Match Ratings Ratings vs Manu

[Gilzeanking]

I just don't think incidents were highlighted and replayed from a thousand angles like they are now. I remember watching players kick lumps out of each other, every corner, every CB had a handful of someone, if they were any good anyway.

I'm not talking about slide tackles and general kicks , yes it was rough .

I thought I'd been clear that it is the ubiquitous use of the arms to manoeuvre opponents that I'm on about. You didn't need to have a prizefighter physique to dribble past an opponent back then. Look at slimline stars like Best or Bowles ,Cook ,Greaves or Conn from back in the day. They could concentrate on dribbling the ball , not pushing defenders out of the way or clawing defender's hands off .

There has to be, in the laws of the game, clauses that prohibit the use of arms to gain advantage and these need to be reimposed because it can only get worse as refs allow it more.

And back on the match Pogba simply pushed Dembele off the ball . Take a look at his straight arm out as he arrives. Dembele's mistake was to play football against a rugby tactic . How is that legal ?

Edit : OK I've had a gander and , as expected , LAW 12 specifically prohibits the use of arms to gain advantage .

ex ref JimGordon says ''Basically, a player can't use his hands for anything that affects an opponent, while playing the game.'

Clear enough ??

 

[Flashspur]

Seriously there is a lot of bloodletting on here and I understand that perfectly. It’s the emotion that gets you and that is what makes us all passionate fans.

Try to look at this in the context of a 38 away game season where we have punched above our weight. A significant improvement in CL performance. Another top 4 finish. This is a slow progression but it is a progression. I acknowledge there are weaknesses - the FBs, CM and a decent competitor or back up for Kane so we aren’t so dependent on his fitness and form. I think Poch and the boys have done well all things considered. Lighten up you lot. We are doing the best we can with our limitations. Things will get better.

 

[JonnySpurs]

The most important one is that Pochettino is a wonderful coach but he's definitely not the smartest in terms of managing his resources. Fore instance, I just do not understand the logic of starting Son in midweek and leaving out Lamela only to do the same yesterday. If he was planning on playing Son against ManU, why not rest him and play Lamela Tuesday? Better still, why not play Lamela against ManU, he's fresher and in better form?

Why, following last year, our best year in the PL, with Wanyama in CM, has he reverted to the belt and braces of Dier. With Wanyama we get a player who can support the press but is also dynamic enough to recover and support the defence when the opposition counter, provides Dembele with a more energetic foil, enabling him to be more of an 8 and less of the 6. Dier was Ok yesterday, but the tactical effect of playing him and Dembele, means we don't have two CM's who can move forwards with the ball, Dembele has to do more work, and ends up fucked after 60 mins, or worse, ends up twisting himself in knots like yesterday.

Great review BC, sectioned out the above to say that I particularly agree regarding Son & Lamela.

In respect of the 2nd paragraph, the only thing I would say in defence of Poch not playing Wanyama (who incidentally I totally agree is a better option in CM than Dier) is that when he's played this season Wanyama has not looked himself IMO. The injury that derailed his pre-season and kept him out early on seems to have lingered and when he has played I've not really felt he's been sharp and powerful like he was last year.

Hopefully he gets a good pre-season under his belt and is back to his best next season and he can play regularly.

As far as Dier, I actually thought he was very good. Granted he's not a dynamic passer of the ball and our tempo can suffer but I don't expect that from him really. I thought he was strong in the tackle, made an amazing last ditch challenge on Rashford, hit the post and generally contributed a lot. That said, I do feel like his future should be at CB where he could be outstanding once he focuses on it and accepts that's his best position.

 

[stevenqoz]

Our season has turned on very short periods of time where dropping the tempo harmed us. Both the home game with Juve and yesterday's semi saw us dominating only to ease up slightly allowing them back into it. This probably ties up with the effective or non-effective use of substitutions.....to keep a high tempo throughout probably requires earlier use of subs. Now we know

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Guys, have a listen to the Guardian podcast from Monday, brilliant debate about our semi final, Barney Ronay really puts Barry Glendenning (who was spouting the bottler bollocks) in his place around the 30-35 min mark.

 

[ultimateloner]

We can't play when Dembele doesn't perform and he didn't this game. His performance dropped off the longer the game went.
Valencia had Son in his pocket all game.
Vorm could have saved the 2nd goal.

I dont get why Wanyama didn't play; should be an absolute starter in CM with Dembele. I suspect injury/fitness issues.

This loss reflects a lack of depth in CM. We need to buy someone in that area but there are few viable alternatives.

