Ratings vs Chelsea

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Chiiriches

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Fazio

    Votes: 15 5.8%
  • Verts

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Davies

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Bentaleb

    Votes: 151 58.8%
  • Mason

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Lennon

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 6 2.3%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 65 25.3%
  • Paulinho

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Chadli

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Soldado

    Votes: 2 0.8%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 11 4.3%

  • Total voters
    257

mpickard2087

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Didn't Poch play the same at Southampton what he's playing here though? I thought it was a misnomer he was using 4-3-3
Soton settled on playing a 4-2-3-1, but it was a bit of a lopsided one. The right sided player (mostly Ward-Prowse when I watched them) often played very narrow/not as advanced and so kind of made a midfield three. It looked roughly like:



But Lallana has good movement across the field in between the lines so often popped up on the right or the left, which means at times it could easily morph into a 4-3-3.
 
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I've been screaming this ever since January of AVB's first season in charge. We've never had the players to produce good attacking team football in a 4-2-3-1 since then but it has been continually been persisted with. At our core a 3 man midfield would have enhanced the strengths of our midfielders and completely mitigated their weaknesses. 2 man midfield always left us short in one aspect or another; passing, tackling, penetration etc.

I only ever remember AVB doing 4-3-3 once and that was when we carved city up. Hudd came on as the quarterback, Holtby and Dembele(?) in front of him. Defoe up front, Bale running off him from wide. It was fucking beautiful. Never played it again.

Didn't Poch play the same at Southampton what he's playing here though? I thought it was a misnomer he was using 4-3-3
Yes, 4231. But if you watch southampton play last season you begin to see that that shape is almost a template and you can work many fluid transitional shapes within/around it within a game and adjust your shape for attack and defence fluidly.

AVB's version was way too rigid and that has scarred our view of it.
 

Blake Griffin

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I don't agree, I think the comparison should be with those players who would otherwise be playing in Lamela's position, in his place were he to be dropped. This is surely ultimately a discussion about whether he should be playing or not?

Why compare him with players he plays alongside, and not instead of? You wouldn't compare Vertonghen's stats to Dembele's.
you're implying that lamela compares favourably to lennon when it comes to production but that's not statistically true, is it? not in the here and now. lennon also brings intangibles to the team that whoscored can't measure, he opens the game up for those around him and looks to be on the same wavelength as his teammates, i can't say the same for lamela.
 

Bus-Conductor

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Hugely subjective BC.

Lamela, IMHO, is producing no more as an attacker than Dembele is as a midfielder, ergo, both wouldn't be missed if not selected in the starting line up right this minute.
No not hugely subjective. Partially subjective (I think he's working harder, actually trying to press and tackle people and generally being more adventurous and creative) but supported by facts - he does see more of the ball, he does make more key passes and he does have more assists than anyone in our team.
 

felmani26

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you're implying that lamela compares favourably to lennon when it comes to production but that's not statistically true, is it? not in the here and now. lennon also brings intangibles to the team that whoscored can't measure, he opens the game up for those around him and looks to be on the same wavelength as his teammates, i can't say the same for lamela.
I do hate advocating Lennon's inclusion but you are correct and what's pertinent is how the opposition look to counter the threat of Lennon as he does carry the intent of skinning the fullback on the outside and getting to the byline which in turn opens up space centrally.

Lamela, at this stage is predictable and if Eriksen is deployed left then it's far too easy to funnel all our attacks centrally and relatively simple for the opposition to nullify - especially at home.
 

Spursidol

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Extensive?

How much coaching does it take to take him to one side for 5 minutes every day in training and say:

- Try and look for an earlier pass when the opportunity's there
- Keep your head up a bit more and try and avoid running down a blind alley a couple of times each game
- When defending, focus more on covering the attacker goal-side rather than always commiting to winning the ball which is risky
- We need you to be a little bit more disciplined in general - express yourself, but aim to only do it when it won't put us at too much risk defensively

There you go, I've just single-handedly coached Lamela's biggest faults out of his game. Let me at 'im!

By the end of the season I'm confident we'll see him much improved as he's adapted to the league - he's already our top assister this season and according to some on here he's apparently struggling. Not what I see.

So if it takes 5 minutes a day - and Poch is a decent coach so he will have already started coaching Lamela in these difficult tasks, why do we not see any imporovement ?

