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Rating vs Real Madrid (a)

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 258 53.3%
  • Toby

    Votes: 9 1.9%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 53 11.0%
  • Verts

    Votes: 29 6.0%
  • Aurier

    Votes: 7 1.4%
  • Dier

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Winks

    Votes: 61 12.6%
  • Sissoko

    Votes: 55 11.4%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Llorente

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • Rose

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Son

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 5 1.0%

  • Total voters
    484

kitchen

Well-Known Member
Nov 24, 2006
2,275
3,587
Read some pages. "Average", "meh" and "ok" for Llorente. What match did you watch? Fifa 18? Oozes class. Brilliant player on top of his game. Did exactly what was asked from him and more.

And Vertonghen... World class.

Lloris is old news. Arguably best in the world.

Lloris is arguably the best shot stopper in the world but there are a couple of goalkeepers that are above him simply because his distribution (kicking in particular) is still weak.

It worked well on Tuesday because Lloris could hit the long ball with more freedom and more chance of us keeping the ball from it due to having both Kane and Llorente up top.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
This is so important and what 99% of this forum ignore when discussing team selections. It extends as far as why talented youth players don't get thrown in when they seemingly are tearing it up for the development sides.

I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with this bit. If Winks can play that well against RM now, he was sure as shit psychologically ready to make more than three league starts last season.

If Onomah and KWP can perform to their best of their ability in U20 World Cup finals, they were psychologically ready to play more Spurs minutes last year than they did.

And there is absolutely no psychological or holistic logic to not even giving Onomah games in pre season as a CM not a winger. We could really do with him as an option now.

I love Poch, he’s the best coach by far that we’ve had in my time watching spurs, but he doesn’t get everything right, and it’s not all about taking a holistic approach, some of it is just misjudgement and risk aversion.
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with this bit. If Winks can play that well against RM now, he was sure as shit psychologically ready to make more than three league starts last season.

If Onomah and KWP can perform to their best of their ability in U20 World Cup finals, they were psychologically ready to play more Spurs minutes last year than they did.

And there is absolutely no psychological or holistic logic to not even giving Onomah games in pre season as a CM not a winger. We could really do with him as an option now.

I love Poch, he’s the best coach by far that we’ve had in my time watching spurs, but he doesn’t get everything right, and it’s not all about taking a holistic approach, some of it is just misjudgement and risk aversion.

Yes he has handled Winks very carefully
but remember he was out for several weeks last season
with an injury that was slow to clear.
He is 21 and has ten years at least at the top level.
Dembele's and Wanyama's injuries have accelerated his rise.

The other Harry was treated carefully too
and that worked out well.
Lets see how Josh Onomah responds to his loan spell
but playing him out of position is just silly.

As long as our own are in his thoughts
I don't object to a bit of careful handling.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Yes he has handled Winks very carefully
but remember he was out for several weeks last season
with an injury that was slow to clear.
He is 21 and has ten years at least at the top level.
Dembele's and Wanyama's injuries have accelerated his rise.

The other Harry was treated carefully too
and that worked out well.
Lets see how Josh Onomah responds to his loan spell
but playing him out of position is just silly.

As long as our own are in his thoughts
I don't object to a bit of careful handling.


Winks got injured at Burnley at the back end of last season, there was a big chunk of last season he could and should have started more IMO. You said it yourself, injuries have forced Poch's hand to a degree, not pragmatism and care. And it was the same with Kane, if Soldado could score and Adebayor hadn't been JuJu'd by his mum, we'd possibly never have seen Kane, it would have been a year or two later or it would have been in another shirt. This isn't all careful planning, it's just serendipity.

He had several games post season and pre-season to play Onomah in CM, that's just poor management of resources.

Like I said, I love the bloke, he is one of the best around and we are very lucky to have him, but I still don't agree with everything decision he makes.
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2008
15,980
48,499
I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with this bit. If Winks can play that well against RM now, he was sure as shit psychologically ready to make more than three league starts last season.

