Ratings vs Hull

MOM

  • Lloris

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Dier

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Fazio

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Verts

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Davies

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Dembele

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Mason

    Votes: 33 11.3%
  • Eriksen

    Votes: 208 71.0%
  • Lamela

    Votes: 13 4.4%
  • Kane

    Votes: 9 3.1%
  • Soldado

    Votes: 3 1.0%
  • Paulinho

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Lennon

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • Chiriches

    Votes: 9 3.1%

  • Total voters
    293

talkshowhost86

Mod-Moose
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Messages
44,893
I don't think anyone (and I genuinely mean anyone) has dressed up yesterday as a glorious success. God knows I'm no apologist for shit insipid football either. And I had well versed doubts about Pochettino from the outset of his name being mooted and am still not convinced about him.

But sometimes people get themselves in a downwood spiral of mindset despair because a couple of results and performances are a bit meh/shit. I think there's been a collective case of this of late.

That performance yesterday was never terrible. Even in the first half. Hull scored a long ranger. They had a couple of other chances, which if memory serves me, all came kind of at the same time as a result of the same passage of play.

We aren't always going to have things our own way, even if we are playing quite well and doing more right than wrong.

Most people that I've read have acknowledged that lots of facets were still not great. The pressing from the front, the CM combo, Dier at RB etc. But even in that first half we'd had 61% of the ball, played some very decent approach play, got into some half decent situations (like when Eriksen flashed the ball across the 6 yard box) and were trying to at least be the team controlling the game. We competed and were not bullied out of the game or at least trying to play football. Our work off the ball was generally better, and there does seem to be a decent spirit in the team, which in successive away games has found a way to play and grind out wins.

I know there has been a bit of malaise about our play, but we are a dozen games into a new manager, we have a pretty young squad, many are still playing their first 20 or so EPL games (Dier, Chiriches, Fazio, Mason, Capoue, Bentaleb, Sambouli, Lamela, Chadli, Kane, Townsend). Six of those played yesterday. Still managed to dominate and win against a much more experienced bunch away from home.

Keeping in real means calling what's bad, bad. But it also sometimes means calling things OK when they are OK. Yesterday, even in the first half, we were OK.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the first half because I thought we were awful again and even with all the possession we had we didn't look like creating anything until Eriksen's cross. Just having 61% possession doesn't mean anything if you don't do anything with it and that was the case in the first half.

But I totally agree about the reasons for us being a bit rubbish at the moment. It's still early days and only the most impatient of fans would expect things to be sorted by now. I worry that we still aren't seeing a great deal of progression but hopefully with certain players being dropped yesterday Poch is starting to weed out those who don't do what they're told which will start to see us making some progress.

Ultimately the main plus point at the moment is that even if we're not playing well we're still in touch with those above us (somehow) so if things do eventually click we're in a relatively good position.
 

EastLondonYid

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
5,463
I don't agree with the notion that we would probably of still lost if not for the sending off. Hull would of set back to protect what they had anyway in the second half, I think its being over egged a touch. Sure it made things easier from a numerical point of view but its not always that clear cut to deduce that it was wholly significant.

For instance, Hull really pressed hard in the first half - and the from the front. They expended a lot of energy in that first half, Jelavic was completely fucked looking - indicated by a very tired lay off when they had that rare counter attack late on.

They got in our faces in the first half and per usual that rattled us. They should of been 2-0 up really, and for a five -ten minute spell we were absolutely all over the place. Fazio's poor header was fatal for Livermore's goal - a very rudimentary mistake to make for any CB to make, let alone one with his physical prowess and experience. We really don't help ourselves sometimes.

The changes we made were significant. The width and threat of Lennon and Vlad gave Hull a hell of a lot more to think about. Ultimately their defensive shape changes as a result and we found more space. Couple that with their exertions in the first half and I think its plausible that we would of gone on to get at least a draw had they still had a full compliment.

I suppose you could argue we wouldn't of had the psychological boost of the red card but nevertheless the changes disrupted their shape and we profited from that and their evident fatigue after a huge effort in the first half.

