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Ratings vs Chelsea

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Chiiriches

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Fazio

    Votes: 15 5.8%
  • Verts

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Davies

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Bentaleb

    Votes: 151 58.8%
  • Mason

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Lennon

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 6 2.3%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 65 25.3%
  • Paulinho

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Chadli

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Soldado

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 11 4.3%

  • Total voters
    257

jonathanhotspur

Loose Cannon
Jun 28, 2009
10,292
8,250
We need to stop comparing everyone to Bale.

Bale is a freak example of a player who's 'output' drastically changed within the space of a couple of years.

However, there are plenty of talented footballers whos careers end up going down the toilet somewhat, and Lamela is arguably more likely to fall into this category then becoming another Bale.
Exactly. We might be better served by using Giovani dos Santos as an example-talented player for whom it just did not work out here for one reason or another.

And does anyone here know where Christian Eriksen is from?
Middelfart
 

jonathanhotspur

Loose Cannon
Jun 28, 2009
10,292
8,250
Huh? That post doesn't make any sense I'm afraid. I used stats to refute the idea that he's not contributed, and to challenge your agreement with the suggestion that he's contributed the same amount as Townsend (nothing), which is not true. Whether you think he's contributed enough is a different matter. I didn't bring up the idea of comparing him with Lennon and Townsend, I just corrected the point that he's produced more than the pair of them combined.



Not bothered really JH. Haven't seen it have a massively adverse effect on his (or any other players for that matter) game.

Are we really devolving down to picking on which foot he favours? Does this subject matter that much? Or are we all just a bit bored on a Friday waiting for the game tomorrow?
Not bothered, Bobbins? It's killing his and our game.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,362
43,015
Huh? That post doesn't make any sense I'm afraid. I used stats to refute the idea that he's not contributed, and to challenge your agreement with the suggestion that he's contributed the same amount as Townsend (nothing), which is not true. Whether you think he's contributed enough is a different matter. I didn't bring up the idea of comparing him with Lennon and Townsend, I just corrected the point that he's produced more than the pair of them combined.



Not bothered really JH. Haven't seen it have a massively adverse effect on his (or any other players for that matter) game.

Are we really devolving down to picking on which foot he favours? Does this subject matter that much? Or are we all just a bit bored on a Friday waiting for the game tomorrow?
But you haven't used any stats, yet cited them as reasons to why Lamela is contributing - that's the point!
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
Lamela is a bit of a flat track bully, at this point. He's doing an effective enough job against piss-poor cup teams, which I'm not complaining about because its good to have someone who can do this. PL is a different story though, even his decent-ish looking 4 assists are made up of two goals from corners, and the one vs. Arsenal where Eriksen did the vital part of robbing the ball back 30 yards from their goal and creating the opportunity.

I don't know where, if you select him, you get the best out of him tbh. He isn't ready to play as a No.10 in my opinion and be the fulcrum, but I don't think he is all that suited to playing from the right hand side. I think the latter is probably where I would stick him for now, in order to get more minutes under his belt and hope he continues to adapt.
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
But you haven't used any stats, yet cited them as reasons to why Lamela is contributing - that's the point!

*sigh*

Ok, if you really need me to write it down, Lennon currently has two assists no goals, Townsend has one assist and no goals, and Lamela has four assists and no goals.

How could you not know that already though? I wasn't expecting to actually have to write it down. You normally know your stuff.

For comparison and to compare as we said with Lamela over a similar period of time, last season Lennon got one goal and five assists, Townsend got one goal (the cross against Villa) and one assist. I'm pretty confident Lamela this season will end up with more than two goals and six assists in total.
 
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Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
Not bothered, Bobbins? It's killing his and our game.

Nah not bothered mate. I don't think his game or ours is being killed.

I'm really not seeing these catastrophically bad performances/devastating effect on the team others seem to be.

I'm just seeing a young player with a lot of ability trying to find his way in a tough new league, and so far doing a half-decent job of it after a handful of games, whilst making up for it with some very good performances against lesser sides in the cups, which is pretty damn useful.

If we're still talking about him in these terms this time next season, then I'd be a bit more concerned. Although quite frankly I'd still almost certainly be pointing out his age and saying we should give him time. It's his obvious unrefined talent which makes me feel that way.

It might sound strange to others but we're not fighting for the top 4, we're not in a relegation battle, we're not scrapping for every point. The league, whilst important, won't hold any great rewards or punishments for us this season (I'd like to win a cup more than anything this year). Therefore I'm much more relaxed about letting a player have some leeway and time in adapting to the league when he's got huge potential, even if it might cost us the odd point here or there.

