Ratings v WBA

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Agree pretty much with @Bus-Conductor and his summary, although wouldn't even be as kind to Capoue as he was, he was also garbage, and as the lesser of two evils I would have taken him off instead of Dembele.

The only positive I can bring from the game is that Poch was genuinely angry with the players, there wasn't any bullshit, I hope...HOPE, this means we will at least see some sort of reaction from all concerned, but at least he wasn't hiding behind any long winded jargon to excuse our poor performance. For what it's worth, I've never been a big fan of changing 11 players for games, especially when the regime is so new. The players can't be tired, it's not like they've run themselves into the ground recently. I want a strong team against Forest, get a win then pick another strong team for the Emirates.

And wear a suit Poch, start looking the business, there's a good lad.
I think so too. People go on about Dembele being slow on the ball but at the same time rave about Capoue. Dont get that. I like Capoue, but he is quite one paced and does dawdle on the ball too and technically Dembele's a better footballer for me. The Liverpool game he was slower with and without the ball than i've ever seen Dembele and again on the weekend I don't think there was much to choose between them.
 
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The fourth thing i want to talk about is the make-up of the side and in particular Baldini and Levy's role in it. Levy wants the DoF and personally I agree with him, but as far as I'm concerned he keeps choosing pups for the role. Commoli was all talk and no trousers, his Billy Beane methods weren't backed by any footballing insight. Baldini doesn't seem to have grasped that we play a different game in this country to what they have in France, or Italy, or Romania. In those countries the game's played at walking pace, players dwell on the ball and take their time to pick the pass, and it's frankly slow and boring. It seems with some of our recruits Baldini's picked players who'd do well in those leagues, but who may be unsuited to our one, even with the likes of Chadli, who comes from a quick league, within that league he's a languorous type of player.

Ignoring the other points you raise, some I agree with more than others, but this one I think is a bit ill thought out in concept.

Arnesen, Comolli and Baldini - our three DOF's so far - are always going to have to shop in these foreign markets, particularly the French and Dutch. This is where the ratio of best value/technically quality ratio lies, particularly France where there is a good level of technical coaching at development level and a larger quantity available than leagues like Holland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Croatia etc.

France isn't a "slow" league per se (you may remember the tough game we had against Lyon for example), and you get less time on the ball than many EPL games, because pressing is generally an endemic skill taught much better at development level. Same goes generally for Italy.

What is called fast (and we've all been guilty of calling the EPL this) in the EPL actually isn't, it really is more referring to the speed or method at which English teams like to get the ball from back to front - i.e. as quick as fucking possible before the crowd start booing you for being boring - But the pace at which the ball is passed/moved is pretty similar. And the fitness levels in Europe often seem to be superior, despite supposedly being slower leagues.

It's a ridiculous thing to criticise anyone from shopping in those markets as they represent much better value than other markets. The product (i.e. the player) are invariably of equal or superior quality to other markets and invariably cheaper priced.

And like any market, some will prove better investments (football/financially) than others. When you are buying unfinished/compromise players, this will always be an inherent risk.
 

mpickard2087

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Just seen that Adebayor completed just 6 passes in 90 minutes.

Good fucking lord.
Whilst not removing him of responsibility for this, we have seen before that Adebayor is unsuited to leading the line and staying up top as this is what happens. He isn't involved for whatever reason. He works best when he can float around, to me he is someone who needs to play his way into a game.

The individual himself needs a kick up the arse, but I think its partly a tactical thing and tbh this will be an ongoing problem whoever we pick if we keep sticking with one central striker. We have to hope we gel quickly because we are playing too much in front of the opposition and we need better runs and to get people up in support.
 

Mr Pink

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Whilst not removing him of responsibility for this, we have seen before that Adebayor is unsuited to leading the line and staying up top as this is what happens. He isn't involved for whatever reason. He works best when he can float around, to me he is someone who needs to play his way into a game.

The individual himself needs a kick up the arse, but I think its partly a tactical thing and tbh this will be an ongoing problem whoever we pick if we keep sticking with one central striker. We have to hope we gel quickly because we are playing too much in front of the opposition and we need better runs and to get people up in support.
6 passes whatever way you slice it is horrendous though, no matter our system and style. Its not just criticism of Adebayor either, its criticism of him and our attacking play overall.

