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Match Ratings Ratings vs Chelsea

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Trippier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 30 7.4%
  • Verts

    Votes: 23 5.7%
  • Davies

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Dier

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 23 5.7%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 192 47.2%
  • Dele

    Votes: 117 28.7%
  • Son

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kane

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wanyama

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Sissoko

    Votes: 3 0.7%
  • Poch

    Votes: 6 1.5%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 6 1.5%

  • Total voters
    407

JonnySpurs

SC Veteran
Jun 4, 2004
5,345
12,398
Gotta be honest, and I do hate that I sound like I'm coming after him in recent weeks, but Hugo is getting away with his performance a little bit. He made one solid save from Alonso before they scored but his mistake that led to their goal was criminal imo. His attempt at a punch prevented Sanchez from likely getting his head to flick the ball away from Morata and whilst Chelsea were in the ascendancy when they scored, our defence was doing a good job of keeping them out.

Lloris has made 4 mistakes this season directly leading to goals (as defined by Opta), 2 against Chelsea, 1 of which cost us a point at home early on in the season. Only Cech and Begovic have been worse in this category (FYI - I stole this stat from an article on F365).

Hugo has been brilliant for us over the years but in my opinion we need to start thinking about a genuine replacement. Someone that can come in and put some real pressure on and ultimately replace him. I don't feel anywhere near as confident in him as I used to, maybe that's just me but I don't believe that he's as good as he once was.
 

Flashspur

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2012
6,882
9,068
Ah, the old "positional" nonsense. Otherwise known as the "Huddlestone Hypothesis".

Like standing around waiting for the ball to arrive is more useful than pro-actively reading and hunting it down, cohesively and catching the opponent before they get parked.

Even if this was the asset you say it is, Dier didn't even do that well yesterday, especially first half where Chelsea continually broke through our midfield and had overloads on our defenders.

But there is so much more to playing the CM2 system than just "positioning", and all those other things Dier just does not excel at. His passing is perfunctory, and gets worse when under pressure, he can't move with the ball at all, can't play under pressure. A couple of times a season when given acres of space he'll hit a nice long ranger, but playing CM is far more about hitting 10 short incisive passes a game than a couple of rangers a year. It's about setting tempo, not reacting to the opponents tempo.

I think anyone who could watch the first half of games like yesterday, or the first half of Liverpool away, or Juve away or even England against Italy,where in all games those teams have run rings round him in phases of the game would be mad to call Dier sensational, it's just utter bias, and when Phil Jones played a similar role for Utd and England I don't remember you or anyone calling it sensational.

And I think when Poch was preferring Wnayama last season we were challenging for a title, and this year with Dier, we're miles away from it and part of the reason is because there is nothing Dier does better than Wanyama, except that long range pass once in a blue moon.

Man that is wrong on so many levels :D
 
D

Deleted member 29446

Gotta be honest, and I do hate that I sound like I'm coming after him in recent weeks, but Hugo is getting away with his performance a little bit. He made one solid save from Alonso before they scored but his mistake that led to their goal was criminal imo. His attempt at a punch prevented Sanchez from likely getting his head to flick the ball away from Morata and whilst Chelsea were in the ascendancy when they scored, our defence was doing a good job of keeping them out.

Lloris has made 4 mistakes this season directly leading to goals (as defined by Opta), 2 against Chelsea, 1 of which cost us a point at home early on in the season. Only Cech and Begovic have been worse in this category (FYI - I stole this stat from an article on F365).

Hugo has been brilliant for us over the years but in my opinion we need to start thinking about a genuine replacement. Someone that can come in and put some real pressure on and ultimately replace him. I don't feel anywhere near as confident in him as I used to, maybe that's just me but I don't believe that he's as good as he once was.

