Ratings vs Arsenal

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 85 16.6%
  • Rose

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • Verts

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Kaboul

    Votes: 385 75.2%
  • Naughton

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Capoue

    Votes: 6 1.2%
  • Mason

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Chadli

    Votes: 5 1.0%
  • Adebayor

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Lennon

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Bentaleb

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Dier

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    512

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
Basically, the gist of what BC is saying is that whatever the plan, the front four as a unit (with Adebayor and to a lesser extent Eriksen particularly culpable) didn't enact the defensive side of it very well. The rest of the team were much better, but the overall performance would have been greatly improved had the likes of ade given a shit, and actually mustered more than an amble when they had the ball and he was the nearest man, and if he wasn't forever jogging into an area where he couldn't do much good, seemingly to ensure he wouldn't have to be in the area he would have done some good, I suspect because that would have involved more graft than he was prepared to offer.

On a side-note, my personal suspicion with Ade is that he doesn't agree with the way Poch has asked him to play and so he's doing his selfish and cowardly work to rule type protest.
Ah right, I could of sworn that he labelled it a piss poor performance, must of missed that caveat, coincidentally enough, that the rest of the team were much better and it was just the guys up top that didn't enact the defensive side well enough.

Still, that's progress if he's conceding that much.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
14,175
You, BG and Pinko keep obfuscating the simple point I am making. Could we have had a plan to be compact sit a bit deeper and counter attack ? Of course, that's what the plan was.

What I don't believe is that certain players implemented that plan well at all. I don't believe Pochettino would be happy with the contribution of Adebayor, Eriksen or Chadli in general.

I would bet Pochettino (the man who's all about the press) would have wanted much more work rate from those three, he'd have wanted them to match Lamela's ability to work hard but still have the energy to create our goal I would imagine.

No one expects our level to be Dortmundeque. But the work rate of those three was generally woeful, well belwow a canny conserving of energy.
Yeah but that's all guesswork. Considering we saw such a change to the usual effort, I would say the balance favours a very different approach to what we had seen.

Bus-Conductor said:
And what they did on the 4 occasions we did break in 90 minutes was mostly shite. So if they were conserving energy for the "big moments" they got that pretty wrong too.
Well yes, as I have alluded to about 6 times.
 

sloth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2005
Messages
8,995
Ah right, I could of sworn that he labelled it a piss poor performance, must of missed that caveat, coincidentally enough, that the rest of the team were much better and it was just the guys up top that didn't enact the defensive side well enough.

Still, that's progress if he's conceding that much.
Yes, well, hyperbole aside, I think that was the gist. Over all I think it was a solid and reassuring performance and the team adapted well. I do think there were some shit performances too mind you
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
Yes, well, hyperbole aside, I think that was the gist. Over all I think it was a solid and reassuring performance and the team adapted well. I do think there were some shit performances too mind you
Agree for sure, but my precise take was that BC said it was a piss poor performance in terms of the implementation of the game plan - period.

I know you're being diplomatic Sloth but there's quite a big jump in terms of how you've described his summation and what he initially said - which is what sparked this protracted analysis/debate and why its still ongoing.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
Ah right, I could of sworn that he labelled it a piss poor performance, must of missed that caveat, coincidentally enough, that the rest of the team were much better and it was just the guys up top that didn't enact the defensive side well enough.

Still, that's progress if he's conceding that much.

No you were right, I do think it was pretty much a piss poor performance in general. Within that, as I said originally some were OK but generally no better than OK. Some were generally very poor and one or two were fucking abysmal.

I understand the concept of the "plan" I just don't think you ever give 3 or 4 players the day off to "conserve" themselves for that "special" occasion.

Do not buy this one bit. I think Adebayor and Eriksen need a kick up their arses. And this was yet another game when that was true. They are both talented players, but neither are providing enough creatively right now to get away with doing as little as they did off the ball. Chadli I think was willing but once he realised those two weren't willing to back up his pressing he pretty much gave up to.

