Rating vs Liverpool

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 23 10.8%
  • Rose

    Votes: 17 8.0%
  • Vertonghen

    Votes: 5 2.4%
  • Kaboul

    Votes: 1 0.5%
  • Dier

    Votes: 10 4.7%
  • Capoue

    Votes: 17 8.0%
  • Bentaleb

    Votes: 10 4.7%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 46 21.7%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 4 1.9%
  • Chadli

    Votes: 32 15.1%
  • Adebayor

    Votes: 23 10.8%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 7 3.3%
  • Townsend

    Votes: 6 2.8%
  • Davies

    Votes: 13 6.1%

  • Total voters
    212

Bus-Conductor

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I don't know. Lamela behind the front two and Eriksen into the central two trying to get space and more touches on the ball. If Liverpool was:

Balotelli Sturridge
Sterling
Allen - Henderson
Gerrard
We could go:

Adebayor Kane
Lamela
Eriksen - Capoue
Strombouli
You might be right about our full backs though.

I don't think Eriksen is anywhere near disciplined enough to play that role in this division. Bentaleb could, but then where would you put Eriksen ?

Also Kane and Adebayor are too similar. You'd want one of them and Soldado surely ? Different set of skills.


Doesn't really work for me as our full backs don't provide enough going forward or without drastically hampering themselves defensively.
 

mpickard2087

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But Capoue could have got over there if he had sensed the danger early and at least put pressure on. He didn't sense it, then ran the wrong way and from there he had no chance of getting back. He made really suspect defensive decisions on all of the goals and for other chances, as well as some half-hearted attempts to make a challenge.

He is a good passer from deep though and I think he'll have a good season for him as long as he isn't shoe-horned into a defensive role. Maybe this Stambouli guy can come in and be the defensive linchpin that will allow Capoue more freedom to express himself and get the ball moving forward. I have a feeling Stambouli is more of a Schneiderlin type who is going to be fairly similar in style and substance to Capoue.
I'd have to watch the goal again, at the time I just burst into laughter watching the comedy of errors so didn't really pay attention to the replays...

I agree with the gist of the post. I said myself previously in this thread I would have liked Sandro playing in this game and indeed in any of the tougher games we will face this season. I do wish at times we set up a bit more with defence in mind rather than trying to go out and give these teams a game... When has it worked recently? If he does end up being sold then I'd be a bit worried and as others have said, we could have problems with the space between defence and midfield unless Poch can get his ideas across and players adapt really quickly.
 

InOffMeLeftShin

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I don't think Eriksen is anywhere near disciplined enough to play that role in this division. Bentaleb could, but then where would you put Eriksen ?
He's not ideally suited, but nor is Bentaleb. I'd rather try with Eriksen in there and teach him to press but be able to use the ball better in more advanced positions than to try to each Bentaleb the movements and positioning required to get involved close to the opposition area. Eriksen is far from Modric, but similar things were said about Modric's lack of ability to play centrally in the Premiership.

Also Kane and Adebayor are too similar. You'd want one of them and Soldado surely ? Different set of skills.
No, not really. I'd play Kane and Adebayor since they both have movement that will take them wide, deep and manipulate the defence. We have to find ways to stretch the opposition defence to create gaps or mismatches otherwise no formation we use will be particularly effective. Soldado in there as part of the two without wide players is going to be easier for the defence to monitor

Doesn't really work for me as our full backs don't provide enough going forward or without drastically hampering themselves defensively.
Yeh I'd agree with this at the moment.
 

stemark44

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I have to say that Liverpool look a really good outfit and their new signings are starting to gel already.......Moreno looks an awesome player.
Looking at the side that played yesterday really shows just how many changes Rodgers has made to their first team since he became manager.
Think we need to rebuild our team from scratch and hopefully Poch can provide the owners with enough success/potential to back him in future windows.
 

Blake Griffin

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rodgers has spent over £100m net since taking over which is something that seems to get overlooked, he's been backed big. poch won't get that.
 
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rodgers has spent over £100m net since taking over which is something that seems to get overlooked, he's been backed big. poch won't get that.
In Pochettino's first transfer window he has so far been bought (and this is with no big money sale like Bale/ Modric/ Berbatov/ Carrick to help). 6 players. That's one goalkeeper (fresh from a World Cup and a very similar back up to our first choice), one right back (and, if the WC is anything to go by, a superb young right back), one left back (who has received rave reviews for the past two seasons), two centre backs (one the captain of a top side in a top league, the other a young player who is a regular at England youth levels and seems to have everything) and, subject to medical depending on which sources you believe, a defensive midfielder (who is strong, aggressive, intelligent, skillful and seemingly very highly rated). He can't complain really (nor do I think he would).
 