The pivotal moment wasn't so much the sending off IMO, for the reasons I'm giving, It was Ben Arfa's miss. Bruce can bang on as much as he likes about the red card, its bollox though, and it was a deserved red IMO. You just can't do that, it may appear soft but its the letter of the law. Bruce's reaction was one of the most pathetic I've ever seen from a manager.

Anyway, the real source of his anger would of been the fact they should of been 2-0 up at half time and of course Ramirez giving the ref a decision to make.

Had Ben Arfa buried his chance, which he should of, I'm not sure we would of recovered from that. We may have, but I seriously doubt we would of won the game.

There were some positives to take, we looked very good in the second half. I don't care what anyone says, playing against ten men away from home still isn't easy and we played some great stuff in the second half.

First half was poor and a from a defensive point of view, off the ball, there is massive scope for improvement.

It almost feels like we're a paradox at the moment. We look so fragile mentally sometimes and then you see some character and 'cuteness' creeping into our game that we havn't possessed for many years.

I don't think its papering over the cracks - a lazy label IMO. We know there are problems at the moment, but there's also some hope for optimism, if Pochettino can get the right blend of players pulling in the same direction.

Everton will be a much sterner test but maybe that's a good thing considering we're at home. Might just focus us a bit more.

Obviously the red card helped us.....but i felt the turning point was the poor substitutions Bruce made after the red card rather than them actually going down to 10 men, Tommys abilty to find a pass for them to break and Ben Arfas threat of getting in behind us was a gone and we took complete control.
 
Last edited:

TaoistMonkey

What would Phil Dunphy do?
Staff
Joined
Oct 25, 2005
Messages
32,540
It's good news week.

Get yourselves over to the ITK thread. The Togolise Crowned Prince of Egotown, the gangsta ant of Lilliput and Kaboul the Warrior Clown have apparently marched into the glorious revolutionary gaffer's office all indignant at being asked to do proper work for a living and piss whining about the younger players refusing to doff their caps to them and shit, and have apparently been told by Che Poch, judging by the lineup today (the ITK has it that Lennon only made the bench due to a shortage of options) that they have two choices, his way or the fucking highway, even if the highway turns out to be playing three way FIFA round Aaron's crib in the leafy Hertfordshire hood for the next 6 months.

That and we actually put in a half decent performance, and came from a goal behind and overcame a dogged resistance to win away.

Lets start, as is our usual want, with the team selection. I'm still not sure who was dropped and who was injured. But changes needed to be made, and Kaboul and Adebayor were top of list for various, some differing, reasons. So it was good both were omitted - completely. Even if Fazio still looks a bit like and Argentine Dawson at times, at least he didn't look as bewildered by it all as kaboul has recently.

We probably needed to try the Kane/Soldado combo just to see how it could work. For me it didn't really. Largely because Kane really isn't the No.10 type that some have claimed he could be. He clearly has a brain and technique, but his body is often not as dextrous as that mind, meaning his touch and movement can be clumsy and cumbersome in congested areas and situations, far too much to be a No.10 type anyway. And with him there, you don't get someone who can drop into midfield and play like a midfielder, as you get with players like Eriksen who can genuinely link the two lines, with quick nimble brain and movements. What I will say is, that with Soldado's goal scoring ability seeming cursed on UK soil, and Kane continually finding the net, it's time for Kane to be given a run of games as the loan striker IMO - and when we get Pritchard back from Brentford, he should play ALM and if Kane's scoring has dried up, Chadli can play there for the rest of the season.

The Dier RB experiment has to end. At least we learnt tonight that even if we aren't prepared to promote one of the development group, Chiriches is a much better option, prepared to attack and bomb forward (to be fair he was prepared to do that even as a CB)

We also learnt that Dembele definitely isn't the solution to the CM problem, like Capoue before him fell on his sword after an hour or so. Personally I think only a CM3 is the answer with the players we have. Mason gets about and sees plenty of ball, but once again, was often guilty of positional and tracking offences. When Hull set about us, These two didn't exactly provide the best protection, Stambouli's turn to chaperone Mason next week maybe ? On a side note, just a small issue, why would you put the predominantly right footed Mason on the left and left footed Dembele on the right of the pairing. Seemed illogical.

Hull also made big changes and with the ex Spurs lads were always going to be a bit fired up, especially after their start to the season.