Agree 100%. And I got slammed by saying something like this - but it's true. I dont think Vorm/Gazzaniga is the solution, but a keeper who can stop making so many mistakes and actually kick a football would do us good the way we play.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
Agree 100%. And I got slammed by saying something like this - but it's true. I dont think Vorm/Gazzaniga is the solution, but a keeper who can stop making so many mistakes and actually kick a football would do us good the way we play.

As I mentioned before we're not gonna find a keeper better than Hugo so replacing him with someone better is just wishful thinking.
 

stevenqoz

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2006
2,776
553
Verts was so strong....I believe that having a keeper as captain is a mistake and this bloke is the closest thing we have to a captain ATM. Thought Dembele had a rapid fade out after 70 minutes and was surprised they replaced Dier instead of him. Would like to see Trippier bomb toward the touchline more often because he is generally and effective crosser of the ball. Sanchez had a good game and showed the pragmatism we need sometimes need by giving it an occasional whoosh away. Davies had a poor first half by recent standards. Dele scored that goal again....first time we have seen it for a while. Eriksen is just special and entirely meant it. Lamella was generally busy and has an edge to his game that I like. Kane coming on was a sign of what he is willing to give to the club. Great to see Poch come away from this one with the points
 

glospur

Well-Known Member
May 19, 2015
2,608
9,806
Gotta be honest, and I do hate that I sound like I'm coming after him in recent weeks, but Hugo is getting away with his performance a little bit. He made one solid save from Alonso before they scored but his mistake that led to their goal was criminal imo. His attempt at a punch prevented Sanchez from likely getting his head to flick the ball away from Morata and whilst Chelsea were in the ascendancy when they scored, our defence was doing a good job of keeping them out.

Lloris has made 4 mistakes this season directly leading to goals (as defined by Opta), 2 against Chelsea, 1 of which cost us a point at home early on in the season. Only Cech and Begovic have been worse in this category (FYI - I stole this stat from an article on F365).

Hugo has been brilliant for us over the years but in my opinion we need to start thinking about a genuine replacement. Someone that can come in and put some real pressure on and ultimately replace him. I don't feel anywhere near as confident in him as I used to, maybe that's just me but I don't believe that he's as good as he once was.
I disagree with pretty much all of your first paragraph. He had to come, but he obviously misjudged and didn't get there. If he stayed on his line he wouldn't have got there anyway. And I disagree that he affected Sanchez. Sanchez was too loose in his marking regardless of whether Lloris came or not. He wasn't tight enough and Morata would have scored regardless. If Sanchez was put off, why wasn't Morata? I'm not buyign that as an excuse for Sanchez. Both are as culpable as each other on that one imo.

Hugo also made a couple of nice saves from deflected shots, and his kicking deficiencies is massively overstated. It only looks worse because we pretty much have a play out from the back on all occasions policy. The likes of De Gea and Courtois would be no better than Hugo if this respect if they played in our system.

It's always funny that him making the odd mistake gets wheeled out all the time, yet when he's regularly brilliant it's hardly ever mentioned by the same people. You can't have it both ways. There is not a single GK we could buy that is better than him.
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
4,652
5,738
Man that is wrong on so many levels :D
I agree, but it is reported today that Jesus was shouting at Dier in the first half, which he did not appreciate. And he was subbed off late in the second. So there is a case for a different viewpoint.

Of course coaches have set roles for each player, and can get irate if they are so much as a few feet from where they were they are supposed to be, leading to ridiculous situations of coaches having a fit when a player scores when he wasn't meant to. (Redknapp on Sandro when he scored from distance.)

Some might dismiss his long range pass to Alli for the goal, but the strikers know Dier can see these runs and know he will try the pass. So they make the runs.
No, he is not going to bend it into their path like Hoddle did.
When Hod gets back to full fitness, I'll be the first to demand Dier makes way.
 

the watson

COYSC
Apr 21, 2007
558
745
Hugo also made a couple of nice saves from deflected shots, and his kicking deficiencies is massively overstated. It only looks worse because we pretty much have a play out from the back on all occasions policy. The likes of De Gea and Courtois would be no better than Hugo if this respect if they played in our system.

