Ratings vs Burnley

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 12 4.0%
  • Walker

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Fazio

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Verts

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Davies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Bentaleb

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Mason

    Votes: 8 2.7%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 171 56.8%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 68 22.6%
  • Chadli

    Votes: 6 2.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 21 7.0%
  • Stambouli

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Soldado

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • Rose

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • None Deserved

    Votes: 1 0.3%

  • Total voters
    301

prawnsandwich

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If you look at our squad, it's only our strikers (and Friedel) that are "old":

Oldest Defender - 28 (I'm not counting BAE)
Oldest CM - 27
Oldest AM/winger - 27
Oldest Striker - 30
Age is irrelevant. Drogba is in every squad for Chelsea.
A player is either good enough or not. We have a fantastic squad with great players moaned about.
 

Blake Griffin

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12,173
Age is irrelevant. Drogba is in every squad for Chelsea.
A player is either good enough or not. We have a fantastic squad with great players moaned about.
age is irrelevant for chelsea but for spurs, building a young team that can grow together is our only shot at ever toppling the sides who blow us out of the water financially.
 

Spursidol

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But that is to a large extent the nature of transfers. They can't all work when you are shopping in the "value" isle. I don't have a problem with any of the logic we followed with most of those transfers, even Lamela after scoring 15 for Roma, aged 21, on the way to finishing 2nd in Italy.

I reckon we won't lose too much money overall on that 2013 group.
Agreed its the nature of transfers (as with all acquisitions in all walks of life), but overall in recent years we've probably had more successes than failures . But with the famous 7 we didn't

In terms of value, if we sold those 7 now, we'd make money on Eriksen, but none of the others I'd guess, and we'd certainly lose money on a few. And as I've said elsewhere Lamela needs a big jump in current performance to justify his price tag - and there are not that many AM's who cost more so chances of making money on him are....not great !
 
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Agreed its the nature of transfers (as with all acquisitions in all walks of life), but overall in recent years we've probably had more successes than failures . But with the famous 7 we didn't

In terms of value, if we sold those 7 now, we'd make money on Eriksen, but none of the others I'd guess, and we'd certainly lose money on a few. And as I've said elsewhere Lamela needs a big jump in current performance to justify his price tag - and there are not that many AM's who cost more so chances of making money on him are....not great !

Lets see what happens. Hopefully, as long as we don't have better options (which we don't right now) we will give Lamela the same sort of patience we gave Bale, who was also looking pretty inconsistent aged 22 and probably wasn't turning in much better numbers either, he certainly wasn't seeing more ball or working as hard as Lamela does when he doesn't have the ball.

I don't think Lamela will ever hit Bale's success, but we can all see the kid has genuine, productive talent. Given fair time and tactically used well he could pay back his investment and then a bit.

I should just clarify one thing. In terms of the logic of signing most of those players as stand alone deals I can understand them. What I do disagree with is signing a couple of them at all when we had players here in the development group who could have done at least as competent a job.
 
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Exactly.

Bolded text: With the information on the OS, available on t'Internet, and the number of times it has been put together and stated on here, I am amazed that there are still folk on this forum who just don't get that this is a central part of the strategic vision. AVB issued a statement, when he joined, to the effect that he was in complete accordance with the club for the aspirations for youth progression. His failure to act on this, and, particularly, his ring-fencing of the 1st team squad and exclusion of the youth, was according to ITK one of the issues that led to his exit. One of the main reasons Sherwood was given a chance was that he knew the younglings and was clearly prepared to play them - indeed, malicious tongues claim that he was one of the primary whisperers in Levy's ear concerning AVB's exclsuion of the youth, etc. Pochettino, likewise, made a statement concerning his willingness to promote from the youth set-up, acted on it, discussed at length his excitement at the youth set-up on a recent window, and had the reputation for doing exactly the same particularly at Southampton.

Pochettino was willing to give absolutely everyone a chance, so there is absolutely zero evidence that he came in with any agenda against any of our players - including those in midfield. So his decision to play Mason from early on makes it far more likely that he really did just see him as the best option, rather than as some kind of default to revert to because the big money midfielders performed so woefully. Just my opinion, of course.

I remain very disappointed that AVB didn't integrate better but with the exception of Bentaleb I'm not really sure who else was at that stage of readiness who he totally ignored. Kane had been packed off to Norwich for a long term loan I believe. And second season AVB did continually pick Rose and Townsend.

The biggest single mitigation in the league was the revelation that Levy had demanded 4th or better from AVB despite selling Modric and VDV, Adebayor missing pre season and King retiring and buying Dembele and Dempsey. It's very hard when unrealistic results are being demanded to have the patience and courage to risk kids.(Not that I agree it is always a risk)

That does not excuse not making better use in the cups though.


