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Match Ratings Ratings vs Arsenal

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Trippier

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Verts

    Votes: 18 3.8%
  • Davies

    Votes: 20 4.2%
  • Dier

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 370 78.2%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 5 1.1%
  • Dele

    Votes: 7 1.5%
  • Son

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • Kane

    Votes: 26 5.5%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 9 1.9%
  • Wanyama

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Poch

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 2 0.4%

  • Total voters
    473

seanwhite1961

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2011
1,089
678
Jan Molby is an interesting point of comparison. He undoubtedly knew when, where, and how, to release the ball. He always seemed to have a ridiculous amount of time on the ball though (partly because of his vision, obviously; partly perhaps because of Liverpool's general dominance at the time) - no way would he stand out to the degree Dembele does in the modern game. Dembele is a clear class above Jan on this form.
The "Fat Dane".

Is Dembele a class above? He certainly looks more impressive on the ball, with his balance, control and strength. He looks "busier", with that ability to shrug off challenges and retain the ball. He's better than Wilshere, but not Wiltshire, the county Jack is often mistaken for.

Perhaps, with more physical limitations, Molby learnt to release the ball earlier to more effect. The phenomenal increase in fitness(plus the ideas of nutrition and technical advances to monitor fitness) has meant that Molby would have to upgrade to play at the top level(although Huddlestone was a key partner with Modric in CL qualification).

That dominant Liverpool were renowned as a hard drinking team, not uncommon, something that now would be regarded as poorly as calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist.
 

seanwhite1961

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2011
1,089
678
Sorry mate, but as I’m flicking through a thread, if I see something I disagree with I give it a negative rating. If someone is constantly spouting nonsense, they’re going to get multiple negs. That’s not an excuse for you to go around revenge negging on posts you don’t even disagree with from days ago. When I disagree with something I’m disagreeing with the content of the post - it’s not a personal attack on the poster. You’re letting yourself down here.
Alright mate, but you're wrong. Presumably you don't positively rate every post you agree with. It's a forum, not The X-Factor.

"If I see something I disagree with I give it a negative rating. If someone is constantly spouting nonsense, they’re going to get multiple negs." - that's not the purpose of the rating system. Essentially it's a lazy way to not reply to posts, by emptily posting "yes" or "no" and spamming a thread.

I don't repeatedly neg a poster once I've done it. If I feel that strongly I post a reply. That's my beef with a couple of members, who did that within a few minutes.

The nonsense, LVB, that you see spouted, is only the same nonsense that others will accuse you of spouting. Unless we all agree on everything and then there is no point in a forum.
 

parj

NDombelly ate all the pies
Jul 27, 2003
3,586
5,861
Alright mate, but you're wrong. Presumably you don't positively rate every post you agree with. It's a forum, not The X-Factor.

"If I see something I disagree with I give it a negative rating. If someone is constantly spouting nonsense, they’re going to get multiple negs." - that's not the purpose of the rating system. Essentially it's a lazy way to not reply to posts, by emptily posting "yes" or "no" and spamming a thread.

I don't repeatedly neg a poster once I've done it. If I feel that strongly I post a reply. That's my beef with a couple of members, who did that within a few minutes.

The nonsense, LVB, that you see spouted, is only the same nonsense that others will accuse you of spouting. Unless we all agree on everything and then there is no point in a forum.

You neg rep then come up with a childish response. If you don't like someone doing what you do then think about what you are doing and come up with a reasoned argument. But as seen already you are not capable of that.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,331
For the record, Ive given Dembele MOTM several times over the last 3/4 years. I think he was decent for the first 45 minutes, very good for the next 30 and poor for the last 15. I can't really agree with the general consensus that he was out of this world. I'm sorry, I just don't. I think he's one of those players that engenders this over the top reaction to any good performance because he can dribble, and people love a bit of dribble. But with a very stolid DM like Dier net to him, I'd be more impressed if at the end of one of those dribbles he played a truly incisive pass, played a through ball, played a FB in behind a defender etc etc (or even played the kind of pass that Wiltshire played for PEA first half - yes I now Wiltshire's a tosser who's not fit to lace Dembele's boots etc).