I'd go even further than that and say Hugo's distribution has massively improved this season and we look way more assured bringing the ball out from defence (Sanchez has helped this too).

Our defence has conceded just 6 goals in 11 games in 2018 (least conceded in the league)... It's not an area that requires improving whatsoever.
 

JonnySpurs

SC Veteran
Jun 4, 2004
5,345
12,398
I disagree with pretty much all of your first paragraph. He had to come, but he obviously misjudged and didn't get there. If he stayed on his line he wouldn't have got there anyway. And I disagree that he affected Sanchez. Sanchez was too loose in his marking regardless of whether Lloris came or not. He wasn't tight enough and Morata would have scored regardless. If Sanchez was put off, why wasn't Morata? I'm not buyign that as an excuse for Sanchez. Both are as culpable as each other on that one imo.

I dont mind if you agree or not, BC also mentioned in his ratings post that he was watching MOTD2 when he saw the footage of Hugo punching over the top of Sanchez's head, making him duck his head down. Go back and watch it and you'll see. I agree that Hugo should potentially come for the ball but he's badly misjudged that and I don't expect that from a man of his experience. Also Morata wasn't put off because he's further back, Lloris comes over the top of Sanchez, not Morata.

It's always funny that him making the odd mistake gets wheeled out all the time, yet when he's regularly brilliant it's hardly ever mentioned by the same people. You can't have it both ways. There is not a single GK we could buy that is better than him.

Lloris is like any player in our squad. When he plays well and makes great saves, he gets praise. When he fucks up he gets criticised. Just cos he's our captain and granted, one of the better keepers in the league, that doesn't mean he shouldn't get pulled up when he's poor. He messed up and it's not been the first time this season, that is worth mentioning.

For the record, I also said we should be looking to find someone to come in and challenge for the position and be a long term replacement. I didn't suggest for one second that he should be replaced immediately.
 

Shadydan

Well-Known Member
Jul 7, 2012
38,247
104,143
The problem with judging goalkeepers for making mistakes is that is usually leads to goals, for example Kane misses a 1on1 (like the Juve match) people tend to forget it because it doesn't have a direct consequence on the match, it does however have a consequence because if he scored that it would have given us an advantage in that particular match.

If you want to blame Hugo for the first goal that's fine but at the same time you ought keep the same energy and praise him for getting down to Alonso's shot which was heading in the far corner because that saved kept us in the match, doubtful we would have come back from 2-0 down, but people tend not to remember those saves.

Have always said that keepers get judged unfairly, they shouldn't be judged on errors alone but they should be judged on consistency and their all round game, Hugo is aiding us and our all round game and the way we want to play football far more than he is hindering it.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
You say that but we probably have the 2nd best midfield in the league, if you compare it like you have with our full backs then you can probably make the same argument.

They're not going to be City but then again they have set the bar very high in all positions but despite you having a different ideology of what you want in a midfielder you can't argue with facts and that those members of that midfield has helped carried us to where we are now under Poch.


I can't argue with the fact that Dier has done a competent job for our midfield at times, and won't, but I can argue with how good he is for our team in midfield in comparison to other options we have and other players out there doing similar jobs.

As well as Wanyama here, there are other DM's, such as Fernandinho, Kante who offer the same level of defensive competence whilst also offering more pro-activity, tempo, transitional and creative input to their sides.

It's very hard to statistically represent my argument for the defensive side of his game because things like tackles and interceptions for midfielders and defenders can be relatively meaningless, making lots of either can be as indicative of poor reading of situations as it can good reading. If all we want is someone to do a very limited defensive job then Dier does fine. But I believe we are more than that now, and to move to the next level, we must expect more from a No.6/DM than just shuffling across and dropping back 5 yards and never contributing more pro-actively. Wanyama already does all that and will contribute more pro-actively. Will hunt and instigate transitions, but with no defensive compromise, as we saw all last year.

