Ratings vs Hull

Discussion in 'Match Ratings Archive' started by Bulletspur, Nov 23, 2014.

MOM

  1. Lloris

    4 vote(s)
    1.4%
  2. Dier

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Fazio

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  4. Verts

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  5. Davies

    4 vote(s)
    1.4%
  6. Dembele

    1 vote(s)
    0.3%
  7. Mason

    33 vote(s)
    11.3%
  8. Eriksen

    208 vote(s)
    71.2%
  9. Lamela

    13 vote(s)
    4.5%
  10. Kane

    9 vote(s)
    3.1%
  11. Soldado

    3 vote(s)
    1.0%
  12. Paulinho

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  13. Lennon

    2 vote(s)
    0.7%
  14. Chiriches

    9 vote(s)
    3.1%
  1. talkshowhost86

    talkshowhost86 Mod-Moose Staff

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    We'll have to agree to disagree about the first half because I thought we were awful again and even with all the possession we had we didn't look like creating anything until Eriksen's cross. Just having 61% possession doesn't mean anything if you don't do anything with it and that was the case in the first half.

    But I totally agree about the reasons for us being a bit rubbish at the moment. It's still early days and only the most impatient of fans would expect things to be sorted by now. I worry that we still aren't seeing a great deal of progression but hopefully with certain players being dropped yesterday Poch is starting to weed out those who don't do what they're told which will start to see us making some progress.

    Ultimately the main plus point at the moment is that even if we're not playing well we're still in touch with those above us (somehow) so if things do eventually click we're in a relatively good position.
     
  2. EastLondonYid

    EastLondonYid Well-Known Member

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    Obviously the red card helped us.....but i felt the turning point was the poor substitutions Bruce made after the red card rather than them actually going down to 10 men, Tommys abilty to find a pass for them to break and Ben Arfas threat of getting in behind us was a gone and we took complete control.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  3. TaoistMonkey

    TaoistMonkey What would Phil Dunphy do? Staff

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    Always love your write ups BC. Zero knee jerkyness and always on the spot.

    Good man.
     
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  4. steve

    steve Well-Known Member

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    I can see why Lamela divides opinion so much - he's quite error prone on the one hand, giving the ball away cheaply or hanging onto it too long but he's also technically very accomplished in flashes and he does have a great attitude when it comes to winning the ball back (although in this respect he's like Mason - they both get sucked towards the player on the ball and lose the team shape as a result). He's also got a bit of bite in him which in our team of insipid shirkers is gold right now.

    I thought we played ok apart from defensively 1st half when we looked likely to concede every time they attacked. Dier isn't a RB we know but he wasn't awful as some seem to be portraying - I'd like to see him given at go at CB alongside Vertonghen. If Chiriches is gonna play RB (which suits him more than CB) then he 1) needs to be disciplined (no attempted nutmegs on the edge of your own box please) and 2) he needs a lot of protection from Lamela/Chadli (not Eriksen who's defensive discipline is perfunctory at best - right now he's making Modric look like Roy Keane).

    I like Dier though, he's a good technician with good awareness for one so young and he's got the physicality AND the intelligence to be a top centre half. A RB he is not we know and I hope Poch plays him at CB very soon otherwise his development will get stifled. Fazio's ok and we need to give him time but I doubt he'll ever be top draw. Dawson did the Dawson stuff well but when we finally got 2 quality balls into the box he was found wanting. The Northern Monkey Football Show (MOTD2) failed to highlight this when selectively using footage to highlight his brilliance (high fiving and shouting pre match, clearing a poor cross after a poor header and one well timed tackle) against Fazio's apparent uselessness.

    Davies was ok considering he didn't get loads of help down that side offensively or defensively but he seems decent technically and he's got some determination at least so there's stuff to build on.

    I thought Soldado's link up play was generally pretty good and we seem to move the ball faster with him playing than not - I'd still give him a go in games we can afford to. That said he should've hit the target with his chance 2nd half. Kane was ok, took his goal well but missed a sitter with his nose (Bobby's nose would've buried that one) after one of Lennon's best ever crosses.

    I think it was an improvement overall, we zipped the ball around better and showed some fight, character and tenacity. Away from home we do look more at ease and the away support is truly top class. I worry about the Everton game but I'm hoping the crowd are up for it and they won't just come and sit like the Stokes of this world do....
     
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  5. yido_number1

    yido_number1 Spurs supporter, unlike some.