I would add that I think we were also lucky that Wenger made some piss poor selections and tactically applied those selections badly. If you look at both teams on Saturday, I really don't think there starting front six was much better than ours in terms of quality. On pure ability I wouldn't swap any of Lamela/OC, Eriksen/Wilshere, Adebayor/Welbeck, Capoue/Arteta for example. Where as if he'd picked Sanchez and Cazorla or even Rosicky, I'd have been a lot more worried about the quality gap.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
No you were right, I do think it was pretty much a piss poor performance in general. Within that, as I said originally some were OK but generally no better than OK. Some were generally very poor and one or two were fucking abysmal.

I understand the concept of the "plan" I just don't think you ever give 3 or 4 players the day off to "conserve" themselves for that "special" occasion.

Do not buy this one bit. I think Adebayor and Eriksen need a kick up their arses. And this was yet another game when that was true. They are both talented players, but neither are providing enough creatively right now to get away with doing as little as they did off the ball. Chadli I think was willing but once he realised those two weren't willing to back up his pressing he pretty much gave up to.

I would add that I think we were also lucky that Wenger made some piss poor selections and tactically applied those selections badly. If you look at both teams on Saturday, I really don't think there starting front six was much better than ours in terms of quality. On pure ability I wouldn't swap any of Lamela/OC, Eriksen/Wilshere, Adebayor/Welbeck, Capoue/Arteta for example. Where as if he'd picked Sanchez and Cazorla or even Rosicky, I'd have been a lot more worried about the quality gap.
I know you understand the plan, but surely to God you're going to see less pressing if you're, by in large, sitting a bit deeper with a compact shape.

Arsenal are good enough to handle a decent pressing team at home. They're exceptionally adept at retaining possession in tight spaces, so standard sort of pressing they can deal with relatively well.

We're not Dortmund before you use that example. You know full well we arn't even close to last season's Southampton yet let alone one of the most aggressive teams off the ball in Europe - who completely overwhelmed Arsenal a few weeks ago. Not to mention Dortmund are much more of a match for Arsenal than we are - and we're going away to them.

The point is, had we been 'trying' to press them it would of made it easier for them to work spaces. We might of fared better in winning the ball back more often but they would of fared better in us losing the compact nature of our shape.

I know Adebayor could of done a lot better, and I'm use to this lackadaisical performance from him.

I think overall it was the correct thing to do. The forwards could of done better in work rate, yes. But the deep and compact shape allowed us to limit what they could create. It worked a treat in that respect.

Ultimately that was the game plan, so how can you describe it as a piss poor performance in general when they've been instructed to sit deep and stay compact?

Not only have they've followed their manager's instructions and enforced his game plan, but its worked. In the end they had 70% of the ball yet we created the more threatening situations - from winning the ball back in that area in front of our box - like Capoue did, for example, to set Lamela away...and then Chadli.

Why is it a piss poor performance in general when they've only done what they've been tasked to do?
 
Last edited:

Spurger King

can't smile without glue
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
40,910
Fucking hell, is this still going on?

Surely the obvious answer is that we certainly weren't great, but it was still an encouraging performance given how early on it is in Pochettino's tenure. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't awful either. It looked like Pochettino set us up to do as well as we could at this moment in time, when several players are still struggling to adapt to his system.

If we play like that in 6 months time I'd be concerned, but for where we are right now I'd say it was a reason to be positive. Certainly way too early to be dissecting it too critically or too affirmatively.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
I know you understand the plan, but surely to God you're going to see less pressing if you're, by in large, sitting a bit deeper with a compact shape.

Arsenal are good enough to handle a decent pressing team at home. They're exceptionally adept at retaining possession in tight spaces, so standard sort of pressing they can deal with relatively well.

We're not Dortmund before you use that example. You know full well we arn't even close to last season's Southampton yet let alone one of the most aggressive teams off the ball in Europe - who completely overwhelmed Arsenal a few weeks ago. Not to mention Dortmund are much more of a match for Arsenal than we are - and we're going away to them.

The point is, had we been 'trying' to press them it would of made it easier for them to work spaces. We might of fared better in winning the ball back more often but they would of fared better in us losing the compact nature of our shape.