If Onomah and KWP can perform to their best of their ability in U20 World Cup finals, they were psychologically ready to play more Spurs minutes last year than they did.

And there is absolutely no psychological or holistic logic to not even giving Onomah games in pre season as a CM not a winger. We could really do with him as an option now.

I love Poch, he’s the best coach by far that we’ve had in my time watching spurs, but he doesn’t get everything right, and it’s not all about taking a holistic approach, some of it is just misjudgement and risk aversion.

But surely this is because Poch has deemed him ready NOW, not last season?

And this is the point, unless we speak to the players directly or see them in training it's hard to judge if they have confidence to show their ability in high pressure matches. Yes, no doubt, Onomah is talented but it's one thing playing with your youth team mates(both domestically and internationally) and being the standout player in an environment you're comfortable in, but it's another thing translating that confidence to the first team, when one mistake could lead to a damaging defeat.

Poch is closer to the players than you or I. He has a greater insight into their mindstate than we do. As much as you might think you can judge a players ability and confidence from watching a few youth team matches the reality is this is only a small part of what Poch is using to make his calls on.
 
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Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Winks got injured at Burnley at the back end of last season, there was a big chunk of last season he could and should have started more IMO. You said it yourself, injuries have forced Poch's hand to a degree, not pragmatism and care. And it was the same with Kane, if Soldado could score and Adebayor hadn't been JuJu'd by his mum, we'd possibly never have seen Kane, it would have been a year or two later or it would have been in another shirt. This isn't all careful planning, it's just serendipity.

He had several games post season and pre-season to play Onomah in CM, that's just poor management of resources.

Like I said, I love the bloke, he is one of the best around and we are very lucky to have him, but I still don't agree with everything decision he makes.

This is just a carbon copy of when you championed Adam Smith and Dean Parrett (whose name you could never fucking spell) in the same way. It's not a poor management of resources in the slightest, it's just your over inflated opinion more than anything else.

Move on.
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
4,652
5,738
Tactically it worked out very well, but circumstances forced our hand.
Without the injuries, it would have been Dier and Dembele in midfield, and while they would have clamped down on RM's near total dominance in midfield, they would have given away more than a few free kicks.
This could have proved costly.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
This is just a carbon copy of when you championed Adam Smith and Dean Parrett (whose name you could never fucking spell) in the same way. It's not a poor management of resources in the slightest, it's just your over inflated opinion more than anything else.

Move on.

Adam Smith, the regular premier league rb who had the same amount of assists in the PL last season as Walker the 50m RB ?

Yes, bear, there are some similarities, in as much as I still believe we could have at least used Smith as back up instead of signing both Walker and Naughton whilst still having a first team RB.

The devil is, as ever, in the detail. I have never said all these kids should be regular starters and usurp regular first team players, but we have wasted the resource that they are by instead of giving them some kind of chance or allowing them to fulfil some kind of squad remit, we have preferred to buy mediocre players like Chiriches, Stambouli or players with only a handful more games on their clock like Nkoudou and Njie.

And I still believe that we could have used players like Pritchard more, we should have given Onomah chance to play as a CM, we should have played Winks more often last year. And though I wasn't the one championing Kane, others were and they were also right, we should ave used him sooner.

I don't want most academy players to play, only the ones I think merit some minutes or chances to prove themselves. And even then I don't say they are guaranteed to become regular starters, but they could at least fulfil a squad remit that is currently filled by terrible 30m footballers like Sissoko, or ho hum average ones like Njie or Nkoudou.
 

Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Dec 3, 2004
15,506
5,032
Winks got injured at Burnley at the back end of last season, there was a big chunk of last season he could and should have started more IMO. You said it yourself, injuries have forced Poch's hand to a degree, not pragmatism and care. And it was the same with Kane, if Soldado could score and Adebayor hadn't been JuJu'd by his mum, we'd possibly never have seen Kane, it would have been a year or two later or it would have been in another shirt. This isn't all careful planning, it's just serendipity.

He had several games post season and pre-season to play Onomah in CM, that's just poor management of resources.