Hull duly came out all bright eyed and bushy tailed, pressing us hard. But despite this and a couple of iffy moments, I thought we were actually playing quite well first half. We were competing, were slightly more sure footed with the ball than we have been lately and showed a bit more cohesiveness with and without the ball. We went behind to a very fortuitous pot shot after the ball had been cleared well outside the box. It was well struck but still went through Davies' legs. We were behind not because we were playing terribly, but because football sometimes does that. The other team were playing hard and they got a break.

Of course the match thread was apoplectic, wanting everyone beheaded for being football infidels. Not everything we were seeing was great but it was better than some that had gone before. We were having the lion share of the ball and putting some decent moves together, just, as ever, struggling with the final bit.

It's really hard to properly appraise the second half. Once their idiot had kicked and slapped Vertonghen's arse for no reason at all, the game effectively became a mis match. They were already doing the sit and protect thing, the sending off just made it more of a Custer's last stand.

Tactically, I didn't mind the idea of bringing Lennon on, but the sending back of Eriksen to play CM2 with Mason already doing his roaming thing seemed daft to me, Eriksen is still our most intelligent and creative player and to take him out of the line of attack seemed counter productive. Luckily this was rectified when Paulinho ambled on, meaning Eriksen could revert to the more forward role. This substitution looked even more puzzling when Lennon started occupying Eriksen's No.10 spot in the centre. I could understand putting him on to try and widen the pitch a bit but not to try and impersonate a trequartista.

I couldn't believe Pochettino was about to swap Lamela for Paulinho. Lamela offered his usual mixed bag, but still, for all his skittish jiggery pokery, looks like he can make something productive happen. He needs to make a simple pass sometimes instead of hanging on to it and trying the more difficult, but what I like is, he at least buys into the Pochettino system and works hard off the ball to win it back. Luckily Soldado realised the folly of this sub just in time and deliberately injured himself.

As it was, the Paulino's introduction allowed Eriksen to go back into his natural position, from whence he belted in a sweet winner.

In amongst the furore of another late, desperate win, I think there were some promising signs. We are showing fight and a refusal to be bullied. There was a good spirit about this and the Villa wins. There was more care and attention with the ball at times today and a little bit more coherence to our play with and without the ball I thought, despite facing a tricky oppo.

I can accept that we aren't always going to get our way in games, we aren't always going to be able to be pretty or stylish or slick, but the very least I want to see is some fight, some desire, and like we at least spend some time together on a training pitch and have not all just met for the first time ten minutes before kick off. I thought we were better in that respect today. Some fight, some spirit and some cohesiveness.

And the away support has always been fucking great at this club. Credit to them.

Individual awards:

Lloris - Great save first half.

Dier - Poor. But not his fault he's not a rb

Chiriches - Very good offensively, not tested too much defensively. Got past the defence a few times and put in a couple of great crosses.

Fazio - Hmmm..When tested still worries me. But had some good moments too.

Vertonghen - Pretty good game.

Davies - Doesn't offer enough offensively. Defensively OK.

Dembele - If we are trying to improve the tempo he's not the man. Doesn't move the ball quick enough. Not terrible not great.

Mason - With the ball a very good game. Defensively was a bit lax on a few occasions first half, second half this was not an issue as Hull didn't have any of the ball, and he was free to just play football, which he did, well. I would still like to see a bit more vision and incisiveness from him though.

Lamela - See above. The usual eager puppy dog stuff. Needs to calm down a little sometimes and just lay it off and keep the move flowing. But he never hides, tries to make something spark and works hard off the ball to win it back, and not just pretend trying to win it back.

Kane - Got the usual goal. Didn't think he was very good in general though. His body/feet sometimes doesn't quite do what he wants it to do. he's not a "10". he's not mentally and physically dextrous enough. But he's got a great attitude and a healthy knack of finding the net. Did miss a fucking sitter though as well.

Eriksen - I was disappointed he was subbed at Villa where I thought he was having a decent knock. I think he's a bit lightweight off the ball at times, but on the ball he's still our most intelligent and composed footballer. He played a beautiful first time pass to put Lennon in behind at one point. It was his superb free kick that set up the equaliser and his sweet finish that bagged the winner. 71/77 Passes too.