Away at City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool I wouldn't really pay any attention to that stat but at home to West Brom - that's just a staggering stat IMO.
 

stemark44

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Sorry even with the set of players we have there are no excuses for the way we played. Do you really think that the players we have aren't capable of moving the ball on in less than 4 seconds? Do you think that none of them are capable of moving after making pass (because way too many times to count the player passing then just stood around). Do you think they aren't capable of any type of movement to stretch a defence in any kind of way?

They are capable of way better than they played at the weekend and there is no reason that with decent coaching and tactical nouse that they can actually perform to a really high level.
This League is not simply about how much talent a player has,you need balls to play in this league,you have to be strong minded and strong physically to excel here.
Every player needs to be prepared to go out there and to win every individual battle on the pitch.
Far too many of our players either are not capable or are not willing to do that.
 

sloth

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Just seen that Adebayor completed just 6 passes in 90 minutes.

Good fucking lord.
I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
 

only1waddle

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I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
I think this is it, he's basically a free spirit and plays his best football off the leash, it didn't fit with AvB and it wont fit a disciplined pressing game under poch.
 

Mr Pink

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I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
Could definitely be some truth in that. He does like to float about the pitch and get involved here and there.

For the good of the system Poch probably is demanding a more disciplined performance. Could be another teething problem among many at the moment.

I'm just accepting this is going to be quite rough and erratic for a while and its imperative that we all realign our expectations a bit. I know quite a few have anyway.

If we're patient we'll be rewarded long term with Poch, confident about that.
 
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I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
I think Ade is just straight-up inconsistent to be fair. lol
 

theShiznit

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I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
He plays football like basketball, just strolling in front of the defence doing these little pop off give and goes (knowing he'll get the ball right back) likes to be the centre of everything, but he slows the game down far too much for me and his negatives far outweigh any positives IMO.
 

Jamturk

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I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
WBA had a quite high line, so we needed to put a few balls over the top.

For me he still drifted too much and should have been looking for the ball in behind a bit more.

Also we didn't have any runners from deeper, this lack of intelligence really galled me. We were just playing in front of them.

We should have got the full backs forward more (probably nervous at the thought of leaving Laurel & Hardy on their own)

We needed to get wide and over the top.
 
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6 passes whatever way you slice it is horrendous though, no matter our system and style. Its not just criticism of Adebayor either, its criticism of him and our attacking play overall.

Away at City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Liverpool I wouldn't really pay any attention to that stat but at home to West Brom - that's just a staggering stat IMO.
I just had a thought, it's a theory and, without supporting evidence but for some vague circumstantial stuff, probably bollocks, but anyway... Ade only really seems able to play his way, and doesn't seem to take instruction well, his way is to wander and try and get involved all over the pitch, so I wonder if Poch has told him to stay up front and whether pique or simple lack of enthusiasm, and\or inability to play this way explains his shoddy performance? Certainly only six passes is far from usual for him.
I think this is it, he's basically a free spirit and plays his best football off the leash, it didn't fit with AvB and it wont fit a disciplined pressing game under poch.

I don't think there is any tactical excuse for what we saw Sunday, it was the most lethargic, disinterested and incompetent performance I've seen from Adebayor ever.

Even if he was told to play a more disciplined way, he still needs to move and show for the ball and press and work within that remit. He just didn't. His movement was abysmal, it was as if he was hiding, which is uncharacteristic even under AVB.

And when the ball did, on rare occasions, find him his touch was atrocious. And that chance he failed to get a head on was farcical. If you watch it again it's like he genuinely tried not to head it.
 

eddiebailey

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It seems to me that there is a bit of a problem with Poch's system if it nullifies the qualities of Adebayor and Eriksen, our two outstanding players from the second part of last season.
 
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I don't think there is any tactical excuse for what we saw Sunday, it was the most lethargic, disinterested and incompetent performance I've seen from Adebayor ever.

Even if he was told to play a more disciplined way, he still needs to move and show for the ball and press and work within that remit. He just didn't. His movement was abysmal, it was as if he was hiding, which is uncharacteristic even under AVB.