Ultimately, that's the same view I take with the manager. This season isn't the one to start getting worried about. This season is the one for everyone at the club to try and start building a decent foundation for the future.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
The problem with Lamela is that we are playing 4-2-3-1, which puts him deep behind the striker when played from the right. If we played 4-3-3 there would be an extra man in midfield who could cover across to the the right side. With that Lamela could move higher up the pitch and play off of the striker where his excellent movement would be a threat. He does have great vision, delivery and finishing as well but I think that part of the game isn't coming off for him at the moment, it's more of a form issue that an ability one though.

Sadly no **** in charge will play 4-3-3, purely out of spite to me so this whole comment is a waste of time really.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,362
43,015
*sigh*

Ok, if you really need me to write it down, Lennon currently has two assists no goals, Townsend has one assist and no goals, and Lamela has four assists and no goals.

How could you not know that already though? I wasn't expecting to actually have to write it down.

For comparison and to compare as we said with Lamela over a similar period of time, last season Lennon got one goal and five assists, Townsend got one goal (the cross against Villa) and one assist. I'm pretty confident Lamela this season will end up with more than two goals and six assists in total.
You're correct, i'm fully aware of the stats but the pertinent part in it all is whether those stats give much credence as to why we should persevere with Lamela or not.

To reiterate, the comparison should not be to Tweedle Dumb & Tweedle Dumber but to Eriksen and Chadli - both have similar remits in what to bring to our team and a greater gauge as to Lamela's deemed output - or comparable lack of.
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
You're correct, i'm fully aware of the stats but the pertinent part in it all is whether those stats give much credence as to why we should persevere with Lamela or not.

To reiterate, the comparison should not be to Tweedle Dumb & Tweedle Dumber but to Eriksen and Chadli - both have similar remits in what to bring to our team and a greater gauge as to Lamela's deemed output - or comparable lack of.

I don't agree, I think the comparison should be with those players who would otherwise be playing in Lamela's position, in his place were he to be dropped. This is surely ultimately a discussion about whether he should be playing or not?

Why compare him with players he plays alongside, and not instead of? You wouldn't compare Vertonghen's stats to Dembele's.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
Lamela is a bit of a flat track bully, at this point. He's doing an effective enough job against piss-poor cup teams, which I'm not complaining about because its good to have someone who can do this. PL is a different story though, even his decent-ish looking 4 assists are made up of two goals from corners, and the one vs. Arsenal where Eriksen did the vital part of robbing the ball back 30 yards from their goal and creating the opportunity.
I don't know where, if you select him, you get the best out of him tbh. He isn't ready to play as a No.10 in my opinion and be the fulcrum, but I don't think he is all that suited to playing from the right hand side. I think the latter is probably where I would stick him for now, in order to get more minutes under his belt and hope he continues to adapt.

And if you want a real flat track bully, Townsend is your man. Who in our squad is actually stepping up to the plate then and delivering against the big boys? Because as far as I remember for the last year watching games against the big teams has generally been an exercise in sadomasochism with no one scoring goals. Maybe Eriksen could be the only player you'd point to and say he will score against anyone regardless of their ability. Not many others.
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
The problem with Lamela is that we are playing 4-2-3-1, which puts him deep behind the striker when played from the right. If we played 4-3-3 there would be an extra man in midfield who could cover across to the the right side. With that Lamela could move higher up the pitch and play off of the striker where his excellent movement would be a threat. He does have great vision, delivery and finishing as well but I think that part of the game isn't coming off for him at the moment, it's more of a form issue that an ability one though.

Sadly no **** in charge will play 4-3-3, purely out of spite to me so this whole comment is a waste of time really.

Really, REALLY wish we would move to a flexible 4-3-3 long term. It's funny that it's what AVB used, then dropped it, it's what Sherwood ingrained into the entire youth structure at Spurs, then dropped it, and it's what Poch played at Southampton, then dropped it.

It's like they're deliberately mugging us off! It's not like we don't have the players for it.
 

CowInAComa

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
7,293
18,237
if we get rid of Lamela, I think 2-3 years down the line we are gonna look fucking stupid.

If he puts on a stone and improves his decision making ability. (shall i do another roll over the ball, no) he will be awesome.
 

thinktank

Hmmm...
Sep 28, 2004
45,893
68,893
Really, REALLY wish we would move to a flexible 4-3-3 long term. It's funny that it's what AVB used, then dropped it, it's what Sherwood ingrained into the entire youth structure at Spurs, then dropped it, and it's what Poch played at Southampton, then dropped it.

It's like they're deliberately mugging us off! It's not like we don't have the players for it.
When you see a real poch 4231 in full flow it's not rigid though, mate. It's a thing of dynamic beauty. I think people will be loving 4231 next season. All thoughts of 433 will fade away.

