Ratings Vs Limassol (H)

Who was your MOTM?


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Jamturk

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Paulinho was my biggest disappointment in that game. He was off the pace, kept slowing things down, it was like the bad old AVB days at times. He did improve, and I do think he might have it in him to be a player in the first team because we've seen glimpses previously, but on current form he's neither a busy fuck off the ball, nor got much vision on it, basically he's a main reason behind the team's constipation. I'm honestly a bit baffled that you can have such an opposite idea, it's a bit like when you used to say Jenas was a busy fuck, and a player with the vision to make shit happen.
I watched the game very closely again this morning and though a bit rusty (understandably)

I think you are so way off in your opinion of Paulinho's performance that it must be biased and not at all objective.
 

Disconosebleed

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It is dangerous trying to press intensely for the full 90 mins. I don't remember the precise stats but Southampton last season gave away late goals (including v Spurs) and generally tired towards the end of matches. This early in the season and the system in particular, the players need to pace themselves. The skill is to be able to keep enough in the tank to be pressing at the end as much as the beginning (especially if we need a late goal). That means taking a few breathers or at least dropping the intensity and knowing when to do that, versus when to step it up. It's no surprise if individuals are catching their breath (looking lazy) at different times, when everybody is learning, and still acquiring match fitness. I was told that Lambert was like the lead dog pulling a sled. He set the pace and the others took their cue from him and his body language (this was from my Saints supporting cousin so no idea how well it would stand up to Gary Neville's analysis!).
The point of the high press is to get the ball back quickly, allowing you to retain possession for longer periods and make the opposition do the majority of the chasing. A team that is good at the high press and good at retaining possession (Dortmund being the obvious example) should in theory be in better shape than the opposition towards the end of the game, not worse.

Southampton's tiring towards the end of games was mainly because, while they worked tirelessly to regain the ball, they weren't particularly brilliant at keeping it once they'd won it, so they were having to do a lot more chasing. You would hope that with better technical players at Spurs, we would be better at keeping the ball - if Pochettino can instil the same fitness and work ethic at Spurs as he did at Southampton, we shouldn't suffer from the same tiredness issues in the latter stages of games. So far the signs are good, but the standard of opposition has to be taken into account - it's a huge indictment of QPR's performance and attitude that despite dominating possession on Sunday, we also covered way more ground than them.
 
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I thought that in general the team pressed well in the first half against QPR, we have to rememeber that this style is new to our players and will take time to develop. You suggested that Eriksen was lazy off the ball, I merely highlighted that the ground he covered during the game would suggest otherwise.

Absolutely, I'm not expecting miracles, just calling it how I'm seeing it.
 

sloth

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I watched the game very closely again this morning and though a bit rusty (understandably)

I think you are so way off in your opinion of Paulinho's performance that it must be biased and not at all objective.
I don't have a grudge to bear against Paulinho, if that's what you mean. Search for Paulinho under my name and I dare say you'll barely find a comment one way or another, and if you do there will tend to be praise and little criticism as I don't on the whole believe in picking out individuals unless to give credit. On this occasion I'm talking about Paulinho because I'm genuinely surprised by the positive reviews the team and he have got for yesterday. I sat three back from the touchline in the East stand in the first half and got a close up view of Paulinho throughout, it meant i got a view of the whole pitch too, and who was available and who wasn't etc. I saw him multiple times receive the ball in space, but without looking he kept playing the ball back the way it came when he didn't need to, or turn back when there was no need, or spin, or lay-off all the time in acres of space and with other advanced players also in acres of space if he'd just had a glance and taken the time to notice what was around him. As I say he stood out in that department and we commented on it a lot.

In terms of the pressing I didn't see it, not from anyone particularly, and so not from him either.

Limassol were League One opposition imo, and the one goal lead, followed by another in the first half burst the bubble and made the second half a procession. They basically gave up, and we got our tails up and so in the second half they kept making stupid errors, and we were encouraged to press. First half, when it was more in the balance we didn't not impose ourselves, we did not press and for me the senior players were who I was most disappointed with. The mistake which gave the ball to Paulinho with which he set up Harry Kane happened right in front of me, and as Mr P pointed out, it was nothing to do with any defensive work from us, just a low quality player making a typical error.

To this I'd add that all of us know that Paulinho had a poor season last year, we know he can play however because we've seen the games, but for whatever reason he's out of form, let's hope he rediscovers it, and yesterday was by no means a bad match from him, but neither was it a sign that he's back to something better than he's been. It was an OK performance, amidst an OK performance by the team against second raters from a crap overseas league.
 

sloth

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I don't have a completely opposite idea where Paulinho is concerned, I think he definitely has his limitations and is not smartest or quickest cookie, but in the context of the conversation about the pressing in advanced areas in this game I thought he contributed reasonably well to the collective approach off the ball.
You said that you thought Paulinho should start against Liverpool.
 
