Ratings v Forest

Discussion in 'Match Ratings Archive' started by Strikeb4ck, Sep 24, 2014.

MOTM?

  1. Vorm

    0.9%
  2. Naughton

    20.1%
  3. Fazio

    1.3%
  4. Vertonghen

    2.6%
  5. Davies

    0.4%
  6. Stambouli

    4.3%
  7. Bentaleb

    1.7%
  8. Townsend

    14.5%
  9. Paulinho

    1.3%
  10. Lennon

    0.9%
  11. Soldado

    0.4%
  12. Mason

    49.1%
  13. Kane

    0.4%
  14. Lamela

    2.1%
  1. spurs9

    spurs9 Well-Known Member

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    Other than set pieces, Eriksen's best qualities, IMO, are his crossing, cutting in and shooting and late run's into the box from the sides, so I think trying Eriksen from either flank is a good idea.

    I would like to see the below variations tried and they could be swapped between in each game(if necessary).

    Soldado
    Eriksen Lamela Chadli

    Chadli
    Lamela Soldado Eriksen

    Chadli
    Eriksen Soldado Lamela

    Soldado
    Chadli Lamela Eriksen

    Soldado
    Lamela Chadli Eriksen

    Soldado
    Eriksen Chadli Lamela​
     
  2. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    The AM's in particular need to be changimg position during the game to be effective - so the likes of Lamela, Eriksen etc should be seen left right and centre. So most of your line ups are repetition, not an alternative, sorry !
     
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  3. stemark44

    stemark44 Well-Known Member

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    You could have also mentioned the very intelligent run from Kane that made it easy for Erik to slot the ball into his path and of course the beautiful finish.
     
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  4. Spurs_Bear

    Spurs_Bear Well-Known Member

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    So many good posts in this thread and then this abomination. So close.
     
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  5. Gilzeanking

    Gilzeanking Well-Known Member

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    This is a massive issue for me . Modern defences run on anticipation .Our player on the ball in midfield turns to the left say. The whole defence readjusts that way quickly . To beat them we need surprise and disguised passing is one of many ways to do this .
    I definitely feel we don't see it enough at Spurs . I'm sure BC is right re the Lamela pass for Kane . Kane had extra space
    created by the disguise ...on top of the perfect weight on the pass , it was Lamela at his best .
    Another way to unlock defences is the feint to shoot . Many defences will anticipate and hurl themselves in front of the expected shot leaving them prostrate and helpless if the shot was not taken . Fucking with an oppo defence's anticipation is a great way to make chances . I'd love to see more of that at Spurs .
     
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  6. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    What Chelsea players like Drogba? Or players who had the audacity to wear a hat and then had to apologise to the whole squad before being banished?

    And the Bale point is silly but redundant anyway as we are talking more of last season.

    You do seem to have a problem accepting that AVB, like Ramos, was way less than the sum of his hype.
     
  7. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I can, and have repeatedly stated that AVB made mistakes (at both Spurs and Chelsea) but what you don't seem to accept is that not everything that was bad was down to AVB, which has been evidenced since I believe.

    One of us is being more blinkered or disingenuous than the other.
     
  8. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    But as usual you're getting off track. Look at my original post, I am not refusing to accept that not everything that was bad was down to AVB- that's not the point at all. My point was that AVB's record at Porto is irrelevant as he couldn't cut it in England- evidenced by his time at Spurs and Chelsea.

    You always do this, say something ridiculous and then try to take the argument elsewhere. That is very blinkered and disingenuous.

    I never said AVB was all bad. Read what people say and respond in kind.
     
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  9. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    No, I made the point that AVB's mindset was perfectly fine in previous employment, and that maybe the mindset of players (I was referring to Spurs, but Chelsea too) wasn't ideal (intelligent, cognitive, receptive, adaptive etc etc)

    My point, to another poster was that maybe it was time we (mainly he) stopped blaming AVB for everything that wasn't great.

    You then made the ridiculous comparison with Christian Gross and trotted out the usual Adebayor Hat and Bale was Bale tripe, which without realising it, reinforces my point. If Bale could continue being Bale then how did AVB make everyone else stop being who they are ?

    And Bale didn't just continue to be Bale. He improved. Accept it, it's a fact. Even tougher to accept is that there is a distinct and unpalatable possibility that AVB helped that improvement.
     
  10. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    a
    Well his Porto team isn't a valid barometer as the Portuguese league doesn't compare with the English league, just as the Swiss doesn't hence the comparison which is far from ridiculous.