Do you have a link to AVB's statement about integrating academy players ?
 

Spursidol

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I remain very disappointed that AVB didn't integrate better but with the exception of Bentaleb I'm not really sure who else was at that stage of readiness who he totally ignored. Kane had been packed off to Norwich for a long term loan I believe. And second season AVB did continually pick Rose and Townsend.

The biggest single mitigation in the league was the revelation that Levy had demanded 4th or better from AVB despite selling Modric and VDV, Adebayor missing pre season and King retiring and buying Dembele and Dempsey. It's very hard when unrealistic results are being demanded to have the patience and courage to risk kids.(Not that I agree it is always a risk)

That does not excuse not making better use in the cups though.


Do you have a link to AVB's statement about integrating academy players ?
Lots of quotes around AVB developing youth from around the time of him joining Spurs, sharing Spurs desire to develop young players etc. Example :

The Spurs chairman said: "I am delighted that André has agreed to become our new head coach. He has an outstanding reputation for his technical knowledge of the game and for creating well-organised teams capable of playing football in an attractive and attacking style. André shares our long-term ambitions and ethos of developing players and nurturing young talent, and he will be able to do so now at a new world class training centre."

He (AVB) said: "Tottenham Hotspur is a great club with a strong tradition and fantastic support, both at home and throughout the world. I feel privileged to be its coach. For me, this is one of the most exciting coaching positions in the Premier League. I have had several discussions with the chairman and the board and I share their vision for the future progress of the club. This is a squad any coach would love to work with and together I believe we can bring success in the seasons ahead."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/03/andre-villas-boas-confirmed-tottenham-manager

Several others at a later date suggesting he would play youngsters in EL.....but if you recall Fredericks appeared for a half, after Spurs had won their group was about the only one
 

StartingPrice

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Messages
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I remain very disappointed that AVB didn't integrate better but with the exception of Bentaleb I'm not really sure who else was at that stage of readiness who he totally ignored. Kane had been packed off to Norwich for a long term loan I believe. And second season AVB did continually pick Rose and Townsend.

The biggest single mitigation in the league was the revelation that Levy had demanded 4th or better from AVB despite selling Modric and VDV, Adebayor missing pre season and King retiring and buying Dembele and Dempsey. It's very hard when unrealistic results are being demanded to have the patience and courage to risk kids.(Not that I agree it is always a risk)

That does not excuse not making better use in the cups though.


Do you have a link to AVB's statement about integrating academy players ?
Sorry, it is a memory I have...and like all memories could be mistaken. Sorry, can't find you a link - too tired, think I'm developing narcolepsy :-O

It's hard to say who he could or couldn't have integrated - though anyone who did go out on loan must have had his clearance, surely. Thought he might have given Carroll a bit more of a chance, personally, seen as losing Modric was such a big thing with him, and Carroll was the closest our youth has produced, since he lost out on Moutinho.

Had a discussion in the under-21's thread during his first season, where I defended him not introducing the youth on the grounds that he needed to get results first and then could maybe introduce one here and there, but by the Christmas of the second season I would be expecting him to make some effort on that score. Well, he was approaching that time when he parted company and there was not only little sign of including the younglings, but there was specific ITK that he had ring-fenced the 1st team squad and wouldn't even let them train together. TBH, by that stage I suspect that AVB was acting, in part at least, out of hubris.

As said in the thread on the subject, I'm not at all impressed by his latest statement. Dembélé was considered to be something of a revelation in his first few months at the Lane - there was even media talk of the possibility of United signing him, if feasible, after he biatched them for us at OT, having already done the same for Fulham, so a bit cute complaining about that. The list excludes Lloris - Levy had provided him with one of the most highly sought goalies in Europe. Etc. Apparently he was instrumental in VdV leaving. I'm not convinced that Levy set him any absolute target to get 4th - and the parting of the ways came well into the second season where 4th was still eminently achievable, we were hardly adrift.

I was disappointed that things didn't work out. I'm sure Levy isn't at all easy to work with, and did fook AVB on occasions, but, as said, I suspect hubris starts acting on Little Growler when he feels let down, and I found his latest interview to be less informative and more self-justifying.
 
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Lots of quotes around AVB developing youth from around the time of him joining Spurs, sharing Spurs desire to develop young players etc. Example :

The Spurs chairman said: "I am delighted that André has agreed to become our new head coach. He has an outstanding reputation for his technical knowledge of the game and for creating well-organised teams capable of playing football in an attractive and attacking style. André shares our long-term ambitions and ethos of developing players and nurturing young talent, and he will be able to do so now at a new world class training centre."

