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Match Ratings Ratings vs Crystal Palace

MOTM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Aurier

    Votes: 18 6.1%
  • Sanchez

    Votes: 58 19.8%
  • Dier

    Votes: 72 24.6%
  • Davies

    Votes: 27 9.2%
  • Wanyama

    Votes: 8 2.7%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 14 4.8%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 16 5.5%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 12 4.1%
  • Dele

    Votes: 11 3.8%
  • Kane

    Votes: 47 16.0%
  • Moura

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Son

    Votes: 2 0.7%

  • Total voters
    293

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
I need more on the Wanyama/Dembele thing here.

Wanyama "had a very good game, seeing more ball than anyone blah blah blah..."

81 passes with 87% accuracy.

Dembele "looked laboured and didn't move the ball quick enough etc etc amen..."

75 passes with 92% accuracy.

One of those players was on the pitch for 10 minutes plus injury time longer than the other one.

Neither (according to whoscored) made any tackles.

BC Bingo. We're in Wilson Palacios/Tom Huddlestone territory here.


It's not just the amount of passes bear, it's that Wanyama didn't fucking dawdle on it like a dervish on skag. Seem's our esteemed leader felt similar as one of them got hauled off and the other didn't. Guess which one.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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I'm also a little bamboozled by how so many thought that game was so dire, but were raving about how wonderful the Juve game was. Both games followed similar patterns, except one of them didn't feature us being fucking clowns for the first twenty minutes, then also giving up another penalty and a handful of other great chances the opposition.

Both games featured us relentlessly pinning the other team back, but against Palace we got into a shitload more good attacking positions, made even more great chances that Kane wasted, and actually won the game, not drew it.

Now I know Palace are a fuckload shitter than Juve, but both games we basically dominated with some good approach play, both games we wasted chances and both were rescued by Kane and an Eriksen set piece. Eriksen was the only player in both games who performed.

Winning these types of games is us being like proper teams. Like how Utd and Arsenal used to win championships.

With regards to those saying Eriksen wasn't great. He fucked up one very good chance to shoot from the edge of the box. Apart from that he did what he usually does - saw shit loads more ball than most AM's do, more than most CM's do, set up Kane for an absolute sitter with a sublime bit of improvisation, played a great ball that Alli fluffed, for a guy who's remit is to make these kind of passes and put also put balls into the box his completion was still bloody high (84% - which is higher than tubby Hudd's was most weeks @Spurs_Bear ) and he still set up the winning goal as well. You take Eriksen out of that game, it becomes Newport, or worse, Southampton away.

But hey, lets give it to Dier because his eyes are bluer.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
It's not just the amount of passes bear, it's that Wanyama didn't fucking dawdle on it like a dervish on skag. Seem's our esteemed leader felt similar as one of them got hauled off and the other didn't. Guess which one.

What an absolute load of wind.

And Dier actually "saw more ball" than Wanyama. And Wanyama was dispossessed more times. And had more "Unsure Touches" whatever the fuck that is. Had a very good game though didn't he? Nothing to do with your preference for him over Dier.

Maybe Wanyama should have taken the apparent (bollocks) dervish on skag approach, his pass completion might have been higher.
 

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
May 14, 2007
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I'm also a little bamboozled by how so many thought that game was so dire, but were raving about how wonderful the Juve game was. Both games followed similar patterns, except one of them didn't feature us being fucking clowns for the first twenty minutes, then also giving up another penalty and a handful of other great chances the opposition.

Both games featured us relentlessly pinning the other team back, but against Palace we got into a shitload more good attacking positions, made even more great chances that Kane wasted, and actually won the game, not drew it.

Now I know Palace are a fuckload shitter than Juve, but both games we basically dominated with some good approach play, both games we wasted chances and both were rescued by Kane and an Eriksen set piece. Eriksen was the only player in both games who performed.

Winning these types of games is us being like proper teams. Like how Utd and Arsenal used to win championships.