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You said that you thought Paulinho should start against Liverpool.
My exact words were "maybe" Paulinho for the CM3. But yes, if we were to play a 433 I would probably play Paulinho on the right because I think the CM3 offers compensations for his deficiencies and provides us with more possibility of midfield control but with the threat of goals from midfield (that really only he brings of our CM's) to counteract taking out one of the more attacking midfielders in the advanced 3 of a 4231.
 

sloth

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My exact words were "maybe" Paulinho for the CM3. But yes, if we were to play a 433 I would probably play Paulinho on the right because I think the CM3 offers compensations for his deficiencies and provides us with more possibility of midfield control but with the threat of goals from midfield (that really only he brings of our CM's) to counteract taking out one of the more attacking midfielders in the advanced 3 of a 4231.
Given the 12 months Paulinho's had, including his dire performances over the summer in the world cup, and given how much better the team played against proper PL opposition than it did in this match against mediocre League One quality opposition yesterday, then I can't for the life of me think what you think Paulinho brings to the table in an off the ball sense that Chadli doesn't, nor even more why you think he offers more of a threat in an attacking sense?
 
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Given the 12 months Paulinho's had, including his dire performances over the summer in the world cup, and given how much better the team played against proper PL opposition than it did in this match against mediocre League One quality opposition yesterday, then I can't for the life of me think what you think Paulinho brings to the table in an off the ball sense that Chadli doesn't, nor even more why you think he offers more of a threat in an attacking sense?

It's not a simple straight forward comparison. It's about changing the dynamics to achieve the best outcome. A win.

It's not a simple case of swapping Chadli at ALM 4231 for Paulinho ALM in a 4231. It's about re-shaping the structure to achieve an aim, which hopefully would result in a better outcome.

Your forward players have more chance to effect a game if they are seeing the ball. But IMO in this game - not every game - to see more ball we need to strengthen the CM area from what is our norm CM2 4231 structure with the players we have. So that creates a conundrum. To do this I need to borrow from another area on the pitch, so I am merely trying to mitigate this loan the best way possible. Who of all our CM's offers the most in the opponents third/box ? For all his deficiencies (which I acknowledge) that is still Paulinho (who once again assisted and scored last night).
 

sloth

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It's not a simple straight forward comparison. It's about changing the dynamics to achieve the best outcome. A win.

It's not a simple case of swapping Chadli at ALM 4231 for Paulinho ALM in a 4231. It's about re-shaping the structure to achieve an aim, which hopefully would result in a better outcome.

Your forward players have more chance to effect a game if they are seeing the ball. But IMO in this game - not every game - to see more ball we need to strengthen the CM area from what is our norm CM2 4231 structure with the players we have. So that creates a conundrum. To do this I need to borrow from another area on the pitch, so I am merely trying to mitigate this loan the best way possible. Who of all our CM's offers the most in the opponents third/box ? For all his deficiencies (which I acknowledge) that is still Paulinho (who once again assisted and scored last night).
I think as with certain dubious pharmaceutical companies you've come up with a problem to fit the cure you'd like to sell to us... and as is often the case, the cure doesn't actually work particularly well anyway...

I don't see having Paulinho in a CM3 strengthens you over and above having Eriksen, Chadli or Lamela dropping into it (depending who happens to be in the centre at the time the ball is lost), imo you are bringing in a player of dubious attack and defence qualities for players of less dubious attack and defence qualities, playing each in a weaker position to accommodate him, making the team both weaker in defence and in attack, all the while going against the grain of what our manager has tried to install, and against his philosophy.
 

davidmatzdorf

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Given the 12 months Paulinho's had, including his dire performances over the summer in the world cup, and given how much better the team played against proper PL opposition than it did in this match against mediocre League One quality opposition yesterday, then I can't for the life of me think what you think Paulinho brings to the table in an off the ball sense that Chadli doesn't, nor even more why you think he offers more of a threat in an attacking sense?
As I wrote above, goals and assists seem to follow Paulinho around. Even when he looks out of sorts, he still scores every 2-3 matches. Clint Dempsey is a bit like that, too, in a very different style: he drives spectators crazy, but then he pops up with a key goal.

I thought Paulinho played very well last night, especially after [I surmise] Pochettino had some words with him at half time, and I wonder if the penny has dropped that he can't wander around in a languid manner for 30 minutes of every game if he's going to succeed in English football. We won't know until we see him playing against more challenging opposition.
 
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I think as with certain dubious pharmaceutical companies you've come up with a problem to fit the cure you'd like to sell to us... and as is often the case, the cure doesn't actually work particularly well anyway...

I don't see having Paulinho in a CM3 strengthens you over and above having Eriksen, Chadli or Lamela dropping into it (depending who happens to be in the centre at the time the ball is lost), imo you are bringing in a player of dubious attack and defence qualities for players of less dubious attack and defence qualities, playing each in a weaker position to accommodate him, making the team both weaker in defence and in attack, all the while going against the grain of what our manager has tried to install, and against his philosophy.
No, I am trying sell an inoculation for measles, mumps and rubella and you're trying to panic everyone by telling them if they have it, it will give them autism.
 
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