Blake Griffin

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In Pochettino's first transfer window he has so far been bought (and this is with no big money sale like Bale/ Modric/ Berbatov/ Carrick to help). 6 players. That's one goalkeeper (fresh from a World Cup and a very similar back up to our first choice), one right back (and, if the WC is anything to go by, a superb young right back), one left back (who has received rave reviews for the past two seasons), two centre backs (one the captain of a top side in a top league, the other a young player who is a regular at England youth levels and seems to have everything) and, subject to medical depending on which sources you believe, a defensive midfielder (who is strong, aggressive, intelligent, skillful and seemingly very highly rated). He can't complain really (nor do I think he would).
how many of them improve the first team? all of it was funded by sales. do you think we can compete with the top clubs by relying on sales to fund our latest signings? do you think it's possible to consistently improve by doing that? surely over so many deals you'll end up regressing to the mean.
 

stemark44

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how many of them improve the first team? all of it was funded by sales. do you think we can compete with the top clubs by relying on sales to fund our latest signings? do you think it's possible to consistently improve by doing that? surely over so many deals you'll end up regressing to the mean.
Wow,Its way too early to say how many will improve the first team,we haven't even seen Vorm,Fazio or Strambouli yet but so far Dier has looked promising and Davies is settling in.
We also have a massive squad of players to sell from.
 

Blake Griffin

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Wow,Its way too early to say how many will improve the first team,we haven't even seen Vorm,Fazio or Strambouli yet but so far Dier has looked promising and Davies is settling in.
none of them improve us enough to compete. we sell good players, we buy good players. this makes it look as though we're doing something but the net result is negligible. are we signing this stambouli guy because we think he can improve the first team or are we signing him because he looks like a good deal? i'm not as high on schneiderlin as others but this just looks like another example of our manager wanting a player and levy getting him a cheaper version.
 

stemark44

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none of them improve us enough to compete. we sell good players, we buy good players. this makes it look as though we're doing something but the net result is negligible. are we signing this stambouli guy because we think he can improve the first team or are we signing him because he looks like a good deal? i'm not as high on schneiderlin as others but this just looks like another example of our manager wanting a player and levy getting him a cheaper version.
Really?
To me it looks like even after we signed Strambouli,we still wanted Schneiderlin but Southampton won't budge and its a bit too expensive for us.
It appears that Poch doesn't really rate Sandro and Capoue.
I really don't know anything about the Strambouli guy but I would certainly rate Schneiderlin way above Capoue and Sandro.
 

Bus-Conductor

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none of them improve us enough to compete. we sell good players, we buy good players. this makes it look as though we're doing something but the net result is negligible. are we signing this stambouli guy because we think he can improve the first team or are we signing him because he looks like a good deal? i'm not as high on schneiderlin as others but this just looks like another example of our manager wanting a player and levy getting him a cheaper version.

But isn't this just what the clever teams with small budgets are doing. Dortmund, Ajax, Porto, Benfica, Sevilla, etc etc. They aren't all out spending 25m each on the names on the top of lists every window.

I don't agree with all our business. But I agree with the logic of spending a couple of mill on a player who isn't too far from the 27m one.
 

jezz

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I keep seeing this said and people complaining, but as I said yesterday in my opinion half of the reason for this is that when he takes someone on he hasn't got the bit of explosiveness, nor strength, to get away from someone and so most of the time he is half looking back over his shoulder to fend someone off or to wait to win a freekick rather than accelerate away into the space. Sometimes he does win the freekick, other times the opposition player will come round the side and muscle him out of it. I think he brings some of the problems on himself, if you cant dribble/take-on successfully, then stop doing it.
70% of fouls committed by Liverpool were against Lamela, he was singled out as the stats show.
So it's ok to say he should do this and that, but if your constantly fouled its a bit hard to do.
 

sim0n

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Wow,Its way too early to say how many will improve the first team,we haven't even seen Vorm,Fazio or Strambouli yet but so far Dier has looked promising and Davies is settling in.
We also have a massive squad of players to sell from.
Spurs are not far off, they signed Davies and he needs to start. Never heard of Strambouli before yesterday, but if that's who Poch wants, then so be it. Clearly the strategy from liverpool was to hack Lamela at every opportunity, so he needs to overcome that,.... and that shameful dive from allen really killed the game...
 
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Good article here.

http://eplindex.com/58460/tottenham-hotspur-03-liverpool-postmatch-tactical-analysis.html?

...just how much Liverpool’s success was based around their work without the ball was evident in their statistics with it. The midfield three of Henderson, Allen and Gerrard – who are all capable of completing 100 passes in a dominant possession performance – only completed 98 passes between them. All three however were excellent. The attacking three of Sterling, Balotelli and Sturridge had pass completion rates of only 70%, 50% and 83% respectively. They too were ruthlessly efficient and had 13 shots between them.