    I am not sure of any poster who is blaming AVB for "everything". I certainly am not and never did. Can you show me where someone has said as much? Or are you doing the usual thing of taking a point to the fictionally absurd length to then counter any criticism, however valid, of AVB? I think EB just referred to him once fairly innocuously.

    Bale is the best player we have had in a generation, arguably 30 years. Again I shouldn't have to repeat this but I never said AVB inhibited Bale's development and maybe he did contribute to it in some way but for me he was pretty much irrelevant to it. It would have happened with him, Redknapp or whoever. If you are going to credit him for his rise then ok, but then Redknapp should also be credited for the improvement of Bale and Modric for that matter. And how does the Adebayor example reinforce your point?

    But the Bale example is beside the point because we aren't going to have a team of Bales. AVB's remit was to construct a coherent team. Having Bale was a luxury. He couldn't do that when Bale left and struggled to get us playing that well when he was here. That doesn't mean he's an awful coach and did nothing right but it means exactly what I have said before- he couldn't live up to his hype, promise or just the requirements of his job. It's why what he did in Portugal, what his mind-set was and how his Porto team performed is completely irrelevant.
     
  11. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Saying he didn't get us playing well is massively over simplistic and very subjective and is a very complex argument. Many of us were perfectly happy with the the way we were playing generally or trying to play but accepted that yes he made mistakes but there were many other factors - in both seasons - that made things difficult for AVB - and some of those factors continued to be issues and are continuing to be issues.

    It's got fuck all to do with believing hype it's got to do with realism, perception and expectation. I guess ?

    You seem to share the perception - judging by your response to my initial post - that AVB's mindset was poor, I think his mindset is part of what got the worst team we'd had for several years it's highest points tally in EPL history and kept a side in massive transition, with a plethora of new young inexperienced players hovering close to the CL places in his second season. But then, it's all about perception and expectation isn't it ?
     
  12. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    Well not really, the aim of football and the wish of most of us including you by the sounds of your original post is to score lots of goals and play attractive football. That never happened on a regular basis. I don't think many people were "perfectly happy" with the way we were playing. Many were bored and frustrated by it. We weren't terrible in most games other than the obvious ones but against teams like Hull, Swansea and Palace we weren't great either.

    We could sit here and dissect his reign ad nauseam if we haven't already. For the nth time, a chief reason why we got so many points in 12/13 was Bale. It wasn't AVB managing Bale and putting him in a certain role to which Redknapp had been blind; it was because of blinders against West Ham, West Brom, Sunderland and Southampton, three of which were very late on. Without Bale, I don't think we would have got those 8 points.

    But be that as it may, you responded to EB saying there was an "AVB mind-set" to how we played Wednesday. That's not saying the "AVB ghost still haunts us" or "it's all AVB's fault" or "AVB was awful for us" or "AVB set us back years", it's for me saying that we were stuck in possession football for possession's sake- keeping the ball without moving it forwards with any guile, precision, flair to the end of creating chances or scoring. And I don't think EB was saying that this is a residual effect of AVB just that it reminded him of last year.

    That is how we were last season. It may be subjective to the extent of that football bores some, appeases others or makes the few or solitary fan "perfectly happy" but it is how we played and it resonated on Wednesday. It certainly wasn't anywhere near how Porto were supposed to have played under AVB which gave him that hype across Europe and got him the Chelsea and probably Spurs jobs. So bringing it up was pointless and added nothing.
     
  13. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    The aim of football is to win. If I wanted to be as tritely over simplistic as you I could just point out that AVB achieved this better than most Spurs managers in history and stop there.


    In as much as chief reason any side achieves anything is because of it's best players yes. But in your previous post even you admitted AVB may have contributed to Bale's achievements, now you are saying he didn't ?

    Redknapp played Bale as an auxiliary striker against Norwich away in the winter, where he was outstanding and scored. He then reverted tom playing him as a left winger in a 4 midfield until Chelsea away in late spring (because "THEY" told him to). He then reverted back to the left wing two weeks later for us to be thumped by Chelsea at Wembley.

    AVB did "manage" and "put" him in a "certain role" that maximised his achievements, over the course of a season. Redknapp, despite trying this and it showing to be effective, didn't.

    And what you and others don't seem to accept is that at the very worst, if you believe AVB had no effect on Bale's input, why do you then make the assumption that AVB had a negative effect on everyone else's ?


    Yes, and I made the very valid point that the common denominator in these performances is not the manager but the same group of players.