Are you suggesting that Lamela is not listening to the coach ?
 

felmani26

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No not hugely subjective. Partially subjective (I think he's working harder, actually trying to press and tackle people and generally being more adventurous and creative) but supported by facts - he does see more of the ball, he does make more key passes and he does have more assists than anyone in our team.
What about goals scored, or is that not a relevant stat in this argument?
 

Spursidol

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Huh? That post doesn't make any sense I'm afraid. I used stats to refute the idea that he's not contributed, and to challenge your agreement with the suggestion that he's contributed the same amount as Townsend (nothing), which is not true. Whether you think he's contributed enough is a different matter. I didn't bring up the idea of comparing him with Lennon and Townsend, I just corrected the point that he's produced more than the pair of them combined.



Not bothered really JH. Haven't seen it have a massively adverse effect on his (or any other players for that matter) game.

Are we really devolving down to picking on which foot he favours? Does this subject matter that much? Or are we all just a bit bored on a Friday waiting for the game tomorrow?
So for an attacking player - he played as a right sided auxiullary striker at Roma - would you have expected him to have scvored a goal in the PL yet ? If not why not ?

Harry Kane has had far fewer starts in PL, is far less experienced, and has scored twice in PL generally played as a no 10 (an AM iin other words) to put that into perrsceptive.

I'm glad that Lamela has got off the mark in EL/cup games - but these have been against much lower class opponents of course. So with no goals in a dozen PL games it is time that he upped his game so that he can have goals amongst his contributions, and hopefully less 'loss of ball' leading to Spurs conceding goals. That's what I would expect with a £30m (or £25m) player

The selection of Lamela's foot is vey relevant - he appears to be totally one footed which limits what he can do (except with a party trick Rabona which takes longer to shoot so less valuable in the faster pace PL). It is noteworthy by comparison that very few of the Spurs Academy players come out being one footed - they are forced to practice with their 'wrong' foot so as to come out better players, albeit they may have a stronger foot but they are not like Lamela,
 

Bus-Conductor

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i don't particularly care about the fee, i thought it was there or thereabouts for a player of that age and rep. i care about how he's performing and progressing for thfc and it seems your strongest defence of him is to compare him to two players you think are rubbish. by and large he's been pretty pants in the league and is actually regressing if anything, you can console yourself by telling everyone he's better than lennon and townsend, or how he has four assists(which are probably negated by goals he's actually cost us, arsenal? man city?), or how many times he touches the ball, or his pass completion percentage, all of which actually make your argument look weaker. he still has time but excuses can't keep being made for him, at some point he needs to start showing signs that he's beginning to get it.
No, a very valid part of my defence of him is to point out he's providing - quantifiable things - more than two players he's competing with for a place.

I don't agree that he's been pants at all. I think the problem is the perception that his price tag put on the expectation of most fans. If he'd come through our youth ranks and has just made his first dozen appearances everyone would be saying way a great prospect he looks.

How many times he touches the ball, how many assists he gets (because both Lennon/Chelsea and Townsend/Liverpool have also cost us goals but haven't seen as much ball or got as many assists) are, you know, real things. They are valid parts of an argument that includes other aspects of his game like the fact that he works hard off the ball, makes actual tackles.

We make excuses for players all the time. Lennon for 9 years. Bale for 4 or 5. He's talented, his fast, he scares defenders sometimes, but he's inconsistent, his decision making is inconsistent, he's lazy off the ball, Why has Lamela's use by date started to expire after 14 starts or so ?

It's not like I haven't criticised facets of his game. His decision making needs to improve (so does Kane's, Mason's and most of our players) But it isn't that black or white is it ? All our players are flawed or incomplete.

As long as Lamela is proving more valuable to the team than the other viable options he should play. That is the bottom line. IMO he is most weeks.
 

Bobbins

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So if it takes 5 minutes a day - and Poch is a decent coach so he will have already started coaching Lamela in these difficult tasks, why do we not see any imporovement ?

Are you suggesting that Lamela is not listening to the coach ?
No?

So for an attacking player - he played as a right sided auxiullary striker at Roma - would you have expected him to have scvored a goal in the PL yet ? If not why not ?

Harry Kane has had far fewer starts in PL, is far less experienced, and has scored twice in PL generally played as a no 10 (an AM iin other words) to put that into perrsceptive.