Soldado - Performance wise, Ok/meh, but has the hex on his scoring boots.

Lennon - Dod Ok, put in a coupe of good crosses, especially the one for Kane.
Always love your write ups BC. Zero knee jerkyness and always on the spot.

Good man.
 

steve

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2003
Messages
3,492
I can see why Lamela divides opinion so much - he's quite error prone on the one hand, giving the ball away cheaply or hanging onto it too long but he's also technically very accomplished in flashes and he does have a great attitude when it comes to winning the ball back (although in this respect he's like Mason - they both get sucked towards the player on the ball and lose the team shape as a result). He's also got a bit of bite in him which in our team of insipid shirkers is gold right now.

I thought we played ok apart from defensively 1st half when we looked likely to concede every time they attacked. Dier isn't a RB we know but he wasn't awful as some seem to be portraying - I'd like to see him given at go at CB alongside Vertonghen. If Chiriches is gonna play RB (which suits him more than CB) then he 1) needs to be disciplined (no attempted nutmegs on the edge of your own box please) and 2) he needs a lot of protection from Lamela/Chadli (not Eriksen who's defensive discipline is perfunctory at best - right now he's making Modric look like Roy Keane).

I like Dier though, he's a good technician with good awareness for one so young and he's got the physicality AND the intelligence to be a top centre half. A RB he is not we know and I hope Poch plays him at CB very soon otherwise his development will get stifled. Fazio's ok and we need to give him time but I doubt he'll ever be top draw. Dawson did the Dawson stuff well but when we finally got 2 quality balls into the box he was found wanting. The Northern Monkey Football Show (MOTD2) failed to highlight this when selectively using footage to highlight his brilliance (high fiving and shouting pre match, clearing a poor cross after a poor header and one well timed tackle) against Fazio's apparent uselessness.

Davies was ok considering he didn't get loads of help down that side offensively or defensively but he seems decent technically and he's got some determination at least so there's stuff to build on.

I thought Soldado's link up play was generally pretty good and we seem to move the ball faster with him playing than not - I'd still give him a go in games we can afford to. That said he should've hit the target with his chance 2nd half. Kane was ok, took his goal well but missed a sitter with his nose (Bobby's nose would've buried that one) after one of Lennon's best ever crosses.

I think it was an improvement overall, we zipped the ball around better and showed some fight, character and tenacity. Away from home we do look more at ease and the away support is truly top class. I worry about the Everton game but I'm hoping the crowd are up for it and they won't just come and sit like the Stokes of this world do....
 

yido_number1

Spurs supporter, unlike some.
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
5,363
I'm delighted with the 3 points, and also delighted that Ramirez got sent off, but can you really say you are happy with how we and some of our players are playing at the moment?

Aren't you frustrated with our squad at the moment? Or are you one of those that say stupid things like our squad is full of world class players, just becasue they are Spurs players and in your eyes that is 'supporting them'?

We have lost to Newcastle, Stoke and West Brom at home already this season, so if those of us that do go to games like to have a moan because what we are seeing and paying for isn't good enough then that's our right as supporters surely?
No but I'm prepared to cut the players who I are doing ok some slack until we s hip out the dross. We have a lot of slackers in the squad and need time to change that. Until then I,'ll celebrate an away win. There were highlights eriksen in cm, mason, Fazio and verts looked good, chiriches did ok, kane scored again and Soledad even got some chances which he tucked but at least he is in the game. Paulinho was shocking and has no confidence at all... he needs a loan away.
 

parklane1

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Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
4,391
Eriksen for me, I thought Davies is looking more settled and it was great to see a proper winger on the field again in Lennon.
 

lukespurs7

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Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
4,833
It is a game of two halves.
In both of which Eriksen performed well.
Its also a game of 90minutes and if Ageuro does nothing for 89 mins but scores the winner in the 90th you give him a 8/10 rating as he's won the match and done his job, Eriksen not only won the match but set up our 1st goal and pretty much ran the show for the whole of the 2nd half and was our biggest threat in the first half so how you've given him such an average rating is beyond me.

