Race for the Top 4 - 2017/18

[Bobbins]

again with the conspiracy theories and everyone hates us mentality. maybe people would stop making these references if we became known for winning things again, instead of still playing into the "soft underbelly" stuff every time we get a whiff of success. just a hunch....

It’s not a conspiracy theory just because you say it is. Why is it every single complaint about the media now instantly gets tagged as some raving insane conspiracy theory, rather than simply a perfectly legitimate complaint?

It’s not just us, either. I’ve taken great delight in the last few years of the media slamming Arsenal constantly for not competing at the top, as though winning FA Cups is worth nothing etc (incidentally that’s where the devaluing of the domestic cups has come from - the media, implying they’re worthless, then complaining when clubs play weakened teams in them). They talk about Arsenal not winning the league or CL in the most insulting way, implying they’re not even trying to win games or improve. They criticised them for getting beaten by City - what right has any pundit got to criticise any team which gets beaten by a club which is basically Football Manager Editor Mode in real life?

Football commentary or punditry is a putrid swill of negativity parading as insight these days. Every talking head wants to have the biggest mouth and say the most damning criticism, because they have nothing tactical or knowledgeable to actually say about anything. That’s why Gary Neville is so popular because he actually talks about the game - revealing insights which ordinary people might not see, and he’s even-handed in both his criticism and praise. Then you get idiots like Chris Sutton or Redknapp who literally talk complete shit, and spout random criticism in place of actual knowledge or insight.

Every goal is a “catalogue of errors” by the defence, never a great goal by the attackers (unless its City, because the party line is they’re the greatest of all time now). Every great tackle is the forward being too slow to shoot or dawdling on the ball.

There is very little positivity in football these days, and it runs throughout the game. It’s why I enjoy international tournaments that don’t involve England, because our media frankly ruins everything they put their grubby hands on.

It’s not a conspiracy, it is a real thing, and it effects everyone in the league, including us. The only team spared it at the moment is City, because the media worships money above all else.

 

[WiganSpur]

Nkoudou and Janssen don't get anywhere near our team and Conte was desperate to sign Llorente for Chelsea, so... Sissoko's only in the side because Wanyama, Alderweireld, Winks and Lamela are varying degrees of injured. That said, we could have played Son off Kane from the start and dropped Alli into the midfield on Sunday, so Big Mouss must be doing something right on the training pitch.

Re. Llorente, I think everyone expected him to be much better than he actually has been, regardless of whether Conte wanted him or not. So we're left with the same problem.

And you say that about Nkoudou and Janssen but they repeatedly made/make our bench every single week and Pochettino doesn't trust them. There's a dilemma of then fielding crap players or not rotating the squad enough and burning out the players.

We know if we have our first 11 available Sissoko isn't near the side but Pochettino doesn't have a great deal of choice, especially now Dembele is having his worst season for us. There are inevitably going to be times when the squad players are needed but the fact is we can sign many players who would be more useful than Sissoko. Heck, we could even recall Onomah who would probably do a better job of controlling a football.

Our bench and rotation options are repeatedly nowhere near good enough, especially without Lamela.

 

[RichieS]

Re. Llorente, I think everyone expected him to be much better than he actually has been, regardless of whether Conte wanted him or not. So we're left with the same problem.

And you say that about Nkoudou and Janssen but they repeatedly made/make our bench every single week and Pochettino doesn't trust them. There's a dilemma of then fielding crap players or not rotating the squad enough and burning out the players.

We know if we have our first 11 available Sissoko isn't near the side but Pochettino doesn't have a great deal of choice, especially now Dembele is having his worst season for us. There are inevitably going to be times when the squad players are needed but the fact is we can sign many players who would be more useful than Sissoko. Heck, we could even recall Onomah who would probably do a better job of controlling a football.

Our bench and rotation options are repeatedly nowhere near good enough, especially without Lamela.