This is where it is massively important to account for the execution of transitions in games. It is difficult to quantify and is therefore frequently lost in statistical analysis. If all you had to go by were the statistics above, you could easily be led to believe that Liverpool had a poor game and were not good with the ball, however that simply was not the case. Instead of dominating possession, they allowed Spurs to have the ball in safe areas and held their shape immaculately. Upon winning the ball they were explosive, broke into dangerous spaces behind the defence, reacted quicker, were far more direct and took greater risks (hence the ‘poor’ statistics)...
 

Bus-Conductor

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Good article here.

http://eplindex.com/58460/tottenham-hotspur-03-liverpool-postmatch-tactical-analysis.html?

...just how much Liverpool’s success was based around their work without the ball was evident in their statistics with it. The midfield three of Henderson, Allen and Gerrard – who are all capable of completing 100 passes in a dominant possession performance – only completed 98 passes between them. All three however were excellent. The attacking three of Sterling, Balotelli and Sturridge had pass completion rates of only 70%, 50% and 83% respectively. They too were ruthlessly efficient and had 13 shots between them.

This is where it is massively important to account for the execution of transitions in games. It is difficult to quantify and is therefore frequently lost in statistical analysis. If all you had to go by were the statistics above, you could easily be led to believe that Liverpool had a poor game and were not good with the ball, however that simply was not the case. Instead of dominating possession, they allowed Spurs to have the ball in safe areas and held their shape immaculately. Upon winning the ball they were explosive, broke into dangerous spaces behind the defence, reacted quicker, were far more direct and took greater risks (hence the ‘poor’ statistics)...
I think there's some very good stuff in there. Including:

The only problem for them in this fixture, was that they came up against a side who are two years ahead of them in their development, and if Liverpool can tighten up defensively they will prove very difficult for anyone to stop this season.

The same goes for Liverpool. They have the correct blend of midfielders, all suited to different systems, tactics, game situations, and Rodgers can select appropriately.


Stuff that some mentioned in their ratings posts.

I think it's time people accepted that Rodgers is a very good coach and a pretty decent tactician. I'm not sure he intended to allow us to have as much ball as we did, but he'd clearly thought about how best to tackle Pochettino previously, and applied the same formula.

I still feel the difference ultimately was in the slickness - or the transitional moments as they call them in that article - of their machine compared to ours. And I've said on numerous occasions now when others were criticising his purchases that he's assembled well, pieces that compliment each other and his system.

I said some similar things in my ratings post:

their players were slicker in the moments that mattered. Their attackers were slicker and their defenders were slicker.

Liverpool aren't at the embryonic stage we are. They are now into their third season of Rodgers, and their attacking players are a talented bunch who have now been playing together for a while and Balotelli has form in the league. They have also bought some very good defenders (Moreno looks the bollocks to me). Even fucking Lovren looked decent today, unlike his last two run outs against us. But most of all they just look like what they are, a team two years more evolved than we are. They worked much more cohesively off the ball, and were better organised defensively as a group. That is hardly surprising.

But I also stand by my claim that, ultimately, that wasn't a terrible performance by us, baring in mind we are into our 3rd game under the new regime paying against such a well oiled machine. If chances get taken and individual clusterfucks are different the two teams could almost have cancelled each other out.

We must get slicker in important areas. I assumed that was a big reason for hiring Pochettino, but it won't happen over night or even in weeks.

My big reservation is that Pochettino doesn't seem, on all the evidence we have so far, to have too much variation to his tactical thinking, unlike Rodgers who seems to be prepared to tweak formations and approach to suit tyne opposition.

Time will tell.
 
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Mr Pink

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Me neither, I'm exceptionally disappointed though in our performance, having played so well against QPR, yes QPR were gash, but the basics were non existent yesterday from the off, we were just so sloppy and slow in possession. Lost count of the times we brought the ball out from the back and found one of them instead of us. Lloris had a shocker with his distribution but in front of him our team were impersonating dead ants.

I'm hoping we just caught on the hop and we'll see a lot more of the promising stuff we saw against QPR and to a lesser degree Limassol.
Totally agree Bear.

We made it too easy for Liverpool. Had we applied the same tempo, urgency and hunger that we saw against QPR I think the game and scoreline would of been a hell of a lot closer. In fact had we played with the same confidence Liverpool were there to be beaten.

As the old saying goes - you got to win the battle first etc. We didn't.

That's what disappointed me the most - we didn't do ourselves justice.

But like you say, only one game. Just hoping it was down to us freezing a bit early on in the game and never quite recovering from it.

I'm hoping to see us play with much better intensity against Sunderland next week.
 

Spurs_Bear

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Totally agree Bear.