Like I said, I love the bloke, he is one of the best around and we are very lucky to have him, but I still don't agree with everything decision he makes.

But isn't that how all young players get their chance? Managers don't just drop well performing strikers mid-form and say 'let's give x a chance'. They get their chance when injury/poor form arises and they either take it or they don't. Not to mention all the other things that happen behind the scenes in the training and conditioning of these players; and Kane's very own exemplary attitude and mental fortitude which appears to have increased with time (partly whilst on loan at unglamorous clubs, which may explain Onomah's move).
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
But isn't that how all young players get their chance? Managers don't just drop well performing strikers mid-form and say 'let's give x a chance'. They get their chance when injury/poor form arises and they either take it or they don't. Not to mention all the other things that happen behind the scenes in the training and conditioning of these players

Yeah sure, but just let’s not pretend it’s something else like holistic psychology, great judgement or a grand plan.
 

Japhet

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2010
19,232
57,391
Winks got injured at Burnley at the back end of last season, there was a big chunk of last season he could and should have started more IMO. You said it yourself, injuries have forced Poch's hand to a degree, not pragmatism and care. And it was the same with Kane, if Soldado could score and Adebayor hadn't been JuJu'd by his mum, we'd possibly never have seen Kane, it would have been a year or two later or it would have been in another shirt. This isn't all careful planning, it's just serendipity.

He had several games post season and pre-season to play Onomah in CM, that's just poor management of resources.

Like I said, I love the bloke, he is one of the best around and we are very lucky to have him, but I still don't agree with everything decision he makes.


From what I read at the time, Onomah wasn't doing enough in training. We know how much importance Poch puts on training well and hard enough. I'd imagine that Winks has worked harder and has subsequently got the nod.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
But surely this is because Poch has deemed him ready NOW, not last season?

And this is the point, unless we speak to the players directly or see them in training it's hard to judge if they have confidence to show their ability in high pressure matches. Yes, no doubt, Onomah is talented but it's one thing playing with your youth team mates(both domestically and internationally) and being the standout player in an environment you're comfortable in, but it's another thing translating that confidence to the first team, when one mistake could lead to a damaging defeat.

Poch is closer to the players than you or I. He has a greater insight into their mindstate than we do. As much as you might think you can judge a players ability and confidence from watching a few youth team matches the reality is this is only a small part of what Poch is using to make his calls on.

Isn’t that what I’m arguing, that Poch deeming him ready now isn’t always Poch being right?

I won’t get into the semantics of Onomah any further it will just get tedious.

But the whole “we don’t see them in training” thing is a bit moot because none of us do so we don’t know whether they are training brilliantly or badly (whatever that means) what we do see is these kids playing over a number of years in a number of pressure situations, including international tournaments etc. the same as we see senior players.

We also know that we have so far yet to see a kid introduced who’s had a breakdown or even let us down and been any more catastrophic than any senior player has on occasion.

Can we stop pretending that there is this potential catastrophe waiting round the corner of every academy debut or early appearance that is likely to be any worse than the risk of that posed by other players debuts and early (and in many cases later) appearances.

The bottom line is we will never know what remit the very best of these kids (which is only a very tiny proportion we are talking about here) until they are actually given a chance.

For example, if we’d succeeded in signing Diop or the Barca fella, would Winks have played even twice this year?
 
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Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Dec 3, 2004
15,506
5,032
Yeah sure, but just let’s not pretend it’s something else like holistic psychology, great judgement or a grand plan.

Who's said it has? But there clearly has been an element of good management as both have come in and done exceptionally well, one with numerous loan spells and the other with being gradually bedded into the team. They could both have started earlier but it’s a never ending hypothetical argument to say they should have been starting earlier.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Who's said it has? But there clearly has been an element of good management as both have come in and done exceptionally well, one with numerous loan spells and the other with being gradually bedded into the team. They could both have started earlier but it’s a never ending hypothetical argument to say they should have been starting earlier.