He (AVB) said: "Tottenham Hotspur is a great club with a strong tradition and fantastic support, both at home and throughout the world. I feel privileged to be its coach. For me, this is one of the most exciting coaching positions in the Premier League. I have had several discussions with the chairman and the board and I share their vision for the future progress of the club. This is a squad any coach would love to work with and together I believe we can bring success in the seasons ahead."

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jul/03/andre-villas-boas-confirmed-tottenham-manager

Several others at a later date suggesting he would play youngsters in EL.....but if you recall Fredericks appeared for a half, after Spurs had won their group was about the only one

Hmmm, not sure AVB is making too many promises there about integrating kids SI. Do you not think Levy demanding 4th or better made that harder ?

he played Rose and Townsend, but other than Bentaleb, who else could he have considered for the EPL ? Who was ready ? Even Sherwood didn't bring back Mason or Carroll.

When you're told you have to finish 4th (first year for example) would you have dropped Adebayor for the 19-20yo Kane ? Personally I'd have sooner given Kane time instead of Dempsey but that Kane wasn't the Kane we saw the latter part of last season and this.
 

Spursidol

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Hmmm, not sure AVB is making too many promises there about integrating kids SI. Do you not think Levy demanding 4th or better made that harder ?

he played Rose and Townsend, but other than Bentaleb, who else could he have considered for the EPL ? Who was ready ? Even Sherwood didn't bring back Mason or Carroll.

When you're told you have to finish 4th (first year for example) would you have dropped Adebayor for the 19-20yo Kane ? Personally I'd have sooner given Kane time instead of Dempsey but that Kane wasn't the Kane we saw the latter part of last season and this.
Your words on integrating not mine.

I've only said that AVb was in full agreement with Spurs policy to develop young players, which of course I agree must include integrating young players into the first team squad - developing young players must include that by definition.

ManU are currently playing a couple of E u18 players anmd when IO last looked are in 3rd position - so I don't accept that playing some youngsters some of the time is incompatable with a top 4 position. Its just a question of the roght youngsters at the right time - and that's what good managers are paid for.... no ?

Rose and Townsend were oinly played by AVB as they had already played for a season and half a season respectively in PL, so clearly had to be considered as reasonably experienced - it also suited AVB to hids behind them when the subject of playing youth came up...as you are of course.

Sharewood had 6 months so decided to bring through Bentaleb and Kane - a decent reyurnm fior 6 months, and indeed more than AVB achieved in 18 months.

Players that AVB could have played include Kane (rather than packing him off to Norwich where he was unlucky with a bad injury after about 2 games) and then almost ignored in AVB's 2nd season, Ryan Fredericks (who he did play in the last EL group game - and put in an outstanding performance. Just why did the Ginger fraud not rest Walker earlier in the group stages and play Fredericks ?), then there is Adam Smith who pretty much gave up under AVB (LLM claims to have met a very emotional angry Smith and brother saying this), then there was Mason and Carroll who could have been played by AVB but were not....oh and Bentaleb could equally have played under AVB but didn't .......

Sorry, AVB had opportunities to play a lot more youth but chose not to. And I can understand a manager choosing to buy and play experienced expensive players - its far less risk to his job (allegedly) and reputation...... but managers usually only get that opportunity at Real Madrid - even Man U are doing it this season.

Its impossible to say how some of the youth would have performed under AVB - but then again who (apart from the dedicated Spurs youth watchers) would have predicted how well Bentaleb would have started under Sherwood before going to the WC with Algeria or Kane scoring 3 in 7 PL games at the end of last season or Mason this season.

'To dare is to do' ? AVB ignored Spurs motto, failed to dare to play youth....and failed overall
 
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*sigh* Carroll could not be recalled and Mason was out with a long term injury. For the umpteenth time.
We were told at the time that Carroll could be recalled I'm sure. Most season loans have that built in, and I'm pretty sure the parent club can recall it's player any time if it wants can't it ? Mason was recalled from Lorient mid loan because they weren't playing him. And AVB recalled Kane from loan with Norwich early too I think, because we were short of strikers.

So when exactly was Mason inured during 2013-2014 season.


Who could AVB realistically have played in the EPL in his season and a half that he didn't ?

I think I'm right in saying AVB gave Kane his league debut, before he was sent off to Norwich for a season long loan, which has been a modus operandi for most of our youngsters deemed worth keeping - not just during AVB's tenure.