Dier does not press the ball as well as Wanyama for example, because he's more cumbersome and less dynamic, and the same goes for him in comparison to many of his peers, Fernandinho, Kante, Henderson, Can, younger Matic. Of all the pure DM's (and that's what Dier is) he's the least multi functional. He's meat, but not even much potato, let alone veg.

Statistically, Wanyama, Fernandinho, Kanté, Can, Henderson all provide more key passes, assists, chances and even goals than Dier does, whilst performing primarily defensive midfield remits. Even Xhaka does. Now I'm not saying that all of those players are better in every facet of their make up than Dier, but if you put most of them under Poch, wouldn't they all be at least capable of doing the limited remit Dier performs at least as well ?

Dier rarely steps beyond the other CM, let alone the AM's. Rarely instigates transition, plays an incisive pass that sets a counter in motion. And offers almost nothing incisive or creative to our team (I know we are in a thread for a game where he's played a great through ball, but that's a very rare occurrence, and if he does it's invariably that same type of thing, the long hopeful, never a clever defence splitter). But for me, worse than that, is that he's not a defensive instigator either, he's not a quick reader, not someone who can proactively go pressing the ball and winning it and then starting a transition that catches opponents off set, because that's really not his forte either. That's not to say he's never ever done that, he has, it's just to say that's not his normal MO. He's much more reactive, likes to give himself time and space to see things, does not want to take any risk. And when he does take risk, as we saw on Sunday, it can go horribly wrong.

If you watch the first half of the Chelsea game, Juve away first half, Liverpool away first half, Southampton games, you see a player that struggles enormously under pressure and press. When we are doing our possession thing against a passive bus park, he's ok, but he doesn't want the ball under duress, and if we want to progress even further, that's what we have to be able to do, it's no good just being competent when the pressures off our CM's.

There are few clubs around right now who you could say are vastly superior to our forward group or defensive group, but if you look at the very best teams, they all have a little bit more inspiration from their midfields. Part of the problem isn't just Dier, it's playing Dier with another very risk averse CM like Dembele.

I just think if we want to take the next step, it's the easiest area of this team to improve. A pair of CM's that are defensively adept but who can actually contribute some direction, tempo, impetus and a smidgeon of creativity and productivity to our play as well. Or at least one.
 

Ron Burgundy

SC Supporter
Jun 19, 2008
7,705
23,267
I can't argue with the fact that Dier has done a competent job for our midfield at times, and won't, but I can argue with how good he is for our team in midfield in comparison to other options we have and other players out there doing similar jobs.

As well as Wanyama here, there are other DM's, such as Fernandinho, Kante who offer the same level of defensive competence whilst also offering more pro-activity, tempo, transitional and creative input to their sides.

It's very hard to statistically represent my argument for the defensive side of his game because things like tackles and interceptions for midfielders and defenders can be relatively meaningless, making lots of either can be as indicative of poor reading of situations as it can good reading. If all we want is someone to do a very limited defensive job then Dier does fine. But I believe we are more than that now, and to move to the next level, we must expect more from a No.6/DM than just shuffling across and dropping back 5 yards and never contributing more pro-actively. Wanyama already does all that and will contribute more pro-actively. Will hunt and instigate transitions, but with no defensive compromise, as we saw all last year.

Dier does not press the ball as well as Wanyama for example, because he's more cumbersome and less dynamic, and the same goes for him in comparison to many of his peers, Fernandinho, Kante, Henderson, Can, younger Matic. Of all the pure DM's (and that's what Dier is) he's the least multi functional. He's meat, but not even much potato, let alone veg.