We made it too easy for Liverpool. Had we applied the same tempo, urgency and hunger that we saw against QPR I think the game and scoreline would of been a hell of a lot closer. In fact had we played with the same confidence Liverpool were there to be beaten.

As the old saying goes - you got to win the battle first etc. We didn't.

That's what disappointed me the most - we didn't do ourselves justice.

But like you say, only one game. Just hoping it was down to us freezing a bit early on in the game and never quite recovering from it.

I'm hoping to see us play with much better intensity against Sunderland next week.
There were so many mistakes as well though Mr P, I genuinely couldn't believe what I was watching some of the time, just an inability to make a simple pass, despite what the pass completion rate tells you. All of our subs had such a negative affect on the game as well, I cant get my head around anyone who thinks it was a half decent stab from us, can you?

I was very down on Sunday, and not really enamored by the end of the transfer window, and even more pissed off there's no football due to a wanky international weekend. I think Sunderland are pony so I'm hoping we go back into previous mode like you said.
 

Mr Pink

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There were so many mistakes as well though Mr P, I genuinely couldn't believe what I was watching some of the time, just an inability to make a simple pass, despite what the pass completion rate tells you. All of our subs had such a negative affect on the game as well, I cant get my head around anyone who thinks it was a half decent stab from us, can you?

I was very down on Sunday, and not really enamored by the end of the transfer window, and even more pissed off there's no football due to a wanky international weekend. I think Sunderland are pony so I'm hoping we go back into previous mode like you said.
Feel a bit flat myself after Sunday and yesterday as well, but I think its mostly down to the fact it was Liverpool.

I really can't stand them but I acknowledge their team is well ahead in terms of development.

I thought our passing was poor. I'm not interested in the stats really, I can tell from what I saw. We moved the ball way too slowly.

The possession was a bit sterile, and a far cry from some of sharper stuff we've saw under Poch so far.

It reminded me of a typical home performance under AVB actually - probably why BC is defending it (I Jest BC lol)

Seriously though, I didn't think it was a good performance. I thought we took far too many touches on the ball and moved it way too slowly. That made it easier for Liverpool to get close to us and that hindered us even more.

I'd sum it up by saying....lacking a cutting edge in possession and all round very little intensity to our game.

But its very early days and its only one game, so hopefully be able to forget about it and move on quickly.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Totally agree Bear.

We made it too easy for Liverpool. Had we applied the same tempo, urgency and hunger that we saw against QPR I think the game and scoreline would of been a hell of a lot closer. In fact had we played with the same confidence Liverpool were there to be beaten.

As the old saying goes - you got to win the battle first etc. We didn't.

That's what disappointed me the most - we didn't do ourselves justice.

But like you say, only one game. Just hoping it was down to us freezing a bit early on in the game and never quite recovering from it.

I'm hoping to see us play with much better intensity against Sunderland next week.

But that is the point I made last week that everyone took exception to, it's piss easy to look like a slick outfit when the opposition are not only of poor quality and tactically atrocious, but don't even exert themselves.

Just like last week you were too quick to declare something a wonderful performance that wasn't, this week you are too quick to declare a disaster or complete failure.

The truth is neither. We weren't brilliant against QPR, just good, they did the rest. They didn't lay a boot on us until we got to their 18 yard box, so of course we looked slicker, we were under no pressure. We could have won that game 10-0 if we'd actually pressed them properly or transitioned quicker or been less careless with the ball second half.

It's like the score is everything with some of you guys. If Adebayor or Chadli had buried great chances and we hadn't gifted Liverpool two really soft individual goals second half and the game had petered into a 1-1 draw that followed the same pattern of play with us dominating possession and territory with them looking menacing on the break - which is how most of the game was - you'd be saying "not bad for 3rd game in considering the quality and experience of Liverpool compared to us".

The problems of Sunday are endemic problems we have had since the beginning of last year. Everyone blamed AVB for "stunted robotic play" then last week everyone said "Eureka it's cured". It's bullshit. Those problems are about the players we have and their mentalities as much as it is about the coaching. They won't be cured of all the deficiencies in 2 games, and some of them may never. Adebayor can be unplayable, but as saw under AVB and now Pochettino, he can be a fart in a fucking trance as well. Chadli and Lamela have just played their first consecutive games in the EPL I believe (certainly in the same team). Capoue is starting all over again after a good false start this time last year and Bentaleb is a 19yo kid learning on the job.

No coach on earth is going to make those circumstances look like a well oiled, 3rd year drilled group of players. No coach is going to raise their footballing IQ significantly in 2 games.

The revolution didn't arrive last week and it didn't vanish this week either. We are in a major transition and it will take a long while, and even then we still won't have the same quality of personnel as others, who also have great coaches. So realism may still be required.
 
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