Think AVB possibly gave Mason his first Spurs start in a league cup game at Carlisle but he was also sent off on a season long loan to Lorient where he couldn't make a single starting line up and was eventually recalled.
 
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Your words on integrating not mine.

I've only said that AVb was in full agreement with Spurs policy to develop young players, which of course I agree must include integrating young players into the first team squad - developing young players must include that by definition.

ManU are currently playing a couple of E u18 players anmd when IO last looked are in 3rd position - so I don't accept that playing some youngsters some of the time is incompatable with a top 4 position. Its just a question of the roght youngsters at the right time - and that's what good managers are paid for.... no ?

Rose and Townsend were oinly played by AVB as they had already played for a season and half a season respectively in PL, so clearly had to be considered as reasonably experienced - it also suited AVB to hids behind them when the subject of playing youth came up...as you are of course.

Sharewood had 6 months so decided to bring through Bentaleb and Kane - a decent reyurnm fior 6 months, and indeed more than AVB achieved in 18 months.

Players that AVB could have played include Kane (rather than packing him off to Norwich where he was unlucky with a bad injury after about 2 games) and then almost ignored in AVB's 2nd season, Ryan Fredericks (who he did play in the last EL group game - and put in an outstanding performance. Just why did the Ginger fraud not rest Walker earlier in the group stages and play Fredericks ?), then there is Adam Smith who pretty much gave up under AVB (LLM claims to have met a very emotional angry Smith and brother saying this), then there was Mason and Carroll who could have been played by AVB but were not....oh and Bentaleb could equally have played under AVB but didn't .......

Sorry, AVB had opportunities to play a lot more youth but chose not to. And I can understand a manager choosing to buy and play experienced expensive players - its far less risk to his job (allegedly) and reputation...... but managers usually only get that opportunity at Real Madrid - even Man U are doing it this season.

Its impossible to say how some of the youth would have performed under AVB - but then again who (apart from the dedicated Spurs youth watchers) would have predicted how well Bentaleb would have started under Sherwood before going to the WC with Algeria or Kane scoring 3 in 7 PL games at the end of last season or Mason this season.

'To dare is to do' ? AVB ignored Spurs motto, failed to dare to play youth....and failed overall
AVB gave Carroll & Kane their league debuts and Mason his Spurs debut I think. Carroll made 7 appearances in 12-13 for example. And

But Kane had had loans too including in the EPL with Norwich before Sherwood picked him. The only player to be given a chance without being exposed to the usual loan system was Bentaleb.

Does AVb not get credit for sticking with Townsend over the record signing Lamela for example ? Or preferring Rose to the vastly more experienced cult hero Ekotto ?

It has been our policy to loan out young players long before AVB arrived and continues now.

Mason, Carroll and Smith were all sent on the normal procedural loans, as per our general policy and Mason and Smith struggled to get picked for a poorish french team and a championship team respectively (Smith still isn't getting games at Bournemouth so I wonder how frustrated he feels with Eddie Howe).


Carroll still isn't getting picked regularly for Swansea.

ManU are only playing youngsters due to an incredible injury pile up I believe, lets see which youngsters are playing when they have a fill squad to pick from.

SI, I don't know how old you are, genuinely, but if you think what AVB did was failing you have been blessed to miss much of the last 4 decades of Spurs that I have watched.
 

Spursidol

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AVB gave Carroll & Kane their league debuts and Mason his Spurs debut I think. Carroll made 7 appearances in 12-13 for example. And

But Kane had had loans too including in the EPL with Norwich before Sherwood picked him. The only player to be given a chance without being exposed to the usual loan system was Bentaleb.

Does AVb not get credit for sticking with Townsend over the record signing Lamela for example ? Or preferring Rose to the vastly more experienced cult hero Ekotto ?

It has been our policy to loan out young players long before AVB arrived and continues now.

Mason, Carroll and Smith were all sent on the normal procedural loans, as per our general policy and Mason and Smith struggled to get picked for a poorish french team and a championship team respectively (Smith still isn't getting games at Bournemouth so I wonder how frustrated he feels with Eddie Howe).


Carroll still isn't getting picked regularly for Swansea.

ManU are only playing youngsters due to an incredible injury pile up I believe, lets see which youngsters are playing when they have a fill squad to pick from.

SI, I don't know how old you are, genuinely, but if you think what AVB did was failing you have been blessed to miss much of the last 4 decades of Spurs that I have watched.
I'm not saying that AVB never played youth iots just that he did it too infrequently - fir example we played a game against Carlisle in the League Cup where (I think buit may be wrong) he played Mason, Smith , Obika and a feww others.... but that was very rare. Whilst he can claim to have played PL experienced Rose and Townsend, I can think of nobody that he brought through from the youth set up - yet he should have been known for bringing through about two a year...but is not as he didn't play the kids.