I know you didn't mention the Southampton game, that's my point, why not ? It's become detached from this little sequence because it doesn't quite fit the narrative of Dembele being "back to his best".

I think the team got an almighty kick up the arse after the Southampton game, helped very much by having ManU at home, a game in which ManU were as bad as I've seen them, tactically and in application, and even then it was our front four that set the tone for that game and it was Eriksen who was the game's outstanding player.

We then play Liverpool away and Dembele and Dier are like farts in a trance for the first 45 minutes when Liverpool are actually trying. Of course, once Liverpool run out of puff and are shelling (which they even did against Southampton yesterday after the scored) Dembele looks OK again.

If Dembele was playing defence splitting passes every 10 minutes that pass completion would orgasmic, but we're lucky f we get one every ten games. He's played next to Dier, whose role is to be solid, his passing is incredibly limited, so we really need Dembele to be more pro-active with his passing in that role. I would swap 5-10% of Dembele's pass completion if he was constantly seeing and trying riskier, more incisive passes. Playing through balls, playing FB's in behind, playing quick, clever passes that break through a deep block etc. But he so rarely does. I don't mean be reckless constantly, just a little bit more.

Even Saturday there were times when Trippier was standing with his arms in the air in acres of space, but because Dembele was busy dribbling, or because it would mean by-passing (A)Dier and going straight to (C)Trippier, the pass doesn't get played - too risky.

This isn't black and white. I'm not saying I think Dembele is a bad player - far from it, I've always, always acknowledged his got some outstanding qualities and there have been many, many games when I've been thankful he's out there and many weeks I'd still pick him, because he's the best option we have for many occasions.

I've always acknowledged he can be and often is very good at that footballing 6 role - he was for a big chunk of Saturday. I just think when we are playing a Dier or Wanyama in there, especially against teams parking buses, what we really need is a tenacious 8, a Hamsik, Naingolen, Tolisso, Vidal, not another uber safe pair of hands who decorates every safe pass with a dribble for good measure.

If football was played in a 30 metre cage with no goals, Dembele would be the first name on the team sheet. But it isn't. He still viable on his good days, but I just don't think those good days are as wonderful as some, and I think there are an awful lot of not so good days - or phases of games - that are bundled into the package.

I just wanted your opinion on his performance over the last three games, but I guess you didn't want to just answer that...

Anyway, fair enough, but I just always get the feeling you have to caveat an all round excellence performance with some criticism to keep the balance withn the realms of your own narrative.

No player is perfect but at the end of the day, at his best, he helps us to completey dominate the midfield which is what we largely did in the last three games
They were fucking insipid for 45 minutes against Liverpool and piss poor against Southampton the week before ManU. So if they were the core of our win against Arsenal, it's fair to say they were the core of the why we didn't win against Liverpool and Southampton. Dembele was also in CM when we got mullered by ManC and outplayed by Arsenal away and lost to Leicester away etc.

Dier's had some awful games in midfield throughout the season.

If you really want to play Dier and Dembele bingo we can go on and on, and through last season too, when many of our best performances came without Dembele and/or Dier in midfield. As have some of this season's (Liverpool had Alli, Winks and Eriksen FFS).

This is cyclical, Dembele has just managed a decent game, half a decent game and 2/3rds of a decent game on the spin for the first time in 7 months, and suddenly he's the best CM in Europe again. The next Southampton or Liverpool first half or Arsenal away, or Leicester away etc this thread will go quiet for a while.

You guys spend a lot of time pissing yourselves at Liverpool fans for exactly this type of myopic adulation. Dembele can be a very good player when he's fit, when he has a good team round him that are all doing there jobs and the opposition aren't pressing well. But we've waited 7 months for him to to have a decent couple of weeks. And it was much the same last season when he was absent for a chunk and we still had the best season we've had for about 60 years.

Dembele can be a fucking useful player, but he's not the No.8 wonder bread we desperately need when we are often trying to break teams down. In terms of what he's producing in key (or incisive play) it's barely ever changed, barely ever been good. As a kind of robust, footballing 6, when he's actually fully fit (when) he can do a very decent job, be very good at that kind of hybrid role, but when you have a player like Wanyama who's an exceptionally good 6, you really need an 8 who can actually inject some tempo, supply the creative spark, move the ball quicker and with a bit more vision ideally.