I know Adebayor could of done a lot better, and I'm use to this lackadaisical performance from him.

I think overall it was the correct thing to do. The forwards could of done better in work rate, yes. But the deep and compact shape allowed us to limit what they could create. It worked a treat in that respect.

Ultimately that was the game plan, so how can you describe it as a piss poor performance in general when they've been instructed to sit deep and stay compact. Not only have they've followed their manager's instructions and enforced his game plan, but its worked. In the end they had 70% of the ball yet we created the more threatening situations.

Why is it a piss poor performance in general when they've only done what they've been tasked to do?


We don't have to be Dortmund. Let me give you the best and most relevant example I can think of.

How about what Liverpool did to us three weeks ago. They were compact, well organised, but still pressed coherently and cohesively in the three layers and side to side., and still had the energy to create more chances than we did against Arsenal without conceding many.

How about my favourite Spurs performance of the last 5 years. Guess what, we didn't win the possession. Milan away. We went with the same type of plan as Saturday. But everyone worked, everyone closed down, we were coherent off the ball, and we still had the energy to win.

Just because we sat a bit deeper and didn't want to go hung ho isn't an excuse for the sloppy half arsed and disorganised crap we saw plenty of on Saturday.

Yes you pick and choose when and how to press, but you never ever just do the kind off sloppy half arsed shit some of our players were doing and you are a damn site more careful with the ball as well. JUst as Liverpool were and we were against Milan that night.


I don't expect this to happen over night, or even over weeks or a few months, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say something's right when it's not. Say I think we play well when we don't. And we didn't.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
We don't have to be Dortmund. Let me give you the best and most relevant example I can think of.

How about what Liverpool did to us three weeks ago. They were compact, well organised, but still pressed coherently and cohesively in the three layers and side to side., and still had the energy to create more chances than we did against Arsenal without conceding many.

How about my favourite Spurs performance of the last 5 years. Guess what, we didn't win the possession. Milan away. We went with the same type of plan as Saturday. But everyone worked, everyone closed down, we were coherent off the ball, and we still had the energy to win.

Just because we sat a bit deeper and didn't want to go hung ho isn't an excuse for the sloppy half arsed and disorganised crap we saw plenty of on Saturday.

Yes you pick and choose when and how to press, but you never ever just do the kind off sloppy half arsed shit some of our players were doing and you are a damn site more careful with the ball as well. JUst as Liverpool were and we were against Milan that night.


I don't expect this to happen over night, or even over weeks or a few months, but that doesn't mean I'm going to say something's right when it's not. Say I think we play well when we don't. And we didn't.
Personally I didn't think Liverpool were all that 3 weeks ago. No coincidence they've been poor in just about every other game either side of it.

I think we made them look better than they were. We were exceptionally sluggish in that game and if I'm honest I think we had last season's drubbings on our mind as well.

I know Balotelli had a few chances early doors, and Sterling had another very good one in the second half, but overall it was like we froze in the moment.

Liverpool were far better last season IMO, not just in terms of Suarez either.

Anyway, this is just going to keep going round and round in circles.

I think we did well in terms of what the manager, by in large, wanted us to do.

You don't.

We're using different variables and criteria to measure performance, that's the crux of our division in opinion.

But in terms of what the manager has said, he's pleased with the performance and that's all we can go on. Not that he would say that, bla bla bla.

In the end BC, I think you know deep down it wasn't an all round piss poor performance. That's over the top and you know it.

Is it really that hard to say, ok, I was initially a bit harsh but there are still some aspects of the performance that didn't impress me and I stand by that...???

Is that really that hard to say?
 

beats1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2010
Messages
26,276
Personally I didn't think Liverpool were all that 3 weeks ago. No coincidence they've been poor in just about every other game either side of it.

I think we made them look better than they were. We were exceptionally sluggish in that game and if I'm honest I think we had last season's drubbings on our mind as well.

I know Balotelli had a few chances early doors, and Sterling had another very good one in the second half, but overall it was like we froze in the moment.

Liverpool were far better last season IMO, not just in terms of Suarez either.

Anyway, this is just going to keep going round and round in circles.