Lloris
Trippier
Alderweireld
Sanchez
Vertonghen
Davies
Wanyama
Winks
Eriksen
Alli
Kane

Vorm
Aurier
Rose
Dier
Dembélé
Son
Llorente

is one of the best match day 18s in the league and doesn't even include the perfectly capable backup options of Foyth, Walker-Peters, Lamela and Sissoko. Perhaps in January we'll have Barkley in the mix as well.

We are clearly in the midst of an horrendous spell of injuries which has unfortunately coincided with a run of big/tough fixtures. Our bench and backup options are plenty good enough which is why we're through to the CL knockout stages and only 3 points off second with a favourable run of fixtures coming up in spite of it.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

Nobody is talking about "conspiracy theories" (other than the people on here who constantly accuse others of being conspiracy theorists everytime they see someone say something they disagree with.)

You have to literally be blind, deaf and dumb at this point to not acknowledge the fact that some people in the media are unprofessional and allow their personal bias to influence what they say on TV, radio or print.

This isn't a "Everyone is out to get spurs" conspiracy theory, this is a "Most media personalities in football on TV, radio or print allow their personal bias to affect the things they say and most of it is utter nonsense."

Unfortunatly for us, that utter nonense gets reprinted and brought out time and time again because the media are either too lazy to think of something new and original or because certain pundits are willing certain teams to fail (not just us) and they think if they say it enough, it will happen and they will get their "I told you so" moment.

This is pretty common knowledge at this point, not a conspiracy theory, it's boring to keep seeing people bang on about conspiracy theories just to try and discredit someones perspective as nonsensical.

Certain pundits hate us, just like certain pundits probably hate other clubs as well, this isn't some big revelation or conspiracy theory, it's just them allowing their bias to overrule their professionalism.

you almost have to go out of your way to be able to find enough criticism upon which to genuinely be of the belief that a large section of the media has a bias which prevents them from giving us our full credit or causes them to be more critical than we are deserving of. the prevailing view of us n the media, be it on TV, radio, online, or in print, is that we are the most entertaining team (or at least that WAS the view before Man City's current form), have the most potential, the best coach pound-for-pound, the best young English talent etc etc etc. that's just a fact. OF COURSE you're going to get contrarians, Arsenal/Chelsea fans or ex-pros and out and out trolls, just as you'll do with anything, but the PR and recognition we're getting now is better than it's ever been in my lifetime. complaining because a commentator makes reference to when we were considered a soft touch by almost every team in the league is reaching massively.

in general though, pretty much every time I log in on here, someone's complaining about us being slighted, be it by opposition managers, pundits, commentators, whoever. fuck sake, we've gotten as bad as Liverpool fans recently.

 

[Lighty64]

again with the conspiracy theories and everyone hates us mentality. maybe people would stop making these references if we became known for winning things again, instead of still playing into the "soft underbelly" stuff every time we get a whiff of success. just a hunch....

we can only go for domestic trophies if we can have a bigger squad full of big name players on big wages. if we put everything in using our strongest XI v Wet Spam, we would now be facing Arscum away, who would definitely field a stronger team, and there's no guarantee of beating them.

we have a bad injury list now, playing our strongest XI in every game would take it's toll. 1st we would burn out by the end of January, most probably be out of everything and find that we not only fail to qualify for Europe at all, but knowing Levy, Poch would be sacked and half the squad will be trying to escape.

we was in the running v Leicester the gap only widened with the WBA draw. the loss to them at our place, and the results v Arse and Wet Spam. had we been in front of them or still in their tale come the last 3 games I doubt the Chelsea match would of got so heated and lost our heads, to then lose our last 2 matches.

last season was just a case of continuous chasing, that a lack of fixtures and injuries to Chelsea players made there lead a lot easier

 

[WiganSpur]

Lloris
Trippier
Alderweireld
Sanchez
Vertonghen
Davies
Wanyama
Winks
Eriksen
Alli
Kane

Vorm
Aurier
Rose
Dier
Dembélé
Son
Llorente

is one of the best match day 18s in the league and doesn't even include the perfectly capable backup options of Foyth, Walker-Peters, Lamela and Sissoko. Perhaps in January we'll have Barkley in the mix as well.

