

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There were certainly Poles who collaborated (for a wide variety of reasons) so again I think you're being far too simplistic.

As I said...either way that is not an 'homage' to anyone but an unnecessarily provocative gesture.

It's particularly ridiculous if what @absolute bobbins is saying about the Legia fans' views towards Jews is true.
This is an entirely different matter and I could list dozens of cases when we were betrayed by the Jews, after being the only country in Europe who gave them unsanctioned sanctuary. So much so, that Polish almost became Izrael's state tongue. You don't know our history and take a biased over-simplistic view of that behaviour. This is not the time and place for it, but study up on what the British authorities did with the Jews in the Channel Islands (the only occupied British territory), before lecturing to us about collaboration.
Did individuals collaborate, sure, but officially the Polish Government in Exile did no such thing, we handed out thousands of death sentences to those who did, and we had no Polish Governor in place.
 

Gb160

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#20
Personally, regardless of who's right and who's wrong, i don't understand the need for people to make these sort of 'statements' at a football match, you wouldn't see it at the darts or the snooker would you?

Its a completely inappropriate platform.
 
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