And when the ball did, on rare occasions, find him his touch was atrocious. And that chance he failed to get a head on was farcical. If you watch it again it's like he genuinely tried not to head it.
He just doesn't seem to ever reach anything. Be it that cross, the great through ball from Eriksen, another very good pass from Dembele I think or the through ball from Lamela at 2-1 v Sunderland, he just gets nowhere near chances that a top class striker, regardless of pace, should be burying. Even if he fluffed the lot of them, I'd wager that the slower Soldado would have reached ever single one of them.
 

Mr Pink

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I don't think there is any tactical excuse for what we saw Sunday, it was the most lethargic, disinterested and incompetent performance I've seen from Adebayor ever.

Even if he was told to play a more disciplined way, he still needs to move and show for the ball and press and work within that remit. He just didn't. His movement was abysmal, it was as if he was hiding, which is uncharacteristic even under AVB.

And when the ball did, on rare occasions, find him his touch was atrocious. And that chance he failed to get a head on was farcical. If you watch it again it's like he genuinely tried not to head it.
The missed header I watched in disbelief, it really was such a straightforward chance - on a plate as they say. Its not even like he was being held or was jostling fiercely to get himself free to make the contact. It was inexplicable and unfortunately significant. I knew we were destined to drop points quite early on in truth but that missed chance cemented it.

Had he just lent forward and made contact it was a certain goal. Then you have a totally different game. Atmosphere lifts, team gets some confidence and most importantly West Brom have to commit more forward which leaves more space for us to get a second.

Had he scored that simple header we most likely would of gone to win, even if it would of been undeserved somewhat.

We deserved what we go though in truth.
 

sloth

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It seems to me that there is a bit of a problem with Poch's system if it nullifies the qualities of Adebayor and Eriksen, our two outstanding players from the second part of last season.
I think it's too early say it nullifies them. Systems coaches like Poch and Rogers are always going to take a while to get their ideas drilled into their players and while the team is learning it's going to on occasion appear disjointed. In terms of Eriksen, I don't think his qualities are nullified anyway, with Ade there maybe a motivational issue, but he's not good enough to have the team built around him, if the problem is he's demotivated or unable to play the way Poch wants (and that's a massive if) I think giving him licence to play the way he wants to play might improve his play and so provide some instant improvement to the overall team's play, but if the coach feels that it is not the way to get to the top, then he has to stick to his guns. In terms of Poch's philosophy I'm much more convinced that it offers a route to the top, then a freer, up and at them style favoured by Sherwood and Harry.
 
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It seems to me that there is a bit of a problem with Poch's system if it nullifies the qualities of Adebayor and Eriksen, our two outstanding players from the second part of last season.

I think the problem is with Adebayor's ability to imbue tactical instruction and direction, not necessarily with the system.

Under Redknapp and Sherwood this was less of an issue because there was very little tactical instruction to absorb.


Eriksen is still a young player (22), and has good days and bad days under all three of our managers and systems.
 

stemark44

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Adebayor has to drift into places where defenders won't follow him in order to get the ball,he simply can't play up top with a big powerful CB on his ass constantly because he hasn't the brains,skill or movement to deal with that.
Thats simply useless for a one striker system because when any of the other players are looking to play a ball into the box..........Adebayor is nowhere to be seen.
 

eddiebailey

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I think the problem is with Adebayor's ability to imbue tactical instruction and direction, not necessarily with the system.

Under Redknapp and Sherwood this was less of an issue because there was very little tactical instruction to absorb.


Eriksen is still a young player (22), and has good days and bad days under all three of our managers and systems.
Perhaps there was less tactical instruction, but that might have been because they built their tactics around the instincts of the players rather than trying to get the players to adapt in order comply with a managerial blueprint. Harry used to talk about seeing how players fitted together; whereas AVB, for instance, would stick with a plan even when palpably lacking the players to make it work. I had hoped Poch might take more of a middle road, but it seems to me that both Eriksen and Adebayor have gone backwards since he took over; Christian really has not had any good games under Poch (and I am struggling to think of any under AVB come to that - tactical instruction really does not seem to be his thing, at least not at this stage in his development). Nor is there is much sign of anyone else raising their game to compensate. Only Rose has really looked better this season, but then he was hung out to dry by the free role that Sherwood gave Eriksen.
 
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