We are clearly in the midst of an horrendous spell of injuries which has unfortunately coincided with a run of big/tough fixtures. Our bench and backup options are plenty good enough which is why we're through to the CL knockout stages and only 3 points off second with a favourable run of fixtures coming up in spite of it.

But this is the point, when we do have this horrendous spell of injuries why can't we have better players than Sissoko, Nkoudou and Llorente? Do you not agree that we can have players better than those three? And do you not agree that if we had these better players then Pochettino would trust them more, preventing burnout (and injury) of important key players?

Good squad depth is needed for three reasons. Firstly to allow the manager to rotate and keep key players fresh without too much drop in quality, secondly to have players capable of playing at a decent level when really called upon, and thirdly we need players good enough to make an impact on a game from the bench.

With two or three injuries we should still be having a decent bench. If Kane gets injured Son comes in and our bench is a joke again from an attacking perspective. It only takes 2 or 3 injuries to see the effects of poor quality backup players.

Llorente was just a bad call and we need to rectify that one as soon as possible. Numbers wise things are not too bad but we need more quality. Another forward and at least one midfielder depending on the Lamela situation.

The backup attacking options for our opponents are much more competent. Defensively we're good at the moment, but obviously things could change with Rose throwing his toys out the pram.

 

[ljinko888]

I don't think there is an anti-Spurs bias. We get our due amount of praise and quite often you see pundits especially the most popular ones like Neville and Carragher will us on to succeed because we've gone about our progress in the '"right'' way. Not through financial doping, not through shithouse tactics or an unlimited chequebook spree. We've got a management who have a long term vision and have set this into action through the coaching and development of our players from first team to youth academy and the stadium and training infrastructure. We play front-foot attacking football and spend within our means. We also have developed many England internationals and produced players who couldn't quite make it with us but who have been able to forge a PL career [Livermore, Mason, Carroll, Townsend, Adam Smith, Dean Marney, Caulker].

But there are three factors in play that makes a negative Spurs narrative sell:

1) There are very few Spurs voices in the media. You have Hoddle and Jenas who appear reasonably frequently but compared to the plethora of Liverpool and United associated pundits we just get pushed to a side. Glenn as amazing a player he is - and no one can doubt he's Spurs through and through - isn't the most *forthright* on television. Mind you we're not the only one - look at how much people shit on Arsenal. Their own ex players join in. And then there is Thierry Henry who spends most of the time sitting on the fence while the others shit on them. Ultimately the Spurs representation might change as some players who played for Spurs in recent times hang up their boots. Lampard I think is very good on tv and he adds a Chelsea voice. Maybe Crouch or someone from Harry's reign will fancy it.

2. In the written media you have a lot of journalists who are pro-Spurs to the point it makes every defeat, dropped points or whatever something for the others to stick the knife in. I don't know about you but all the last week leading up to Saturday I've seen many articles about power shift, Spurs have left Arsenal behind, Spurs dominate all the combined teams etc. From well known journalists.

The bookies had Arsenal favorite most likely due to being at home but the media favorites were us. And it's a normal reaction to point, laugh and mock when the popular opinion gets proved wrong. And I suppose when people keep hearing about how good we are and how we're the 'best team' it makes people who don't support us and watch us week in week out enjoy seeing us get beat because they think we are overrated.