Statistically, Wanyama, Fernandinho, Kanté, Can, Henderson all provide more key passes, assists, chances and even goals than Dier does, whilst performing primarily defensive midfield remits. Even Xhaka does. Now I'm not saying that all of those players are better in every facet of their make up than Dier, but if you put most of them under Poch, wouldn't they all be at least capable of doing the limited remit Dier performs at least as well ?

Dier rarely steps beyond the other CM, let alone the AM's. Rarely instigates transition, plays an incisive pass that sets a counter in motion. And offers almost nothing incisive or creative to our team (I know we are in a thread for a game where he's played a great through ball, but that's a very rare occurrence, and if he does it's invariably that same type of thing, the long hopeful, never a clever defence splitter). But for me, worse than that, is that he's not a defensive instigator either, he's not a quick reader, not someone who can proactively go pressing the ball and winning it and then starting a transition that catches opponents off set, because that's really not his forte either. That's not to say he's never ever done that, he has, it's just to say that's not his normal MO. He's much more reactive, likes to give himself time and space to see things, does not want to take any risk. And when he does take risk, as we saw on Sunday, it can go horribly wrong.

If you watch the first half of the Chelsea game, Juve away first half, Liverpool away first half, Southampton games, you see a player that struggles enormously under pressure and press. When we are doing our possession thing against a passive bus park, he's ok, but he doesn't want the ball under duress, and if we want to progress even further, that's what we have to be able to do, it's no good just being competent when the pressures off our CM's.

There are few clubs around right now who you could say are vastly superior to our forward group or defensive group, but if you look at the very best teams, they all have a little bit more inspiration from their midfields. Part of the problem isn't just Dier, it's playing Dier with another very risk averse CM like Dembele.

I just think if we want to take the next step, it's the easiest area of this team to improve. A pair of CM's that are defensively adept but who can actually contribute some direction, tempo, impetus and a smidgeon of creativity and productivity to our play as well. Or at least one.

I mostly find your stuff so long winded that I ignore it (no offense intended - people largely ignore me because I talk sh*t, albeit succinctly), but I have to say I largely agree with you here.

Dier is a good player, potentially a very good centre back. But if you're looking at areas of the team to strengthen, much as I like the combative approach he brings, CM is one area, and the Wanyama of last season was a level above what Dier has been this season.

I don't want to overly take away from him - he's improved, is improving in many facets of the game, and seems to be a positive influence in the squad. But if you told me someone had nicked his spot next year I wouldn't be that surprised.
 

whitesocks

The past means nothing. This is a message for life
Jan 16, 2014
4,652
5,738
There is perhaps some confusion with Dier.
The reason he passes quickly is not that he is uncomfortable the ball.
If he is being pressed it is probably a transition situation and his duty is to quickly and accurately feed the ball to the AMs, which he does well. He is equally good on both feet and that naturally gives him more passing angles.

If players know the pass is coming, they will make the runs into space. Eriksen usually makes himself available. Alli made the run for the goal as he knew Dier would see it and would make the pass.

By contrast if Dembele is on the ball, then he will carry it through the press as best he can - he is not looking to pass. Passing is a sign of weakness to this guy!

The worst way to counter Dier is by pressing him. Just leave him in space and cut off his passing angles. Then he'll pass back as he doesn't have an AM bone in his body.
And sure, for a player his size, he should be getting more goals from all the set plays.
So he is not beyond criticism.

But Dier covers the RB, RCB, LCB, centre-half and DM positions - this guy is not the weak link to any extent in my opinion.
 

zoneD

Active Member
Aug 9, 2014
632
173
I think our midfield is a major factor in why we are not better than what we are right now. It is the weakest part of our team.

...our MF was weakest earlier in the season when Dembele looked a shell of his former self and Winks was pressed into service when clearly not up to the task...our weak link currently is obviously our FBs - Poch won't even let them get upfield for fear they get caught out...

...a MF of Dier and a healthy, in-form Dembele is more than adequate to compete for the league title, CL, cups, etc. - however, we should still look to shore up our squad MFs at some point to give us better bench/injury options...