    It was a simple point. Perhaps you didn't grasp that, or maybe you disagree with that. I'm not sure, because your message gets a bit lost in your tedious rancourousness in anything of mine you reply to.
     
  14. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    Yes it is but we want to do so with panache and with scoring lots of goals. If you didn't, you wouldn't have mentioned Porto scoring so freely under AVB. You were the one being over simplistic in implying that because AVB had success in Portugal any criticism of his time here is misguided.

    He may have contributed to Bale succeeding, he may not. It's not something you can empirically measure. But the point is in those four games, Bale singlehandedly picked up the ball and won the game with worldies. That isn't common, something that can be coached nor something that he couldn't have done under Redknapp. Maybe AVB did get hold of Bale and increase his output but I am not convinced. My point wasn't to dissect every single performance and role of Bale's but to point out that we won so many games that season because of Bale's innate talent and not because of AVB.

    As I said earlier, Bale is a bit of red herring and a rare luxury for any team. It's afterwards that we are talking about. Let's assume that AVB did unearth the magnificent talent of Gareth Bale. It's one thing to do that, it's another to build a high scoring, free flowing, coherent successful team with 20 other talented but not supremely gifted players. He may have done in Portugal in a lesser league. He didn't do that in England. We got good results with and to a lesser extent without Bale but in no way did we resemble Porto. Can you not accept that?

    And it's not the same group of players is it? Vorm, Fazio, Davies, Bentaleb, Stambouli never played under AVB. It was an observation that the same way of playing seemed to be rearing its head again and it resembled AVB's latter period here. Nothing more nothing less and nothing that warrants you shrilly rising to his defence to regurgitate part of his CV.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  15. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I used the example of Porto to make the point that AVB's mindset didn't hinder Porto's attacking prowess. Not to prove that I want a certain type of football.

    Yet you seem to have empirically measured the rest of the team and concluded AVB had a negative effect ? Amazing how that gage only seems to work one way ?


    He couldn't and didn't do it under Redknapp because he wasn't being played in the same place on the pitch with the same role. For all bar a couple of games he was played as an orthodox left winger - because they told him that's where he plays. And it took Redknapp months (and injury to Ekotto) to stop shitting himself about Bale's curse before he'd even give him a game.



    He's not a red herring or a luxury. His regular role became different under AVB. If you/others are going to spout AVB mindset bullshit negating other players, you can't then exclude Bale as a red herring. It's hypocrisy.


    Vorm, Fazio, Davies & Stambouli haven't started a single EPL game yet ?
     
  16. Coyboy

    Coyboy The Double of 1961 is still The Double

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    You're getting confused and dragging the argument off topic as usual. There's no point in talking about Bale even if you don't accept that he was a luxury because we are talking about last season.

    I have made no such 'empirical ' judgement on AVB; just simple observation and deduction. His Spurs team or his Chelsea team played a bland ultimately unsuccessful brand of football.

    If you don't appreciate the attacking football AVB engendered at Porto why cite it? Even if you don't it's been explained to you the difference between achieving that here and there.

    Those players didn't play under AVB so there is no common denominator or symmetry. And that's ignoring Chelsea and the players he ostracised there.
     
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  17. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    And I've explained to you why your observation and judgement is subjective.

    And I didn't say I didn't appreciate the attacking football AVB presided over at Porto, I explained to you the reason a cited it.

    And that was my very simple initial point that you dragged off topic. That players at the clubs AVB has managed, have been a major influence on how those teams have played, and within the framework and structure a coach can imbue, this is invariably a truism.


    I will explain this again for you. This is the very simple point that I made in the post you took so much umbrage to:

    I do not think everything that was wrong, especially with our creativity, was down to AVB. I think this has and is evidenced by some of what we have and are still seeing. It is about the collective wit and craft of the players in this current group.

    If you agree, fine. If you disagree fine. But lets keep it to this point from here on in because I really can't be arsed to play this attritional bullshit game with you.
     
  18. stemark44

    stemark44 Well-Known Member

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    Yet you gave Sherwood dog's abuse when he was in charge ......even though he was trying to manage these players and he had no input in buying them.
    If AVB had little say in the players we bought when he was in charge.... then thats his fault.
     
  19. jezz

    jezz Well-Known Member

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    Err wasn't sherwood on the committee that bought these player's?
     
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  20. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    No. I criticised Sherwood for some of the decisions he made. Like I criticised AVB for some of the decisions he made.

    But I have continually criticised the players we have had throughout for their lack of wit and craft.
     

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