With regards to those saying Eriksen wasn't great. He fucked up one very good chance to shoot from the edge of the box. Apart from that he did what he usually does - saw shit loads more ball than most AM's do, more than most CM's do, set up Kane for an absolute sitter with a sublime bit of improvisation, played a great ball that Alli fluffed, for a guy who's remit is to make these kind of passes and put also put balls into the box his completion was still bloody high (84% - which is higher than tubby Hudd's was most weeks @Spurs_Bear ) and he still set up the winning goal as well. You take Eriksen out of that game, it becomes Newport, or worse, Southampton away.

But hey, lets give it to Dier because his eyes are bluer.

I don't mean to be continually disagreeing with you because usually I don't, but the highlighted bit above I simply don't know how you can say your bamboozled or even compare the 2 games. One was away against a European elite club and the other was against an injury riddled relegation threatened team. The match yesterday was a turgid, scrappy uninspiring showing apart from one or 2 moments of nice play, while the Juve game was sweeping end to end stuff with us carving out 2 really good goals.
 

ultimateloner

Well-Known Member
Jan 25, 2004
4,539
2,149
Game of attrition. Great fitness and a strong will to win got us through in the end even when our quality let us down at times.
Commands respect...a Poch-type team performance. Not much more to say really.
 

coys200

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
8,436
17,403
I think people have underestimated how well Palace set up. Hodgson May be a bit of a doddering old fool but he still knows how to set a team up. The fact is palace is a difficult place to go. We utterly dominated the game. People taking for granted getting 77% of the ball. I’d guess that’s more than any other team has had at Selhurst. Tbh the way we are dominating games is crazy. We went to Anfield and had 70% not sure on juve stats but guess they were high. We all know you can’t be magnificent every game. But we dominated the game and found a way to win.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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I don't mean to be continually disagreeing with you because usually I don't, but the highlighted bit above I simply don't know how you can say your bamboozled or even compare the 2 games. One was away against a European elite club and the other was against an injury riddled relegation threatened team. The match yesterday was a turgid, scrappy uninspiring showing apart from one or 2 moments of nice play, while the Juve game was sweeping end to end stuff with us carving out 2 really good goals.


It really wasn't. It was us dominating possession and territory, but with them having much more counter threat than Palace, and if they'd taken their chances, including a penalty we'd have been fucked before Dembele could even start to be the best midfielder the world had ever seen.

Yes, there is a massive disparity in the quality of the opposition, but there was also a massive disparity in the Amount of good positions and chances we created and conceded in both games too. Of course there was some scrappy play, the opposition set up to make it entirely that way, but to our credit we got Kane into a couple of nailed on scoring chances and the full backs in behind their defence numerous times. I can understand, and agree with, criticism of our final act, but the rest was a team doing exactly what it should in games like that, and through that, eventually finding a way to win.
 

theShiznit

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2004
17,800
23,813
So why were so many people enamoured with the Juve game?
Because we came back from two goals down and forced a top European side to allow us to dominate possession, even when they came out with a clear change of tactics second half to press us and force us into errors, we quelled that and they had gone back into defensive mode after 5 minutes.

The expectation of both games was totally different too. especially after being 2 down so early.
 

wirE

I'm a well-known member
Sep 27, 2005
4,676
5,582
I like what I saw from Moura yesterday. He's quick with the ball, moves into channels and wants to get forward fast and Palace had their challenge keeping up with him. Let's see more of him against Huddersfield
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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What an absolute load of wind.

And Dier actually "saw more ball" than Wanyama. And Wanyama was dispossessed more times. And had more "Unsure Touches" whatever the fuck that is. Had a very good game though didn't he? Nothing to do with your preference for him over Dier.

Maybe Wanyama should have taken the apparent (bollocks) dervish on skag approach, his pass completion might have been higher.

You're comparing a CB in a game we had 75% with a CM?

Dier was playing as a CB against a team that rarely put any pressure on him. Wanyama was playing as a CM in a much more pressured area of the pitch with a much more multi faceted remit.

Yes, I definitely have a preference for Wanyama as a CM to Dier. But it's not just because he generally has a high completion rate (his completion rate was 1% higher last season than Dier's is this), it's because he's more dynamic, presses the ball better, passes it quicker, can move with the ball better, and as well as being defensively robust also gets forward more too, makes double the key passes and creates double the chances that Dier does. Which helps mitigate the many days when Dembele wants to dribble round the same guy three times before laying it off to Dier.