Maybe you missed where this conversation started with JS suggesting we should consider Poch’s psychological and holistic approach when thinking about why some academy players don’t get played. To which I responded by saying it isn’t always the case, is all.
 
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JUSTINSIGNAL

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2008
15,980
48,499
Isn’t that what I’m arguing, that Poch deeming him ready now isn’t always Poch being right?

I won’t get into the semantics of Onomah any further it will just get tedious.

But the whole “we don’t see them in training” thing is a bit moot because none of us do so we don’t know whether they are training brilliantly or badly (whatever that means) what we do see is these kids playing over a number of years in a number of pressure situations, including international tournaments etc. the same as we see senior players.

We also know that we have so far yet to see a kid introduced who’s had a breakdown or even let us down and been any more catastrophic than any senior player has on occasion.

Can we stop pretending that there is this potential catastrophe waiting round the corner of every academy debut or early appearance that is likely to be any worse than the risk of that posed by other players debuts and early (and in many cases later) appearances.

The bottom line is we will never know what remit the very best of these kids (which is only a very tiny proportion we are talking about here) until they are actually given a chance.

For example, if we’d succeeded in signing Diop or the Barca fella, would Winks have played even twice this year?

But that is my point, the reason most of the youth players don't let us down when they play is because there must be a point where Poch deems they have the mental fortitude to translate the ability they have shown in training and in youth games and tournaments, to our first team. The pressure situations you speak of are far easier to deal with when you're with players you've been around for most of your academy career. It takes a whole different level of mental character to take that form into the first team of a team you've spent your whole life supporting and wanting to play for. With the pressure of not wanting to let down your family, coaches, manager, millions of fans worldwide but at the same time gain the respect of your senior team mates.

Like you I don't necessarily agree that we should always buy from the outside in order to supplement squad places. But, again, if Poch has weighed up what we have in the development squad and he doesn't believe they are physically or mentally developed enough to be viable cover, then we have to trust that. As I said, watching these kids in youth team will be only one in a number of factors that will inform Poch's decsion on who is ready or not.

Poch might not always be right but I trust a man who see's 100% of the picture than you or I that only see about 10-15%%

With regards to the Diop signing - I think we were looking for cover for DM to push Dier CB full time but when Sanchez became available we scrapped that(according to JJ) and made Dier DM full time instead. So I don't think it would have affected Winks game time. I'm not sure we were ever really in for Silva.
 

Coyboy

The Double of 1961 is still The Double
Dec 3, 2004
15,506
5,032
Maybe you missed where this conversation started with JS suggesting we should consider Poch’s psychological and holistic approach when thinking about why some academy players don’t get played. To which I responded by saying it isn’t the case, is all.

I did, but I certainly agree with his post above. You've done this before when you curse Pochettino for not playing your favourites at the time you wanted him to, without seeing those players as much, knowing them or having any experience or qualifications in the top echelons of professional football.
 

NickHSpurs

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2004
13,626
11,875
I got back from Madrid last night and missing it already, the whole trip was amazing. Spurs fans going out dealing baby wipes was incredible :ROFLMAO:

Spent pretty much all of Tuesday in the square drinking and singing and despite the drizzly weather the atmosphere was class. Then the lads went out and did us proud, proper European away day, loved every minute!

Well done to all the yids out there, didn't see any trouble at all and we were quite the tourist attraction (y)
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
I got back from Madrid last night and missing it already, the whole trip was amazing. Spurs fans going out dealing baby wipes was incredible :ROFLMAO:

Spent pretty much all of Tuesday in the square drinking and singing and despite the drizzly weather the atmosphere was class. Then the lads went out and did us proud, proper European away day, loved every minute!

Well done to all the yids out there, didn't see any trouble at all and we were quite the tourist attraction (y)

On this topic
Just a quick thank you from Liz at the Irish Rover
to all those that popped into eat or drink
Lovely boys she said and she hadn't seen
or heard of any trouble..

You're always welcome she says.
I was there briefly before and after and it was all very civilized.
But then we are aren't we.
 
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