For me that was a 9/10 performance, absolutely top drawer if he's played in the right position he is one of our few class players at the moment.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
We desperately need two full backs who can attack and get beyond the opposition's midfield. Rose can do this and we have young fb's coming through who can. Even Chiriches did it better than Dier and Naughtone usually do.

For me, right now, Lamela and Eriksen have to play whether we play 4231 or 433, and in this system full backs must provide the worth, stretch the opposition and provide a contrast to the inverted attackers.
I'm more worried about Poch's insistence on sticking to a 4231 and his choice of CM2 within that. He needs to get that CM2 pair right or switch to a 433 soonish.
I think if Pochettno can get those around him working well and the CM2 situation solved, Eriksen's lack of tenacity can be accommodated.
That's the problem though, I think we'll just have to wait for his type of players to be brought in/through. Can't see it with the squad we currently have, unfortunately.

If he played stambo next to Mason that would help, but it still wouldn't solve the issue imo.

We'll probably see them both against everton anyway, so you'll see what I'm on about as e'ton don't mess around irt physicality and determination and effort so we'll have a dogfight on out hands...if we care to join it.
Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
 

Mr Pink

SC Supporter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,722
Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
Agree about the CM2, the balance isn't right - and like you say they arn't working in tandem.

I'd love to see us move for someone like Cabaye and to pair him with Bentaleb. That would offer good vertical passing, particularly with Cabaye, which would link our midfield to our attack more effectively in this system whilst also offering plenty of tenacity and grit in the middle, providing they were working in tandem and forged a good understanding.

Just an example of course, and thinking out loud so to speak.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2004
Messages
39,837
Agree about the CM2, the balance isn't right - and like you say they arn't working in tandem.

I'd love to see us move for someone like Cabaye and to pair him with Bentaleb.

I like Cabaye and Schniederlin. I wouldn't mind if we signed either, but I really believe that we have the players here, the trick is just getting them knowing what they are doing and working as a collective as a team and a duo CM2.

There are no individuals in that Southampton team that are much better than ones we have here, some not as good. Schnierderlin is probably the only one and it's marginal (think about all the games he's played against us - last game Capoue was MOTM that day if I remember - Edit just looked and he was by a mile 106 votes ) The difference is they are more balanced. They have a settled defence and CM that works as a duo in tandem, they all work cohesively for each other and they do simple things on and off the ball pretty efficiently.
 
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
44,901
Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
I think Mason will smooth any rough edges he has once he has fully functioning players around him. He's had to fill in here and be here and be there because the A3 is not functioning properly and we need someone to drive our game.

He's had to deal with a lot of disjointed, dysfunctional play around him and has coped amazingly well for just coming into the team and virtually hitting the ground running.

He's our MVP and has been since he started playing imo. Without him our game - what little 'game' we have right now - would fall apart.

Agree with the rest but I've got untold time for Mason and I think we'll see an even more improved player when he's got a better framework around him, so I'm not too concerned about any shortfalls he has atm.

FBs, ultimately, is what will really get our game going the way poch wants though, as you mentioned.
 

Spursidol

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Messages
12,636
Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
In the current set up the CM's have two main jobs (a) to protect the defence and (b) to move the ball forward quickly.

Its not working ideally - and one of the issues is the attacking force.

At the moment the front 4 are not working well together - too often Chadli, Eriksen and Lamela often all move into the centre with no width and its often worse if Soldado plays as he also tends to play centrally - for all his many faults Adebayor often strays to the left wing so not adding as much congestion in the centre (when he puts the effort in of course).

if we can sort out the AM's better with one of them (at least) providing width (and preferably all 3 interchanging positions) there will be less problem for the CM's to move the ball forward quickly. If that does not happen then IMO the solution is to have 3 in the middle - with probably one dedicated DM (Stambouli looks the obvious choice) - and sacrificing one of the AM's who are duplicating themselves in the central areas by always cutting in. BTW although Walker/Rose could provide width as FB's the bunching in the middle will not, so the AM's still need sorting.

Coming back to your comment oin Capoue though, before Mason started to partner him, the constant issue was that the ball was not being moved forward quickly enough - Poch commented it as a problem - but that issue seems to have gone away with Mason's inclusion. Coincidence - I think not.