3. And silverware is the last factor. I know how much we've progressed and so do fellow Spurs fans. I'm happy with our situation for the large part - only Poch's attitude to cups irks me. Once we get a trophy and it doesn't matter which one to me, it shuts up the naysayers and it gives us tangible to celebrate. Not stats and spreadsheets. The game is about glory.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

we can only go for domestic trophies if we can have a bigger squad full of big name players on big wages. if we put everything in using our strongest XI v Wet Spam, we would now be facing Arscum away, who would definitely field a stronger team, and there's no guarantee of beating them.

we have a bad injury list now, playing our strongest XI in every game would take it's toll. 1st we would burn out by the end of January, most probably be out of everything and find that we not only fail to qualify for Europe at all, but knowing Levy, Poch would be sacked and half the squad will be trying to escape.

we was in the running v Leicester the gap only widened with the WBA draw. the loss to them at our place, and the results v Arse and Wet Spam. had we been in front of them or still in their tale come the last 3 games I doubt the Chelsea match would of got so heated and lost our heads, to then lose our last 2 matches.

last season was just a case of continuous chasing, that a lack of fixtures and injuries to Chelsea players made there lead a lot easier

coulda shoulda woulda....at some point we're going to have to actually DO, and stop trying to convince ourselves and everyone else that it's just the small details and hard luck stopping us doing.

 

[Lighty64]

coulda shoulda woulda....at some point we're going to have to actually DO, and stop trying to convince ourselves and everyone else that it's just the small details and hard luck stopping us doing.

Winning the Carabao cup at a cost isn’t enough to convince imho, the 1st season in Pochettino’s reign caused us burn out and any chance of progressing further in the EL. If you’d be happy to risk CL qualification over the 1 comp that’s never been seen as important (the final wasn’t even on TV till the 90’s) and lose a bulk of our squad because they want to play on the biggest stage CL, then I’m not sure what you really want, yes great a trophy that could cost us everything.

 

[ljinko888]

Winning the Carabao cup at a cost isn’t enough to convince imho, the 1st season in Pochettino’s reign caused us burn out and any chance of progressing further in the EL. If you’d be happy to risk CL qualification over the 1 comp that’s never been seen as important (the final wasn’t even on TV till the 90’s) and lose a bulk of our squad because they want to play on the biggest stage CL, then I’m not sure what you really want, yes great a trophy that could cost us everything.

My counter-point is if you win the League Cup then no matter what happens in May we have a trophy in the cabinet.

Would I be happy if the trend of League Cup winners having a dismal end to a season occured to us?

Of course not.

But that's looking at the worst case possibility. How about this: winning the League Cup provides the team an extra push as now they know what it feels like to be winners and they want it again and again and again.

 

[Shadydan]

Sorry but winning the bloody Carabao cup will not convince anyone, all it's gonna do is to allow people to move the goalposts, yeah they won the Carabao Cup but they really need to win a top trophy, fine they won the League Cup but Kane and co are want to be winning the Prem etc...it's not going to convince our players that we're going places nor is it going to convince any prospective players that this is the team to be at.

 

[ljinko888]

Sorry but winning the bloody Carabao cup will not convince anyone, all it's gonna do is to allow people to move the goalposts, yeah they won the Carabao Cup but they really need to win a top trophy, fine they won the League Cup but Kane and co are want to be winning the Prem etc...it's not going to convince our players that we're going places nor is it going to convince any prospective players that this is the team to be at.

It doesn't have to convince anyone.

In an ideal world no one should give a shit what others say in judgement of you. But it's human nature to do so and when people keep bringing up that one line...."but they haven't won anything"....the first thing you want to do is shut them up. Let them change goalposts after because it will just reveal their true agenda but for now that line is a monkey on our back.

 

[shelfboy68]

Winning the Carabao cup at a cost isn’t enough to convince imho, the 1st season in Pochettino’s reign caused us burn out and any chance of progressing further in the EL. If you’d be happy to risk CL qualification over the 1 comp that’s never been seen as important (the final wasn’t even on TV till the 90’s) and lose a bulk of our squad because they want to play on the biggest stage CL, then I’m not sure what you really want, yes great a trophy that could cost us everything.