And Dier I can't even be bothered to argue about. He can do a job on a good day, but I think we should aspire for more than that, and there are no circumstances in which he should be ahead of Wanyama as a CM in this team when both are fit.

All this bollox about splitting the game into three spells.


You're the only Spurs fan I know who doesn't think Dembele was outstanding against Arsenal and against United, and for the majority of the game against Liverpool.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I just wanted your opinion on his performance over the last three games, but I guess you didn't want to just answer that...

Strange thing to say, I've answered it about seven times. Decent against Utd, piss poor first half against Liverpool and decent in the second half, OK first half against Arsenal, very good for the first 30 minutes of the second half and not good for the last 15.

No player is perfect but at the end of the day, at his best, he helps us to completey dominate the midfield which is what we largely did in the last three games

We dominate most games we play, with or without Dembele, it's our style, it's the way we play. It's what you do with that domination that matters, and what Dembele does with that domination in particular that I sometimes think is misunderstood and over stated.

And often when we are up against the toughest tests, Dembele doesn't help dominate, such as Arsenal away, such as Liverpool first half away, such as ManC away.

At his best his robust, calm presence and ultra reliable passing can be a real asset, I've said this so many times. But the "at his best" small print is what potential buyers of the hype really need to pay attention to isn't it, because the perfect storm of serendipitous footballing events that he needs to be at his best have not aligned themselves too often in the last two years.

You're the only Spurs fan I know who doesn't think Dembele was outstanding against Arsenal and against United, and for the majority of the game against Liverpool.

pfffttt....
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,331
Strange thing to say, I've answered it about seven times. Decent against Utd, piss poor first half against Liverpool and decent in the second half, OK first half against Arsenal, very good for the first 30 minutes of the second half and not good for the last 15.



We dominate most games we play, with or without Dembele, it's our style, it's the way we play. It's what you do with that domination that matters, and what Dembele does with that domination in particular that I sometimes think is misunderstood and over stated.

And often when we are up against the toughest tests, Dembele doesn't help dominate, such as Arsenal away, such as Liverpool first half away, such as ManC away.

At his best his robust, calm presence and ultra reliable passing can be a real asset, I've said this so many times. But the "at his best" small print is what potential buyers of the hype really need to pay attention to isn't it, because the perfect storm of serendipitous footballing events that he needs to be at his best have not aligned themselves too often in the last two years.



pfffttt....

I can't remember being so dominant for a full half at Anfield before, certainly not in recent years.

Or creating as many chances as we did against Arsenal or United, scorelines that flattered both massively, where an aggregate score of about 8-0 would of been about right.

Meh...each to their own
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
Every time people start doubting Dembele he puts in monsterous performances like that.

Just keep saving him for the big games, he can’t hack it for a full season though unfortunately.

Thing is like all players he does need a regular run of games to be at his best. It's why he keeps getting written off - he misses a few and comes back rusty as you'd expect. As soon as he gets up to speed and plays a few games in a row he gets back into beast mode.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I can't remember being so dominant for a full half at Anfield before, certainly not in recent years.

Or creating as many chances as we did against Arsenal or United, scorelines that flattered both massively, where an aggregate score of about 8-0 would of been about right.

Meh...each to their own


Yeah, but I'm not sure how much of that was about what Dembele did.

Eriksen was the outstanding player against Utd, saw almost as much ball as Dembele, completed 92%, but was also playing incisive passes all night long.

No matter how good he was second half at Liverpool (and we may disagree slightly on that) I can't ignore the first half. Again, you accuse me of caveating to fit a narrative, but your ignoring a whole half of football to suit yours.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Tonight on MNF, Carragher strangely didn't mention Dembele at all, but did a whole piece on how we defend and particularly focused on Sanchez and Vertonghen (praising both but particularly Vertonghen).
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Aug 25, 2010
54,770
99,331
Yeah, but I'm not sure how much of that was about what Dembele did.

Eriksen was the outstanding player against Utd, saw almost as much ball as Dembele, completed 92%, but was also playing incisive passes all night long.