I think we did well in terms of what the manager, by in large, wanted us to do.

You don't.

We're using different variables and criteria to measure performance, that's the crux of our division in opinion.

But in terms of what the manager has said, he's pleased with the performance and that's all we can go on. Not that he would say that, bla bla bla.

In the end BC, I think you know deep down it wasn't an all round piss poor performance. That's over the top and you know it.

Is it really that hard to say, ok, I was initially a bit harsh but there are still some aspects of the performance that didn't impress me and I stand by that...???

Is that really that hard to say?
In terms of pressing they were better than anyone I have seen in the PL and I said to @thinktank at the time they only did that because we were a big team and had to win but they cant do that against the small sides or sustain it for a season.

Their recent performances have been nothing like that for the last couple of games because teams are sitting back against them and not allowing them space behind the back 4 and not to mention they are missing Sturridge who is a much harder worker than Balotelli
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
In terms of pressing they were better than anyone I have seen in the PL and I said to @thinktank at the time they only did that because we were a big team and had to win but they cant do that against the small sides or sustain it for a season.

Their recent performances have been nothing like that for the last couple of games because teams are sitting back against them and not allowing them space behind the back 4 and not to mention they are missing Sturridge who is a much harder worker than Balotelli
They were piss poor in their first game of the season against Southampton with Sturridge in the side to. Southampton were doing anything but sitting back either, they took the game to them and controlled it.

I thought they're best half of football wasn't in our game, but their first half against City. I also thought, overall, they were better last season.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
Personally I didn't think Liverpool were all that 3 weeks ago. No coincidence they've been poor in just about every other game either side of it.

I think we made them look better than they were. We were exceptionally sluggish in that game and if I'm honest I think we had last season's drubbings on our mind as well.

I know Balotelli had a few chances early doors, and Sterling had another very good one in the second half, but overall it was like we froze in the moment.

Liverpool were far better last season IMO, not just in terms of Suarez either.

Anyway, this is just going to keep going round and round in circles.

I think we did well in terms of what the manager, by in large, wanted us to do.

You don't.

We're using different variables and criteria to measure performance, that's the crux of our division in opinion.

But in terms of what the manager has said, he's pleased with the performance and that's all we can go on. Not that he would say that, bla bla bla.

In the end BC, I think you know deep down it wasn't an all round piss poor performance. That's over the top and you know it.

Is it really that hard to say, ok, I was initially a bit harsh but there are still some aspects of the performance that didn't impress me and I stand by that...???

Is that really that hard to say?

I don't know why you think I would say that was a good performance when you know full well what I value on a football pitch, we've done this dance often enough for you to know by heart. And it isn't just about what teams do with the ball. Even longer than that I've been banging on about pressing properly, teams working cohesively and coherently as a team. Defending as teams and attacking as teams.


I don't believe for one minute Pochettino will be pleased with that performance either. I think he'll be pleased he survived a bad performance and got a result.

I said the same on many other occasions, and you've probably disagreed every time, about very similar performances. Under Jol we were like that away almost every game. When Redknapp beat Arsenal away. When AVB beat ManU away. Same shit different days for me. And I like both AVB and Pochettino very much, so it's not about favourites.

Why can't you just admit that it's highly unlikely a man who has pressing and coordination at the centre of his ethos, a man who believes in the group ethos, would be happy with a lot of what went on that game. You could just say yeah OK it was pretty shit by a few, we defended badly as a group and didn't create much either but at least we got a point blah, blah.

When I posted up about the guy who saw/heard Pochettino bollocking Eriksen your first reaction wasn't "OK I may be wrong here" it was to ridicule an article you'd previously stated was good in another thread.

You're as intransigent as you are accusing me of being.

Let me ask you a question. Did you enjoy watching that game ?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
Fucking hell, is this still going on?

Surely the obvious answer is that we certainly weren't great, but it was still an encouraging performance given how early on it is in Pochettino's tenure. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't awful either. It looked like Pochettino set us up to do as well as we could at this moment in time, when several players are still struggling to adapt to his system.