I'm glad that Lamela has got off the mark in EL/cup games - but these have been against much lower class opponents of course. So with no goals in a dozen PL games it is time that he upped his game so that he can have goals amongst his contributions, and hopefully less 'loss of ball' leading to Spurs conceding goals. That's what I would expect with a £30m (or £25m) player

The selection of Lamela's foot is vey relevant - he appears to be totally one footed which limits what he can do (except with a party trick Rabona which takes longer to shoot so less valuable in the faster pace PL). It is noteworthy by comparison that very few of the Spurs Academy players come out being one footed - they are forced to practice with their 'wrong' foot so as to come out better players, albeit they may have a stronger foot but they are not like Lamela,
Erm, I don't know, maybe? I wouldn't expect anything from any player, especially playing in our shambles of a team. I hope players do their best, put in the required effort and in doing so help the team to win games. I couldn't give a flying fish if Lamela never scores another goal for Spurs if he gets 60 assists a season and we win the league. If not why not? I don't really get what you're even trying to say to be honest.

Kane has been playing in English football for his entire career, it's hardly comparable. And he hasn't even remotely been playing as an AM - for a start no-one has ever called a number 10 an AM, that's why it's called a number 10 and not an AM, and second he's regularly our furthest forward attacking player, playing more like a lone striker half the time than a number 10 as many of us would like. And Lamela hasn't been playing as an 'auxiliary striker', whatever that is. He's been playing as a wide forward, which is much more like a winger who just cuts inside a lot. Please don't try and manipulate their games to try and suggest that they play in the same position or have the same objectives/instructions on the pitch.

Ok fine, he doesn't score, only uses his left foot, loses the ball all the time and cost lots of money even though funnily enough he had nothing to do with the size of the fee. Let's just say he's shit and forget about him, get rid at the first opportunity and in fact fuck it let's chop his left foot off so he can't even use it if he wants, the one-footed non-scoring useless twat. Then we won't have to have these endless and pointless debates about which 0.3% marginal he's shit at or which part of the lace he hits the ball with or if his hair is annoying, and keep shouting £30m, even though that's not what he cost, every 5 seconds.

Talk about taking life too seriously - just let the kid play some football and enjoy watching the things he does well. We've got precious little else to excite us in the team at the moment, it's not like he's keeping the next Bale out of the team is it? This incessant criticism and micro-analysis is bordering on the insane.
 

Bus-Conductor

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I don't agree, I think the comparison should be with those players who would otherwise be playing in Lamela's position, in his place were he to be dropped. This is surely ultimately a discussion about whether he should be playing or not?

Why compare him with players he plays alongside, and not instead of? You wouldn't compare Vertonghen's stats to Dembele's.

Amongst all the other debatable shit, I just don't get why this point is causing so much fucking soul searching and angst.
 

Spursidol

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No?



Erm, I don't know, maybe? I wouldn't expect anything from any player, especially playing in our shambles of a team. I hope players do their best, put in the required effort and in doing so help the team to win games. I couldn't give a flying fish if Lamela never scores another goal for Spurs if he gets 60 assists a season and we win the league. If not why not? I don't really get what you're even trying to say to be honest.

Kane has been playing in English football for his entire career, it's hardly comparable. And he hasn't even remotely been playing as an AM - for a start no-one has ever called a number 10 an AM, that's why it's called a number 10 and not an AM, and second he's regularly our furthest forward attacking player, playing more like a lone striker half the time than a number 10 as many of us would like. And Lamela hasn't been playing as an 'auxiliary striker', whatever that is. He's been playing as a wide forward, which is much more like a winger who just cuts inside a lot. Please don't try and manipulate their games to try and suggest that they play in the same position or have the same objectives/instructions on the pitch.

Ok fine, he doesn't score, only uses his left foot, loses the ball all the time and cost lots of money even though funnily enough he had nothing to do with the size of the fee. Let's just say he's shit and forget about him, get rid at the first opportunity and in fact fuck it let's chop his left foot off so he can't even use it if he wants, the one-footed non-scoring useless twat. Then we won't have to have these endless and pointless debates about which 0.3% marginal he's shit at or which part of the lace he hits the ball with or if his hair is annoying, and keep shouting £30m, even though that's not what he cost, every 5 seconds.