BTW ManU have a very unbalanced squad - lots of great forwards bought in the summer when they needed to buy aqt least one defender and a CM - maybe Van Gaal liked the kids but otherwise trhe kids are getting the chances due to injuries and poor form as often happens.

The reason incidentally I am homing in on AVB's youth policy is that he had lots of youth he could have helped develop both from appearances from the bench (eg EL and domestic cups and fior the best youngsters , PL ) and starts for the most impressive youngsters. However he did not - and he had the best group of youngsters that any Spurs manager has had the opportunity to pick for...well forever...I really cannot recall when Spurs had any group of youngsters as good, certainly over the last 20 years.
 
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I'm not saying that AVB never played youth iots just that he did it too infrequently - fir example we played a game against Carlisle in the League Cup where (I think buit may be wrong) he played Mason, Smith , Obika and a feww others.... but that was very rare. Whilst he can claim to have played PL experienced Rose and Townsend, I can think of nobody that he brought through from the youth set up - yet he should have been known for bringing through about two a year...but is not as he didn't play the kids.

BTW ManU have a very unbalanced squad - lots of great forwards bought in the summer when they needed to buy aqt least one defender and a CM - maybe Van Gaal liked the kids but otherwise trhe kids are getting the chances due to injuries and poor form as often happens.

The reason incidentally I am homing in on AVB's youth policy is that he had lots of youth he could have helped develop both from appearances from the bench (eg EL and domestic cups and fior the best youngsters , PL ) and starts for the most impressive youngsters. However he did not - and he had the best group of youngsters that any Spurs manager has had the opportunity to pick for...well forever...I really cannot recall when Spurs had any group of youngsters as good, certainly over the last 20 years.

Personally I hold Levy first to blame on this issue. If we want to foster a culture that encourages head coach's to integrate youth products it's no good paying lip service to it publicly, then putting ridiculously unrealistic expectations on the coach and sanctioning the signing of average journey men like Dempsey. It sends a completely contradictory and confused message.

We must show tolerance for a coach if he's going to be expected to introduce more than the odd academy player, especially if they have had no EPL/Championship loan experience. These players would hardly have played in front of crowds.

I also don't think Sherwood was conducive to fostering this ethos either - within the set up. He rubs people up the wrong way. And many of the loans have been poorly thought out whilst on his watch. Considering he was former Technical director and supposed champion of the youth system he only introduced one academy player without previous EPL loan experience and he also dropped him for a long period after that, again, possibly because he was trying to win games in the forlorn hope of keeping the job.

I really think it;'s harsh not to give AVB credit for giving regular places to Townsend and Rose despite having alternative, record signing and experienced options respectively. So what if they'd had loans already, most academy players that will play for us will have, it's a very common policy to send them out on loan (and that goes for most top EPL clubs).
 

Spursidol

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Personally I hold Levy first to blame on this issue. If we want to foster a culture that encourages head coach's to integrate youth products it's no good paying lip service to it publicly, then putting ridiculously unrealistic expectations on the coach and sanctioning the signing of average journey men like Dempsey. It sends a completely contradictory and confused message.

We must show tolerance for a coach if he's going to be expected to introduce more than the odd academy player, especially if they have had no EPL/Championship loan experience. These players would hardly have played in front of crowds.

I also don't think Sherwood was conducive to fostering this ethos either - within the set up. He rubs people up the wrong way. And many of the loans have been poorly thought out whilst on his watch. Considering he was former Technical director and supposed champion of the youth system he only introduced one academy player without previous EPL loan experience and he also dropped him for a long period after that, again, possibly because he was trying to win games in the forlorn hope of keeping the job.

I really think it;'s harsh not to give AVB credit for giving regular places to Townsend and Rose despite having alternative, record signing and experienced options respectively. So what if they'd had loans already, most academy players that will play for us will have, it's a very common policy to send them out on loan (and that goes for most top EPL clubs).
Blame Levy for footballing decisions ? Ah well he's a convenient scapegoat. I asume you blame Ferdinand at QPR for allowing Rednapp for spending too much money on players and wages as well I assume.

As I've said, given AVB's reticence to play youth, the only fig leaf he could hold up was playing Rose and Townsend who had a full season and a half season of PL football behind them. Otherwise AVB might have gone after one season. 20/20 hindsight of course - that might have been a better outcome for Spurs had AVB gone in Summer 2013 and not influenced the purchases of the famous 7
 
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