I don't it matters a great deal whether we are in CL or not in relation to players leaving which they will do regardless, bigger pay packet or a club than can actually win the thing.
Look at walker he has left which is fine but come May he will have a EPL winners medal and probably in the next season or two a CL winners one, what realistically are any of our players likely to win fuck all I would imagine.
We are a top four team at best most commonly top six nothing wrong with that of course but certainly a trophy would be nice as long as we could play all home games

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

Winning the Carabao cup at a cost isn’t enough to convince imho, the 1st season in Pochettino’s reign caused us burn out and any chance of progressing further in the EL. If you’d be happy to risk CL qualification over the 1 comp that’s never been seen as important (the final wasn’t even on TV till the 90’s) and lose a bulk of our squad because they want to play on the biggest stage CL, then I’m not sure what you really want, yes great a trophy that could cost us everything.

I'm sorry, but that's a straw man completely of your own creation

 

[Hazardousman]

Carragher confirming that pundits treat us differently, does anybody still want to argue about this?

It's pretty obvious from these quotes what they think of us, many positives of course but also at the same time not sure why he is plucking random figures out of thin air? Five or six seasons above Arsenal would make us bigger than them? Where do they get this shit from?

It makes zero sense, they just seem to move the goalposts all the time, all they kept doing last season was talking about a power shift, Arsenal beat us once and now they are all backtracking lol.



This is what he said :

"Tottenham just have the edge and will finish above Arsenal this season, but a power shift, no,' Carragher told Sky Sports.

'It has to be five or six seasons where you finish above your rival. I think a big foreign player would choose Arsenal.

'Until we start treating Tottenham like we treat Arsenal, the Manchester clubs and Liverpool, that's when you think they have overtaken them.'

We still think of Spurs as a young team, there is no bigger fan of Spurs than me, love the way they play, the manager, the players, but we still don't treat them the way we do the other big players.'


I would love to know what Liverpool have done in recent times to warrant people talking about them?





Also, on a side note, Eriksen had this to say about the media and what they write about us.

People talk about statements,” said Eriksen.

“But people looked at the Group beforehand with Real Madrid, Dortmund and people said we’re going to have a tough time and end up in the Europa League.

“Now we’ve shown it’s not going to be like that. We’ve shown we are better than that and that we can compete in the Champions League with some great wins and good points.

“But people need to have something to write. It used to be that we could not win at Wembley. We don’t hear that any more.”

 

[RichieS]

But this is the point, when we do have this horrendous spell of injuries why can't we have better players than Sissoko, Nkoudou and Llorente? Do you not agree that we can have players better than those three? And do you not agree that if we had these better players then Pochettino would trust them more, preventing burnout (and injury) of important key players?

Good squad depth is needed for three reasons. Firstly to allow the manager to rotate and keep key players fresh without too much drop in quality, secondly to have players capable of playing at a decent level when really called upon, and thirdly we need players good enough to make an impact on a game from the bench.

With two or three injuries we should still be having a decent bench. If Kane gets injured Son comes in and our bench is a joke again from an attacking perspective. It only takes 2 or 3 injuries to see the effects of poor quality backup players.

Llorente was just a bad call and we need to rectify that one as soon as possible. Numbers wise things are not too bad but we need more quality. Another forward and at least one midfielder depending on the Lamela situation.

The backup attacking options for our opponents are much more competent. Defensively we're good at the moment, but obviously things could change with Rose throwing his toys out the pram.

You seem to be saying that if we have 2 or 3 attacking players injured then we look thin on the ground - I would say that it's bloody obvious that we would! We choose 3 attackers from Eriksen, Alli, Son, Lamela, Kane, Llorente which is two Premier League proven players for each position/role and rather than loan or buy in a player to cover Lamela's injury, Poch decided to go with Sissoko as a regular member of that group as well (presumably to be replaced in that role by Barkley). Seven players for three positions (with highly rated academy players available in an absolute emergency) ought to be plenty - for all of Lamela, Alli and Kane to be injured at the same time is not something any team would stockpile extra players to account for because it's a highly unlikely occurrence.