I'm not sure exactly what your point is? If all I cared about was pass completion, I'd be onboard the Dembele love bus with you, chasing the dragon.
 
Last edited:

Donki

Has a "Massive Member" Member
May 14, 2007
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So why were so many people enamoured with the Juve game?

It really wasn't. It was us dominating possession and territory, but with them having much more counter threat than Palace, and if they'd taken their chances, including a penalty we'd have been fucked before Dembele could even start to be the best midfielder the world had ever seen.

Yes, there is a massive disparity in the quality of the opposition, but there was also a massive disparity in the Amount of good positions and chances we created and conceded in both games too. Of course there was some scrappy play, the opposition set up to make it entirely that way, but to our credit we got Kane into a couple of nailed on scoring chances and the full backs in behind their defence numerous times. I can understand, and agree with, criticism of our final act, but the rest was a team doing exactly what it should in games like that, and through that, eventually finding a way to win.

People are enamored because on the highest stage possible we came back from 2 nil down away to a European giant of a club, if that doesn't stiffen you Johnston I don't know what will. You cant say "if" in football, all that maters is what actually happened. I could say IF Harry was in better form we could have beaten Juve.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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People are enamored because on the highest stage possible we came back from 2 nil down away to a European giant of a club, if that doesn't stiffen you Johnston I don't know what will. You cant say "if" in football, all that maters is what actually happened. I could say IF Harry was in better form we could have beaten Juve.

It did, I enjoyed it, and said so, but for not dissimilar reasons to why I enjoyed yesterday.

Because against an obdurate opponent who tried to pose us a stubborn tactical question we went about it the right way, it was just final situation wastage that was not so good. But that happened in all our games lately.

Image ne if we’d got the almost identical penalty decision (any 3 of them) yesterday that we did get in Turin for example.

And yes Palace are a quantum load shitter, but it’s relative, we opened them up more and didn’t get ourselves opened up at all, compared to the Juve game.

I enjoyed both.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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Because we came back from two goals down and forced a top European side to allow us to dominate possession, even when they came out with a clear change of tactics second half to press us and force us into errors, we quelled that and they had gone back into defensive mode after 5 minutes.

The expectation of both games was totally different too. especially after being 2 down so early.

So having less control of the Juve game, giving up a two goal lead that could have been three or four before we even got in it, and getting a draw instead of win, can be seen as a pinnacle of excellence but a game we dominate, create some great chances, loads of great situations, don’t allow the opposition a sniff and win is a disaster?

Sorry mate, I don’t agree. I think that’s emotional bias fuckin wid ya.

I enjoyed both games because in both we did a lot of right things against difficult opponents who were largely set in a deep block. But in the Juve game we were also awful for the old ending phase and allowed them many chances to kill us. In the Palace game we didn’t. Which is relative to their respective quality, which how I can balance them, performance wise.

People seem to hate these bus park games, but I only hate them when our play is laborious and lacking any tempo and incision. Even though Palace made those things difficult, we did open them up and repeatedly got people ( mostly the fb’s) in good positions. It was only waste and the ref that we took so long to break them. If not, the game opens up even more and boom.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
You're comparing a CB in a game we had 75% with a CM?

Dier was playing as a CB against a team that rarely put any pressure on him. Wanyama was playing as a CM in a much more pressured area of the pitch.

Yes, I definitely have a preference for Wanyama as a CM to Dier. But it's not just because he generally has a high completion rate (his completion rate was 1% higher last season than Dier's is this), it's because he's more dynamic, presses the ball better, passes it quicker, can move with the ball better, and as well as being defensively robust also gets forward more too, makes double the key passes and creates double the chances that Dier does. Which helps mitigate the many days when Dembele wants to dribble round the same guy three times before laying it off to Dier.

I'm not sure exactly what your point is? If all I cared about was pass completion, I'd be onboard the Dembele love bus with you, chasing the dragon.

I'm not comparing anyone to anything, just your futile point about Wanyama playing like Pirlo with the stats you quoted.