Mason puts in a full shift including making tackles and interceptions, so maybe the question is who should partner Mason - a pure DM or (except the best sides) could someone like Bentaleb who offers both passing skills as well as a bit of bite be the partner - its a question made pertinant by Capoue's poor form over the last 4 - 5 weeks which means we do need a change.

I've discounted Dembele as his slow passiing and indifferent form would take us backwards - longer term I'd include Veljkovic as a possibile option however not convinced Poch would without a little more experience
 

spurs9

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Aug 31, 2012
Messages
8,507
I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.
Why is Dier your preferred partner for Verts? He has only played CB for us 29 mins in the league and 1 game in the Europa, so surely you can't have seen enough to convince you?
 

cliff jones

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Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
2,090
Lloris 4 one good save, another poor palm out instead of finger tip for a corner and two or three spills/poor punches.
Dier 5 often faced with two on one, doesn't have the game to play wing back which this system effectively demands
Davies 7 only got done once and circulated the ball simply and effectively
Fazio 6 good in the air but give me the willies on the deck
Jan 6 sluggish, nice wind up for their red, need him to bring the ball out like the old Jan
Dembele 5 sluggish, caught out two or three times, needs gametime, has good presence
Mason 7 worked his bollox off, moved the ball quickly and often incisively, got stuck in
Eriksen 8 took the initiative, dribbling, crossing, shooting all impressive
Lamela 7 looked mobile and more solid, one or two dodgy touches, should have hit the target with his chance
Kane 6 busy, slotted home well, should have buried the header too, needs to lift his head a bit more on the ball
Soldado 5 worked quite hard, poor connection for his best chance, not happening for him
Chiriches 7 got forward well, good technique, only the odd misplaced pass
Lennon 7 stretched them, looked bothered, actually whipped a peach of a cross in for Kane
Paulinho 5 passed short and easy, did nothing more

Poch 8 good team selection, good subs at the right time

Daws typical brave rearguard, vulnerable to movement, Hudd, couple of bad fouls, Jake, great strike, awful tackle on Mason more deserving of a red than the type of offence committed by Gaston or Becks back in the day

nicking away wins not our problem. desperate for a good first 20 against Everton.
 

Mr Pink

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Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,722
I like Cabaye and Schniederlin. I wouldn't mind if we signed either, but I really believe that we have the players here, the trick is just getting them knowing what they are doing and working as a collective as a team and a duo CM2.

There are no individuals in that Southampton team that are much better than ones we have here, some not as good. Schnierderlin is probably the only one and it's marginal (think about all the games he's played against us - last game Capoue was MOTM that day if I remember - Edit just looked and he was by a mile 106 votes ) The difference is they are more balanced. They have a settled defence and CM that works as a duo in tandem, they all work cohesively for each other and they do simple things on and off the ball pretty efficiently.
I really like Mason, but you not think Cabaye would offer that bit more vision etc from those positions in the centre?
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

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Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
10,756
Did you watch the Villa v Southampton game tonight ? Very interesting comparison with us right now. They play a similar formation. Our average possession and passing stats are almost identical as teams this season. As are many other of our stats. Shots per game/shots on target/tackles per game/interceptions per game. Generally, we are playing very similar football to them. The biggest difference for me was some of the things I have mentioned in those various posts above.

They have two full backs who do exactly what you need in the system we/Soton are trying to play. They push up and constantly look to provide width and attacking options, but both get back pretty well.

Their CM combination is positionally and defensively more disciplined. You can see why Pochettino played Capoue for every game until the weekend. His game and Schniederlin's is incredibly similar, they are very close in passing/comletion/long passing/tackles/interception stats as well, these two are both in the top 6 passing CM's. They play similar passes in similar ways. The difference being that Schniederlin has the more positionally disciplined and defensively aware Wanyama next to him and they really pivot much better as a duo. One rarely leaves the other exposed. Whereas Mason chases the ball around and is far more offensively inclined and less positionally disciplined.