No matter how good he was second half at Liverpool (and we may disagree slightly on that) I can't ignore the first half. Again, you accuse me of caveating to fit a narrative, but your ignoring a whole half of football to suit yours.

No, I disagree with you. The first ten minutes at Anfield was poor, but thereafter it was even enough. Sanchez's nervousness made us fragile at times but there wasn't that much in it after the first 10-15 minutes.

Second half we totally bossed it and a lot of that stemmed from our strength in the middle of the park, to retain possession and control the game at a very difficult ground.

I think Dembele's strength and Eriksen's intelligence are a lovely combination, when both are at their best I think we're an extremely strong side, but having that powerful influence in the middle of the park really does make a huge difference to us.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
No, I disagree with you. The first ten minutes at Anfield was poor, but thereafter it was even enough. Sanchez's nervousness made us fragile at times but there wasn't that much in it after the first 10-15 minutes.

Second half we totally bossed it and a lot of that stemmed from our strength in the middle of the park, to retain possession and control the game at a very difficult ground.

I think Dembele's strength and Eriksen's intelligence are a lovely combination, when both are at their best I think we're an extremely strong side, but having that powerful influence in the middle of the park really does make a huge difference to us.


Even if I agreed with you about the last three games, we are now 27 games into a season, and we've had to wait until now for Dembele to have three decent games. I think we have to be hoping for someone a bit more consistent, someone who can make a "huge difference" on a much more regular basis.

And if we are playing players like Dier (or hopefully Wanyama) I don't think strength is the the thing we need most from our other cm most weeks (some but not most) I think it's things like tempo, direction and some incision would be more useful for a high percentage of the time.

I agree that on a very good day Dembele can be a real asset, but those days over his time with us, especially the last two years have been a rarity, and we are trying to compete at the very highest level now, we need someone who brings an Eriksen, Vertonghen, Kane level of quality, consistency and influence most weeks, like they do.
 

nferno

Waiting for England to finally win the Euros-2024?
Jan 7, 2007
7,014
10,012
Thing is like all players he does need a regular run of games to be at his best. It's why he keeps getting written off - he misses a few and comes back rusty as you'd expect. As soon as he gets up to speed and plays a few games in a row he gets back into beast mode.

Yeah, that’s the caveat... hopefully Poch is working this one out. I’d say restrict his minutes against the shit teams so he’s only ever playing max 60 minutes in them to keep his match fitness going and so he’s sharp for the big games.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Anyway, fair enough, but I just always get the feeling you have to caveat an all round excellence performance with some criticism to keep the balance withn the realms of your own narrative.

Bing-fucking-go...

Things I was looking out for in BC's match report:

- The overrating of Trippier's performance (decent without being anything better)
- Play down the influence of Dier and Dembele, the least favourite CM pairing of the big man

100%. Never in doubt.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Tonight on MNF, Carragher strangely didn't mention Dembele at all, but did a whole piece on how we defend and particularly focused on Sanchez and Vertonghen (praising both but particularly Vertonghen).

Too difficult to pronounce without drowning in his own saliva.
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
2,776
553
They were fucking insipid for 45 minutes against Liverpool and piss poor against Southampton the week before ManU. So if they were the core of our win against Arsenal, it's fair to say they were the core of the why we didn't win against Liverpool and Southampton. Dembele was also in CM when we got mullered by ManC and outplayed by Arsenal away and lost to Leicester away etc.

Dier's had some awful games in midfield throughout the season.

If you really want to play Dier and Dembele bingo we can go on and on, and through last season too, when many of our best performances came without Dembele and/or Dier in midfield. As have some of this season's (Liverpool had Alli, Winks and Eriksen FFS).

This is cyclical, Dembele has just managed a decent game, half a decent game and 2/3rds of a decent game on the spin for the first time in 7 months, and suddenly he's the best CM in Europe again. The next Southampton or Liverpool first half or Arsenal away, or Leicester away etc this thread will go quiet for a while.