It's not hard to know where you sit on the Wanyama/Dier fence, but telling us about what Wanyama did last year rather than what he did on Sunday against Palace is ludicrous. I was disappointed in both Dembele and Wanyama on Sunday and love them both, as you probably know. Trying to claim one had a good game while talking down the other to fit your narrative (don't even get me started on your Aurier/Walker bollocks either) only furthers the proof that you've written your match ratings before the game even kicks off.
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
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I'm not comparing anyone to anything, just your futile point about Wanyama playing like Pirlo with the stats you quoted.

It's not hard to know where you sit on the Wanyama/Dier fence, but telling us about what Wanyama did last year rather than what he did on Sunday against Palace is ludicrous. I was disappointed in both Dembele and Wanyama on Sunday and love them both, as you probably know. Trying to claim one had a good game while talking down the other to fit your narrative (don't even get me started on your Aurier/Walker bollocks either) only furthers the proof that you've written your match ratings before the game even kicks off.

I could understand if I was a fence sitter, or never explained why I have a preference.

I wasn't the only one who thought Wanyama was good. It's not a coincidence that we had the best season for 60 years with more Wanyama instead of Dier in CM last year, and it's not a coincidence that Dembele was dragged off yesterday and has been dragged off continually, even in the "good phases" of his time here, and Wanyama rarely has. But hey, if you want to think none of that is true but just alternative truth planted in your consciousness by me, knock yourself out.

I din't want us to sign Wanyama. I didn't realise how good he was at his job before we signed him. Like 99% of us, I would have chosen Schneiderlin over him all day long. That's not necessarily someone incapable of changing their opinion.

I like him. Not because of his pass completion. But because he does nearly everything better than Dier. Because he's the type of player that good teams need, someone who does simple things efficiently and brings the best out of others. Dier can do that, but not as well as Wanyama does. It's that simple.

It is a bit like the Palacios/huddlestone scenario I guess. You're still angry because I know which one was more important, and you still think it was Huddlestone.
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
I could understand if I was a fence sitter, or never explained why I have a preference.

I wasn't the only one who thought Wanyama was good. It's not a coincidence that we had the best season for 60 years with more Wanyama instead of Dier in CM last year, and it's not a coincidence that Dembele was dragged off yesterday and has been dragged off continually, even in the "good phases" of his time here, and Wanyama rarely has. But hey, if you want to think none of that is true but just alternative truth planted in your consciousness by me, knock yourself out.

I din't want us to sign Wanyama. I didn't realise how good he was at his job before we signed him. Like 99% of us, I would have chosen Schneiderlin over him all day long. That's not necessarily someone incapable of changing their opinion.

I like him. Not because of his pass completion. But because he does nearly everything better than Dier. Because he's the type of player that good teams need, someone who does simple things efficiently and brings the best out of others. Dier can do that, but not as well as Wanyama does. It's that simple.

It is a bit like the Palacios/huddlestone scenario I guess. You're still angry because I know which one was more important, and you still think it was Huddlestone.

Oh yeah I was a big Hudd fan me. Your memory is going with age my old fruit.

What is this "dragged off" shite you keep peddling? He was subbed after 80 odd minutes, didn't Lamela get subbed as well? But you thought he had an alright game (even though he was largely insignificant unfortunately)? Why wasn't Lamela dragged off?

Narrative, narrative, bone idle narrative.

Your repeated point about how good Wanyama is, is of course completely irrelevant to this conversation. We're talking about how good he was yesterday, which was nothing more then meh, along with about 7 of our other players (including Dembele).
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
Oh yeah I was a big Hudd fan me. Your memory is going with age my old fruit.

What is this "dragged off" shite you keep peddling? He was subbed after 80 odd minutes, didn't Lamela get subbed as well? But you thought he had an alright game (even though he was largely insignificant unfortunately)? Why wasn't Lamela dragged off?

Narrative, narrative, bone idle narrative.

Your repeated point about how good Wanyama is, is of course completely irrelevant to this conversation. We're talking about how good he was yesterday, which was nothing more then meh, along with about 7 of our other players (including Dembele).

121 voted for our two CB's. 16 for Lamela. 13 voted for Dembele. And you think my narrative is out of whack ?
 
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