Chelsea used to play 433 and I bet their fans had the same anxiety about changing over to 4231, so there you go.
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
And if you want a real flat track bully, Townsend is your man. Who in our squad is actually stepping up to the plate then and delivering against the big boys? Because as far as I remember for the last year watching games against the big teams has generally been an exercise in sadomasochism with no one scoring goals. Maybe Eriksen could be the only player you'd point to and say he will score against anyone regardless of their ability. Not many others.

I don't think Townsend is the best example of that, he is erratic no matter what...

That is a good point, though I think Lamela is someone who is an obvious one who fluctuates massively between Cup games and then struggles in the PL ones. Eriksen I think goes missing in big games quite a lot, but has at least shown something in the PL.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,362
43,015
I don't agree, I think the comparison should be with those players who would otherwise be playing in Lamela's position, in his place were he to be dropped. This is surely ultimately a discussion about whether he should be playing or not?

Why compare him with players he plays alongside, and not instead of? You wouldn't compare Vertonghen's stats to Dembele's.
Clearly not.

Considering all three have similar roles to play and were brought in at the same time, I think the comparison is extremely valid because all three can occupy the same position.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
Really, REALLY wish we would move to a flexible 4-3-3 long term. It's funny that it's what AVB used, then dropped it, it's what Sherwood ingrained into the entire youth structure at Spurs, then dropped it, and it's what Poch played at Southampton, then dropped it.

It's like they're deliberately mugging us off! It's not like we don't have the players for it.

I've been screaming this ever since January of AVB's first season in charge. We've never had the players to produce good attacking team football in a 4-2-3-1 since then but it has been continually been persisted with. At our core a 3 man midfield would have enhanced the strengths of our midfielders and completely mitigated their weaknesses. 2 man midfield always left us short in one aspect or another; passing, tackling, penetration etc.

I only ever remember AVB doing 4-3-3 once and that was when we carved city up. Hudd came on as the quarterback, Holtby and Dembele(?) in front of him. Defoe up front, Bale running off him from wide. It was fucking beautiful. Never played it again.

Didn't Poch play the same at Southampton what he's playing here though? I thought it was a misnomer he was using 4-3-3
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
Clearly not.

Considering all three have similar roles to play and were brought in at the same time, I think the comparison is extremely valid because all three can occupy the same position.

"Can" but "don't" is the important thing in terms of comparison I think.

Again, you wouldn't compare Vertonghen's stats to Dier's this season, as they've been playing in different positions, even though they are both CB's.

I wonder if Lamela was allowed to take the vast majority of free kicks as Eriksen has done if he would have had a few more goals?
 

Bobbins

SC's 14th Sexiest Male 2008
May 5, 2005
21,548
45,031
I've been screaming this ever since January of AVB's first season in charge. We've never had the players to produce good attacking team football in a 4-2-3-1 since then but it has been continually been persisted with. At our core a 3 man midfield would have enhanced the strengths of our midfielders and completely mitigated their weaknesses. 2 man midfield always left us short in one aspect or another; passing, tackling, penetration etc.

I only ever remember AVB doing 4-3-3 once and that was when we carved city up. Hudd came on as the quarterback, Holtby and Dembele(?) in front of him. Defoe up front, Bale running off him from wide. It was fucking beautiful. Never played it again.

Didn't Poch play the same at Southampton what he's playing here though? I thought it was a misnomer he was using 4-3-3

Blimey you must have a sore throat.

Agree with all of that.

I thought Poch was playing 4-3-3 with Lambert up front, Rodriguez wide left, Lallana wide right or tip of the midfield 3? Might be wrong.
 

idontgetit

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2011
14,404
30,804
I don't think Townsend is the best example of that, he is erratic no matter what...

That is a good point, though I think Lamela is someone who is an obvious one who fluctuates massively between Cup games and then struggles in the PL ones. Eriksen I think goes missing in big games quite a lot, but has at least shown something in the PL.

I get your point but yeah with Townsend I think he is actually the definition of flat track bully. It's not really such a bad thing either, fancy playing teams need someone like that. When you get a shit or weakened side in front of you sometimes you need someone to be fast and direct, rather than someone who tries to pass the ball in to the net. Him coming on against Villa when they went a man down was a good example of that.

I reckon Lamela's main problem is the pace of the prem. He's got to practice rushing himself in training, even if it is detrimental to his game for a bit. Really over-do it to push his natural instincts in the right direction. He has everything, he just needs to be sharper getting a shot off, making the pass, making the run. I think it will come, he's just got to hold his confidence and really analyse his game a bit
 
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