You guys spend a lot of time pissing yourselves at Liverpool fans for exactly this type of myopic adulation. Dembele can be a very good player when he's fit, when he has a good team round him that are all doing there jobs and the opposition aren't pressing well. But we've waited 7 months for him to to have a decent couple of weeks. And it was much the same last season when he was absent for a chunk and we still had the best season we've had for about 60 years.

Dembele can be a fucking useful player, but he's not the No.8 wonder bread we desperately need when we are often trying to break teams down. In terms of what he's producing in key (or incisive play) it's barely ever changed, barely ever been good. As a kind of robust, footballing 6, when he's actually fully fit (when) he can do a very decent job, be very good at that kind of hybrid role, but when you have a player like Wanyama who's an exceptionally good 6, you really need an 8 who can actually inject some tempo, supply the creative spark, move the ball quicker and with a bit more vision ideally.

And Dier I can't even be bothered to argue about. He can do a job on a good day, but I think we should aspire for more than that, and there are no circumstances in which he should be ahead of Wanyama as a CM in this team when both are fit.
Even though Poch has a professional coaching team behind him he will know his own mind and want to avoid second guessing himself. Although injuries can quickly alter things I feel on the present levels of match fitness he has Trippier in front of Aurier....Davies up ahead of Rose and Son in front of Lamela. Dier has constantly been in every side he picks, regardless of the formation, so even though Dembele has regained form, it is actually Wanyama / Dembele after one central spot, not Dier. You clearly would prefer Wanyama in but I feel Poch (in spite of last seasons fine Wanyama / Dembele double act) is going with the bloke who hasn't let him down by constantly being there. There are always players biding their time in a squad system. Lamela Winks Rose are three who come to mind for us.....Moura will come into the reckoning as well but wont be displacing anyone in the main games just yet. I will be surprised if he changes anyone from the Arsenal match Juve. In the first half Saturday we were too pedestrian in passing giving their clumped midfield ample time to adjust. In the second half we dominated in all ways apart from the scoreboard. Rarely seen us dominate them so much physically, in the air, in the tackle and speed to the ball. Wonderful
 

Sanj

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2003
1,680
1,130
Just read the 1st 3 pages, and whilst i agree that Dembele was immense - i think only @glospur has given Dier the credit he deserved. I thought he was superb, but unflashy. His positioning and cover gave the defense protection, his tackling and harrying pushed them back on countless attacks and his passing was very underrated. He may not be as easy on the eye as Dembele, but was just as important in this game.

Also, the desire in the whole team was evident. Son and Eriksen were up for it - tackling back and getting stuck in, Davies was flying into tackles, Trippier was taking players on - this is a team playing with skill, intensity and belief. I'm loving watching this team at the moment !!
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
I don't think Dier brought anything to the table in this game. The first half especially he was fucking awful (that analysis video doing the rounds on YouTube is very misguided, lets put it that way....) - has no vision and just gives it to the closest man, the ambitious passes he does try are ones he cant pull off (including a couple where he gets horribly flustered after a poor touch and just tries force play in a hurry), he has no idea where to move to and make himself available, and Arsenal knew all this so he was the only one they left free to have the ball. He didn't even press or screen the defence that well., the amount of times they found a player between the lines.

Dembele's good work for me is defensive - in that he retains the ball for you, and allows you to build a platform and get set and then others take over 40 yards from goal. When he's fit and relatively mobile he gets about and breaks up play as well. Maybe not in the biggest of games, but I don't see why you cant have him as the DM in some games, and pair him with a Winks, maybe even Eriksen, or a new signing in future, someone who is more of a ball player rather than another defensive minded player.
 
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Led's Zeppelin

Can't Re Member
May 28, 2013
7,333
20,178
@Bus-Conductor , dribbling in the manner of Dembele against Arsenal wasn’t decorative. It was an essential ingredient to our play.

He holds the ball as few others can, avoiding all challenges for long enough that other players can find their positions so he can then play a relatively simple ball to someone like Dele or Eriksen who are more penetrative right up there in the final attacking phase. He transforms neutral and defensive periods of play into attacks more effectively than almost anyone. He doesn’t play the decisive ball very often, but he makes a decisive contribution in a different way.

I know you acknowledge his ability but I think, from reading your comments, that you’re slightly expecting him to do different job from the one he does uniquely well.
 
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