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    No but I'm prepared to cut the players who I are doing ok some slack until we s hip out the dross. We have a lot of slackers in the squad and need time to change that. Until then I,'ll celebrate an away win. There were highlights eriksen in cm, mason, Fazio and verts looked good, chiriches did ok, kane scored again and Soledad even got some chances which he tucked but at least he is in the game. Paulinho was shocking and has no confidence at all... he needs a loan away.
     
  6. parklane1

    parklane1 Well-Known Member

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    Eriksen for me, I thought Davies is looking more settled and it was great to see a proper winger on the field again in Lennon.
     
  7. lukespurs7

    lukespurs7 Well-Known Member

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    In both of which Eriksen performed well.
    Its also a game of 90minutes and if Ageuro does nothing for 89 mins but scores the winner in the 90th you give him a 8/10 rating as he's won the match and done his job, Eriksen not only won the match but set up our 1st goal and pretty much ran the show for the whole of the 2nd half and was our biggest threat in the first half so how you've given him such an average rating is beyond me.

    For me that was a 9/10 performance, absolutely top drawer if he's played in the right position he is one of our few class players at the moment.
     
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  8. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

    They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

    Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

    I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

    They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

    I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

    I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

    All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

    I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
     
  9. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    Agree about the CM2, the balance isn't right - and like you say they arn't working in tandem.

    I'd love to see us move for someone like Cabaye and to pair him with Bentaleb. That would offer good vertical passing, particularly with Cabaye, which would link our midfield to our attack more effectively in this system whilst also offering plenty of tenacity and grit in the middle, providing they were working in tandem and forged a good understanding.

    Just an example of course, and thinking out loud so to speak.
     
  10. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I like Cabaye and Schniederlin. I wouldn't mind if we signed either, but I really believe that we have the players here, the trick is just getting them knowing what they are doing and working as a collective as a team and a duo CM2.

    There are no individuals in that Southampton team that are much better than ones we have here, some not as good. Schnierderlin is probably the only one and it's marginal (think about all the games he's played against us - last game Capoue was MOTM that day if I remember - Edit just looked and he was by a mile 106 votes ) The difference is they are more balanced. They have a settled defence and CM that works as a duo in tandem, they all work cohesively for each other and they do simple things on and off the ball pretty efficiently.
     
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  11. thinktank

    thinktank Hmmm...

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    I think Mason will smooth any rough edges he has once he has fully functioning players around him. He's had to fill in here and be here and be there because the A3 is not functioning properly and we need someone to drive our game.

    He's had to deal with a lot of disjointed, dysfunctional play around him and has coped amazingly well for just coming into the team and virtually hitting the ground running.

    He's our MVP and has been since he started playing imo. Without him our game - what little 'game' we have right now - would fall apart.

    Agree with the rest but I've got untold time for Mason and I think we'll see an even more improved player when he's got a better framework around him, so I'm not too concerned about any shortfalls he has atm.

    FBs, ultimately, is what will really get our game going the way poch wants though, as you mentioned.
     
  12. Spursidol

    Spursidol Well-Known Member

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    In the current set up the CM's have two main jobs (a) to protect the defence and (b) to move the ball forward quickly.

    Its not working ideally - and one of the issues is the attacking force.

    At the moment the front 4 are not working well together - too often Chadli, Eriksen and Lamela often all move into the centre with no width and its often worse if Soldado plays as he also tends to play centrally - for all his many faults Adebayor often strays to the left wing so not adding as much congestion in the centre (when he puts the effort in of course).

    if we can sort out the AM's better with one of them (at least) providing width (and preferably all 3 interchanging positions) there will be less problem for the CM's to move the ball forward quickly. If that does not happen then IMO the solution is to have 3 in the middle - with probably one dedicated DM (Stambouli looks the obvious choice) - and sacrificing one of the AM's who are duplicating themselves in the central areas by always cutting in. BTW although Walker/Rose could provide width as FB's the bunching in the middle will not, so the AM's still need sorting.

    Coming back to your comment oin Capoue though, before Mason started to partner him, the constant issue was that the ball was not being moved forward quickly enough - Poch commented it as a problem - but that issue seems to have gone away with Mason's inclusion. Coincidence - I think not.

    Mason puts in a full shift including making tackles and interceptions, so maybe the question is who should partner Mason - a pure DM or (except the best sides) could someone like Bentaleb who offers both passing skills as well as a bit of bite be the partner - its a question made pertinant by Capoue's poor form over the last 4 - 5 weeks which means we do need a change.