I like both these CM's (and Bentaleb) but no matter who partners Mason or which pair ends up being chosen, Pochettino has to get the pair of them operating in tandem, aware of each other, aware of the full backs bombing on, and doing the fundamental things better, being positionally disciplined as a pair, not one constantly being left holding while the other one chases the ball around willy nilly. If Mason is the future, he's got to do the job properly, it's great tearing around making loads of passes (Capoue actually still averages more passes per game than Mason) but he must do the ugly, boring stuff too. And at the moment Mason isn't exactly creating much, his passing isn't super incisive or visionary so the there isn't enough payoff for the compromise his indiscipline creates. Even if we bring in Stambouli, Mason still has to fulfil the complete remit of a CM2 as you allude to as well in the bit in bold. This is what Schienerlin and Wanyama both do.

They have this really settled back 4 that seem to have played every week, they all know each other, and this really shows. We haven't played a back 4 two games running it seems.

I think the other most noticeable difference is that they have few players who look to dribble or hang on the the ball. I looked and they are bottom of the dribbles stats. We are third for dribbles in the league. This isn't necessarily bad on us, Chelsea are 2nd for example. But noticeable.

I hope we can get the full back sorted out. Get our two CB's (Vertonghen/Dier IMO) and get that CM2 - whoever they may be - working properly.

All of those facets being more right would get us looking as cohesive as them. And much of it is very fixable. We have the player within our squad or development group.

I think we should get Pritchard back, he's a terrier who has skill and vision but also works his nuts off, perfect for Pochettino. Our options for striker for the rest of the season should be Kane, Chadli and Soldado.
I agree with all of this. I still think we have a massive problem with our full backs even when Walker is back in the team. He will help our problem with width but together with Rose they are just not productive enough for such a key position. And the more I think back about Southampton of last season, the more I realise how important Shaw and Clyne/Chambers were to the way they played. I don't feel any of our full backs are at their level. Indeed, I actually think the fullbacks were also partly responsible for our dysfunctional attacking play under AVB. Hopefully Poch can help develop Walker and Rose to become less erratic but I have my doubts.

Again you are right to highlight our central midfield problem. Ideally we need a dynamic, positionally disciplined, strong tackling ball player next to Mason. Sounds like everything Schneiderlin is, right? He would be great but is definitely not worth £27m and I doubt Levy will pay that anyway. Going back to something you mentioned in the summer BC - I am starting to come around to your suggestion that Bentaleb could develop into this player. He has definitely got the physicality, dynamism and ball-playing ability. If Poch can develop his positional discipline, tracking of runners and tackling I really think him and Mason could make a good CM pairing.
 

Blake Griffin

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Oct 3, 2011
Messages
12,063
I agree with all of this. I still think we have a massive problem with our full backs even when Walker is back in the team. He will help our problem with width but together with Rose they are just not productive enough for such a key position. And the more I think back about Southampton of last season, the more I realise how important Shaw and Clyne/Chambers were to the way they played. I don't feel any of our full backs are at their level. Indeed, I actually think the fullbacks were also partly responsible for our dysfunctional attacking play under AVB. Hopefully Poch can help develop Walker and Rose to become less erratic but I have my doubts.
if by "productive" you mean goals and assists. shaw, clyne and chambers combined for 0 goals and 5 assists ... not exactly dani alves like production.
 

mpickard2087

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Joined
Jun 13, 2008
Messages
19,506
Yes I'm also not convinced Walker coming back will solve all the problems. I'm really looking forward to his 'rush into a good position, then inexplicably stop, dither on the ball for 5 seconds, eventually decide to cross, fail to clear his marker with it...' move that he does about 500 times a game...
 

JUSTINSIGNAL

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Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
10,756
if by "productive" you mean goals and assists. shaw, clyne and chambers combined for 0 goals and 5 assists ... not exactly dani alves like production.
No. Just making good decisions in attacking areas. When to take on the man, when to pass, when to cross. I think the Southampton full backs made/make better decisions in this respect, which have a productive influence on attacking moves. Rather than Walker/Rose who either take on their man and are easily dispossessed or attempt a across and shank it or smash it into the first man.
 

Mr Pink

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Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
44,722
I agree, full backs are such vital positions nowadays. In most teams they need to be able to defend diligently and attack purposefully.

And in Poch's system they're vital. Not just providing width, but contributing intelligently to the attacking play from those wider areas.

Look at Everton who we're playing this Sunday. Their full backs, in Baines and Coleman, piss all over ours.

Its a position we need to improve on big time.
 
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