COYS
 

hughy

I'm SUPER cereal.
Nov 18, 2007
31,842
56,935
our weak link currently is obviously our FBs - Poch won't even let them get upfield for fear they get caught out...

Davies, Trippier and Aurier have 21 goals and assists in all competitions between them this season.


Don't make shit up.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
...our MF was weakest earlier in the season when Dembele looked a shell of his former self and Winks was pressed into service when clearly not up to the task...our weak link currently is obviously our FBs - Poch won't even let them get upfield for fear they get caught out...

...a MF of Dier and a healthy, in-form Dembele is more than adequate to compete for the league title, CL, cups, etc. - however, we should still look to shore up our squad MFs at some point to give us better bench/injury options...

COYS
Davies, Trippier and Aurier have 21 goals and assists in all competitions between them this season.


Don't make shit up.

List of the leagues top assisting defenders..
 

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Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
...our MF was weakest earlier in the season when Dembele looked a shell of his former self and Winks was pressed into service when clearly not up to the task...our weak link currently is obviously our FBs - Poch won't even let them get upfield for fear they get caught out...

...a MF of Dier and a healthy, in-form Dembele is more than adequate to compete for the league title, CL, cups, etc. - however, we should still look to shore up our squad MFs at some point to give us better bench/injury options...

COYS


Amazing how bot Trippier and Davies are still creating more assists, chances and key passes than Walker then eh....

I think you should head over to the "what other fans are saying" thread and read the City fans opinion of Walker.
 

Yid

Well Endowed Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,254
1,366
We were the better side basically from when Chelsea scored, but didn’t really create anything until the second half. Then we absolutely dominated. So happy for Dele too after all the ridiculous agenda driven bile in the media this past week.

Lloris was fine, dealt with everything he needed to and was unlucky on the goal when he was damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

Trippier was the better of two fullbacks but the bar wasn’t too high. Much better in the second half, linking well with Son.

Sanchez was very good, very strong and very focussed to not get beaten by Chelsea’s rapid front three.

Vertonghen I felt was imperious, some brilliant strong interceptions and well timed, committed tackles. Did well to make up for the lack of protection Davies gave him. My MOTM.

Davies was our worst player, showed up all game by Moses and was poor with his passing. Didn’t seem his usual steady self and I have no idea where he was for their goal.

Dier was poor first half, better in the second half where he was far more proactive in stopping Chelsea’s front three. Beautiful assist.

Dembele was passed by in the first half by he grabbed the game second half and really bossed Kane and Fabregas.

Lamela was not involved first half, on the periphery and not effecting anything. Better second half, linked play far more and an absolute warrior off the ball.

Dele also improved second half, much more involved and far better with his movement. Both goals showed wonderful skill and composure. Displayed all his best qualities and shut up the idiot media.

Eriksen was unlucky not to be MOTM. Good first half, great second half, amazing goal, constantly involved in all our best play, sublime pass for Son building up to our third goal.

Son was not his best, never overly got in the game and was a little selfish but his darting run into Eriksen pass leading to our third was beautiful.

Kane was unselfish and acted as a focal point.

Wanyama looked fitter than he has done.

Sissoko came on.

Pochettino deserves credit for the most subtle tactical tweak to turn a first half performance which lacked penetration into a second half performance which dominated, toyed with Chelsea and fully deserved the victory.

Pretty spot on.

These four -->> Sanchez, Dele, Verts, and Eriksen, all deserve the MOm, but
I must give a slight edge to Jan. He's been nothing short of amazing so far this season.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
...Walker and Rose to Trippier and Davies...
;)
COYS
Amazing how bot Trippier and Davies are still creating more assists, chances and key passes than Walker then eh....

I think you should head over to the "what other fans are saying" thread and read the City fans opinion of Walker.

I repeat, this season’s assists for premier league defenders....
 

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