    I've discounted Dembele as his slow passiing and indifferent form would take us backwards - longer term I'd include Veljkovic as a possibile option however not convinced Poch would without a little more experience
     
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  13. spurs9

    spurs9 Well-Known Member

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    Why is Dier your preferred partner for Verts? He has only played CB for us 29 mins in the league and 1 game in the Europa, so surely you can't have seen enough to convince you?
     
  14. cliff jones

    cliff jones Well-Known Member

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    Lloris 4 one good save, another poor palm out instead of finger tip for a corner and two or three spills/poor punches.
    Dier 5 often faced with two on one, doesn't have the game to play wing back which this system effectively demands
    Davies 7 only got done once and circulated the ball simply and effectively
    Fazio 6 good in the air but give me the willies on the deck
    Jan 6 sluggish, nice wind up for their red, need him to bring the ball out like the old Jan
    Dembele 5 sluggish, caught out two or three times, needs gametime, has good presence
    Mason 7 worked his bollox off, moved the ball quickly and often incisively, got stuck in
    Eriksen 8 took the initiative, dribbling, crossing, shooting all impressive
    Lamela 7 looked mobile and more solid, one or two dodgy touches, should have hit the target with his chance
    Kane 6 busy, slotted home well, should have buried the header too, needs to lift his head a bit more on the ball
    Soldado 5 worked quite hard, poor connection for his best chance, not happening for him
    Chiriches 7 got forward well, good technique, only the odd misplaced pass
    Lennon 7 stretched them, looked bothered, actually whipped a peach of a cross in for Kane
    Paulinho 5 passed short and easy, did nothing more

    Poch 8 good team selection, good subs at the right time

    Daws typical brave rearguard, vulnerable to movement, Hudd, couple of bad fouls, Jake, great strike, awful tackle on Mason more deserving of a red than the type of offence committed by Gaston or Becks back in the day

    nicking away wins not our problem. desperate for a good first 20 against Everton.
     
  15. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    I really like Mason, but you not think Cabaye would offer that bit more vision etc from those positions in the centre?
     
  16. JUSTINSIGNAL

    JUSTINSIGNAL Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of this. I still think we have a massive problem with our full backs even when Walker is back in the team. He will help our problem with width but together with Rose they are just not productive enough for such a key position. And the more I think back about Southampton of last season, the more I realise how important Shaw and Clyne/Chambers were to the way they played. I don't feel any of our full backs are at their level. Indeed, I actually think the fullbacks were also partly responsible for our dysfunctional attacking play under AVB. Hopefully Poch can help develop Walker and Rose to become less erratic but I have my doubts.

    Again you are right to highlight our central midfield problem. Ideally we need a dynamic, positionally disciplined, strong tackling ball player next to Mason. Sounds like everything Schneiderlin is, right? He would be great but is definitely not worth £27m and I doubt Levy will pay that anyway. Going back to something you mentioned in the summer BC - I am starting to come around to your suggestion that Bentaleb could develop into this player. He has definitely got the physicality, dynamism and ball-playing ability. If Poch can develop his positional discipline, tracking of runners and tackling I really think him and Mason could make a good CM pairing.
     
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  17. Blake Griffin

    Blake Griffin Well-Known Member

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    if by "productive" you mean goals and assists. shaw, clyne and chambers combined for 0 goals and 5 assists ... not exactly dani alves like production.
     
  18. mpickard2087

    mpickard2087 Fantastic Member

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    Yes I'm also not convinced Walker coming back will solve all the problems. I'm really looking forward to his 'rush into a good position, then inexplicably stop, dither on the ball for 5 seconds, eventually decide to cross, fail to clear his marker with it...' move that he does about 500 times a game...
     
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  19. JUSTINSIGNAL

    JUSTINSIGNAL Well-Known Member

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    No. Just making good decisions in attacking areas. When to take on the man, when to pass, when to cross. I think the Southampton full backs made/make better decisions in this respect, which have a productive influence on attacking moves. Rather than Walker/Rose who either take on their man and are easily dispossessed or attempt a across and shank it or smash it into the first man.
     
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  20. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    I agree, full backs are such vital positions nowadays. In most teams they need to be able to defend diligently and attack purposefully.

    And in Poch's system they're vital. Not just providing width, but contributing intelligently to the attacking play from those wider areas.

    Look at Everton who we're playing this Sunday. Their full backs, in Baines and Coleman, piss all over ours.

    Its a position we need to improve on big time.
     
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