If we play like that in 6 months time I'd be concerned, but for where we are right now I'd say it was a reason to be positive. Certainly way too early to be dissecting it too critically or too affirmatively.

What encouraged you about that performance ? Genuine question.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
Personally I didn't think Liverpool were all that 3 weeks ago. No coincidence they've been poor in just about every other game either side of it.

I think we made them look better than they were. We were exceptionally sluggish in that game and if I'm honest I think we had last season's drubbings on our mind as well.
See this is where you are inconsistent IMO. You don't think Liverpool are all that, despite coming to WHL, being very compact, and putting into place an almost perfect game plan. They defended better than we did, and created more than we did and won 3-0.

But you want to say ours was a good performance doing a much less cohesive job, allowing more danger close and in our box and creating much much fewer chances ourselves.

The difference in this two performances was that Liverpool were much much more coordinated, cohesive and disciplined. How an earth that is deemed not all that, but ours a good performance I can't rationalise at all.

For the record, I said at the time I don't think Liverpool were as good as everyone said (very slick at each end and well drilled), but that we were better than most said. But their performance at WHL was better than ours saturday, that's for sure.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,736
I don't know why you think I would say that was a good performance when you know full well what I value on a football pitch, we've done this dance often enough for you to know by heart. And it isn't just about what teams do with the ball. Even longer than that I've been banging on about pressing properly, teams working cohesively and coherently as a team. Defending as teams and attacking as teams.


I don't believe for one minute Pochettino will be pleased with that performance either. I think he'll be pleased he survived a bad performance and got a result.

I said the same on many other occasions, and you've probably disagreed every time, about very similar performances. Under Jol we were like that away almost every game. When Redknapp beat Arsenal away. When AVB beat ManU away. Same shit different days for me. And I like both AVB and Pochettino very much, so it's not about favourites.

Why can't you just admit that it's highly unlikely a man who has pressing and coordination at the centre of his ethos, a man who believes in the group ethos, would be happy with a lot of what went on that game. You could just say yeah OK it was pretty shit by a few, we defended badly as a group and didn't create much either but at least we got a point blah, blah.

When I posted up about the guy who saw/heard Pochettino bollocking Eriksen your first reaction wasn't "OK I may be wrong here" it was to ridicule an article you'd previously stated was good in another thread.

You're as intransigent as you are accusing me of being.

Let me ask you a question. Did you enjoy watching that game ?
I didn't ridicule that article, it was only the bit on Chadli I thought was a bit sort of corny and I've already explained what I liked about it. It was in a completely different context to what we're discussing in here. I'm at a lost as to why you keep citing that as if its a contradiction on my part. It most certainly isn't. All what I said is that I liked that it called for patience as Eriksen is a bit of a free spirit and it could take time to instill a harder work ethic to his game.

You don't think he'll be happy with that performance? Well, I'd be bet my mortgage on it that he was - because that's the way he set them out to play, pretty much - bar Adebayor's lax showing.

The difference is the here and now though, present circumstances etc. Would he be happy if we're playing like that on a regular basis for weeks to come? Obviously not.

You've got to show an appreciation for context, and stop ignoring it. We've been struggling to implement his style in any sort of consistent fashion so far, in fact you'd call it ad hoc smatterings at best. What chance was more of the same of that going to do for us in a NLD?

No, the best way to get a result was to set up in a way to frustrate Arsenal and that's what we did and that's what got us a result in a period were we've been struggling to adopt and practice his style on the pitch.

It worked. So yes I'd certainly bet he was happy with this performance given the aforementioned circumstances.

That's the context, doesn't mean he can't get back to implementing his style in preparation for the next game.

As for the watching the game, I was enjoying every time we got forward on the counter but was then frustrated with our failure to pick the right pass or execute it properly. Had we been better in these instances, I think it would of been bloody exciting personally. Nervy for long spells in the second half but that's to be expected going away there on the cusp of getting a result.

Not sure how many people can relax and enjoy the NLD, especially away at the Emirates.

But I'll tell you this much, I enjoyed it a shit lot more than what we saw last season there.
 
Last edited:
Top