Talk about taking life too seriously - just let the kid play some football and enjoy watching the things he does well. We've got precious little else to excite us in the team at the moment, it's not like he's keeping the next Bale out of the team is it? This incessant criticism and micro-analysis is bordering on the insane.
Everybody involved in the game says the step up to the PL is big whether its from the youth teams or lower leagues so Kane has had to make the step up - and he's impressed in his first fulll season. Its a step up from most foreign leagues too. And Lamela is impressinmg far less than Kane I'd suggest. So that comparison is good.

Kane does play as a no 10 - but has played very little in the PL but has scored twice and looked like scoring more and influencing the game a lot. Lamela plays as an AM and might be expected to score in the PL on a regular basis - that's why AM's are played to both create and score. So its a perfectly reasonable comparison - or iof you want to compare Lamela's zero goals to Eriksen's 5 goals be my guest.

Curiously scoring goals wins games, so it is pertinant whether a forward/AM scores in PL as to whether he's a 'top class' player or just some one to play in the cups. And its a bit of a waste if Lamela is only good enough to play in the group stages of EL.

That's why I hope that Lamela kicks on - as otherwise its a Gio dos Santos or other highly rated player from an overseas league that is not a success in PL. And despite te money from Bale, we really cannot afford a £30m (or £25m) flop - whether Lamela or other big hits such as Paulhino. And that's why it matters - and why we are analysing Lamela's contribution. Its squeeky bum time for some
 

Bus-Conductor

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What about goals scored, or is that not a relevant stat in this argument?
Yeah, but Lennon and Townsend haven't scored any either. And here's some more stats, just for the record:

He makes the second most key passes per game (1.7 - Eriksen 2.0) so far this season in our team.

He sees more of the ball per game than Lennon and Townsend put together.

He makes the same tackles per game as Lennon and Townsend put together.

More interceptions per game than Lennon and Townsend put together.



And I've been arguing his worth over the other options without stats. I can see he's contributing more to our team just by watching him. But those stats support what I think I'm seeing.
 

Spursidol

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Disagree. We've looked very hit and miss until Sunday, so its not surprising a lot of them, individually, havn't looked great.
Yup, but you would hope the £30m players would help lead us to a better standard of team play. However at the moment it seems to be the Spurs developed Kane, Bentaleb and Mason with the less expensive Eriksen et al
 

Bobbins

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Everybody involved in the game says the step up to the PL is big whether its from the youth teams or lower leagues so Kane has had to make the step up - and he's impressed in his first fulll season. Its a step up from most foreign leagues too. And Lamela is impressinmg far less than Kane I'd suggest. So that comparison is good.

Kane does play as a no 10 - but has played very little in the PL but has scored twice and looked like scoring more and influencing the game a lot. Lamela plays as an AM and might be expected to score in the PL on a regular basis - that's why AM's are played to both create and score. So its a perfectly reasonable comparison - or iof you want to compare Lamela's zero goals to Eriksen's 5 goals be my guest.

Curiously scoring goals wins games, so it is pertinant whether a forward/AM scores in PL as to whether he's a 'top class' player or just some one to play in the cups. And its a bit of a waste if Lamela is only good enough to play in the group stages of EL.

That's why I hope that Lamela kicks on - as otherwise its a Gio dos Santos or other highly rated player from an overseas league that is not a success in PL. And despite te money from Bale, we really cannot afford a £30m (or £25m) flop - whether Lamela or other big hits such as Paulhino. And that's why it matters - and why we are analysing Lamela's contribution. Its squeeky bum time for some
Obviously Kane's done well, I'm one of his biggest supporters. It's got no relevance whatsoever to Lamela and his success or lack of though, no matter how much you try to make it seem so. They do not play in the same position, they do not have the same background, they are not the same type of player. Why are you even starting out by comparing Kane and Lamela?

This is getting silly, but 'for balance' it's not remotely pertinant whether an AM scores goals if he creates goals for others. As I already said. If he gets 20 assists are you going to start moaning that he didn't score? Or would you only be happy if he got ten goals and ten assists, despite it being the same result?

It's not squeeky bum time. It's 14 games time. It doesn't matter what foot he uses. It doesn't matter whether he hits 74.2% of his shots with the inside of the boot. All that matters is if he has a positive effect on the team, helps us to win games, and ultimately that he produces more than the alternatives for his position. Which so far he has been doing. All the tiny pointless stuff is just that - pointless, for anyone outside Poch and his coaching staff.

I cannot believe you care this much.
 
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