It seems ultimately where we disagree is over Llorente and Sissoko - I think Llorente is a quality player who will score goals for us and that Sissoko clearly has Poch's trust and will actually continue to be a regular member of the first 18 even once everyone's fit, but may find himself displaced by Barkley in January and look to leave in the summer. Actually, that might show that maintaining a squad of 20/21 starting quality senior players is near on impossible, even when one of them (Sissoko) is allegedly earning £80k p/w.

N'Koudou is irrelevant as we don't (and have never under Poch) played in a way that utilises a player like him - keeping N'Jie would've made more sense imo as he was more of a striker.

 

[aussiespursguy]

I think our team is full of overhyped players ... they became 2nd and 3rd last season not because they were better but because clubs like utd/arsenal/city were not into their full rhythm... United got one player who has got same loser mentality like spurs and that is luke shaw ... and not only utd wants to ship that player to spurs but also he is not playing for utd anymore.. If we swap rose with luke shaw that will solidify our position as a loser club no matter what the transfer fee is ...

Your a happy little vegemite aren't you!
Loser mentality? No i don't think so. But even amongst our OWN fans we have to win something to be classed differently. Do you think Kane has a loser mentality? Lloris? Toby? Eriksen? Jan?
No they don't.
And how much have both Utd and City spent over the transfer period? Not in their rhythm my arse. Both managers are cheque book managers to a large degree. I honestly believe put our best team out against either and we will be their equal at least.

 

[Anurag Jo]

Carragher confirming that pundits treat us differently, does anybody still want to argue about this?

It's pretty obvious from these quotes what they think of us, many positives of course but also at the same time not sure why he is plucking random figures out of thin air? Five or six seasons above Arsenal would make us bigger than them? Where do they get this shit from?

It makes zero sense, they just seem to move the goalposts all the time, all they kept doing last season was talking about a power shift, Arsenal beat us once and now they are all backtracking lol.



This is what he said :

"Tottenham just have the edge and will finish above Arsenal this season, but a power shift, no,' Carragher told Sky Sports.

'It has to be five or six seasons where you finish above your rival. I think a big foreign player would choose Arsenal.

'Until we start treating Tottenham like we treat Arsenal, the Manchester clubs and Liverpool, that's when you think they have overtaken them.'

We still think of Spurs as a young team, there is no bigger fan of Spurs than me, love the way they play, the manager, the players, but we still don't treat them the way we do the other big players.'


I would love to know what Liverpool have done in recent times to warrant people talking about them?




Also, on a side note, Eriksen had this to say about the media and what they write about us.

People talk about statements,” said Eriksen.

“But people looked at the Group beforehand with Real Madrid, Dortmund and people said we’re going to have a tough time and end up in the Europa League.

“Now we’ve shown it’s not going to be like that. We’ve shown we are better than that and that we can compete in the Champions League with some great wins and good points.

“But people need to have something to write. It used to be that we could not win at Wembley. We don’t hear that any more.”

Nothing wrong with what Carragher said. We do have to finish above Arsenal for a considerable period of time for a power shift to happen.

It's also true that we won't be treated like Arsenal, Manchester clubs because quite simply we had nowhere near success with what they had.

Liverpool will be always talked about whether you like it or not. They have a massive fan following all over the world- the media simply cannot afford to ignore them.

 

[rocklink]

Here is your trophy poch

 

[Lighty64]

I'm sorry, but that's a straw man completely of your own creation

No it’s my understanding that we don’t have the depth of squad to compete on 4 fronts at the moment, and my understanding that the next 5-10 years it’s vital to fill the new stadium for at least 22 games a season, which won’t happen playing in the EL.

This squad will slowly get depleted because of our wage structure, to risk it being ripped apart without guarantee of actually winning the dame Carabao Cup. Once you get to the semifinals all teams will field their strongest teams, but the other big teams that are still left in it, both Mancs and Chelsea have much more depth to be able to cope with the extra fixtures, we don’t. Just look at our injuries this season, and the players playing carrying knocks.