For what it's worth Bentalab/Onomah/Mason/Winks etc etc..none have the ball-winning + ball-carrying capabilities Dembele has. Until we somehow replace this we will struggle.

 

[Trix]

We can't play when Dembele doesn't perform and he didn't this game. His performance dropped off the longer the game went.
Valencia had Son in his pocket all game.
Vorm could have saved the 2nd goal.

I dont get why Wanyama didn't play; should be an absolute starter in CM with Dembele. I suspect injury/fitness issues.

This loss reflects a lack of depth in CM. We need to buy someone in that area but there are few viable alternatives.

For what it's worth Bentalab/Onomah/Mason/Winks etc etc..none have the ball-winning + ball-carrying capabilities Dembele has. Until we somehow replace this we will struggle.

Not sure it was that he didn't perform more that Mourinho knew he was the key to stopping us. Yes he made a couple of mistakes, but everytime he got the ball he was crowded out. It looked a very deliberate tactic on Yaniteds part. Sit deep to stop the through balls and double/triple up on Dembele.

 

[zoneD]

...I'll give Trippier MOTM, as he gave his best effort in a game where nobody else was willing/able to step up...
...still doesn't make up for the fact that our FBs are just not good enough at this level...
COYS

 

[lukespurs7]

1) If we were serious about that game Lloris should’ve played and not Vorm
2)Full backs need to be upgraded said it for ages.
3)Sanchez is good but not yet Toby level
4) Dier & Dembele together is too defensive
5) Alli and Son aren’t consistent enough
6) Kane is either not fit or wants to leave, shouldn’t have been started 3 games in a row.
7) we STILL need better back-up attacking options especially a decent replacement for Kane!

 

[steve]

Guys, have a listen to the Guardian podcast from Monday, brilliant debate about our semi final, Barney Ronay really puts Barry Glendenning (who was spouting the bottler bollocks) in his place around the 30-35 min mark.

Can you gives us a summary please?

 

[jonathanhotspur]

1) If we were serious about that game Lloris should’ve played and not Vorm
2)Full backs need to be upgraded said it for ages.
3)Sanchez is good but not yet Toby level
4) Dier & Dembele together is too defensive
5) Alli and Son aren’t consistent enough
6) Kane is either not fit or wants to leave, shouldn’t have been started 3 games in a row.
7) we STILL need better back-up attacking options especially a decent replacement for Kane!

Do you think Kane has been rattled by the negativity surrounding his claiming our second goal against Stoke?

Did you catch these quotes from Vorm?

“I played through the tournament and I think I’ve done alright,” he added. “I train hard every day and if I get the chance to play a semi-final like this that gives me the confidence but it’s also something I think I deserve in the way I act as a professional and as a team-mate and a person. I enjoyed every moment and it’s a shame it’s come to an end.”

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/michel-vorm-on-the-semi-final-230418/

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Can you gives us a summary please?

It actually went on for quite a while but to summarise, Glendening started on with the "you can't say they don't bottle these games, that's the 8th FA Cup semi-final they've lost in a row". Ronay countered immediately with "but what have 6 of those losses got to do with this team and coach?". He then basically went on to counter the whole bottling narrative with some well articulated logic, such as a team like Spurs can lose semi-finals because at that stage you often come up against better teams, that this was just another tight game between two very good teams and the superior quality of a couple of the individuals and the fact that Utd's better quality depth of squad mean they can arrive at games like this at this stage in better nick. He also pointed out that Mourinho learnt from the previous game and changed his tactics, whereas Poch didn't and was further hampered by fitness issues over key players like Kane etc, meaning we couldn't even play the same tactics - as previously when mullering ManU - as well.

He started taking the piss out Glendening for suggesting it wasn't just about football issues, saying "what are you suggesting juju or a witches curse".

Ronay also said that he found the need to qualify every manager or club by whether they win cups or not as daft. You can be a good coach, a good team without qualifying it with a cup.

It was a good exchange that definitely shut Glendening up and made him sound a bit of a twat.


To add to this I would point to things like us overturning nearly three decades of hoodoo at Chelsea a couple of weeks ago as evidence that it's not bollocks or bottle we lack.

I think the truth is that results against the best teams will always be harder to come by, and it's a testament to how far we have come that that goes for them against us as it does for us against them now.

I do think that Poch has flaws, but his strengths mean that those flaws are invariably only found out occasionally and under the toughest tests, and that pretty much goes for every coach, Guardiola included (and he's in a league of his own).

 

[steve]

It actually went on for quite a while but the summarise, Glendening started on with the "you can't say they don't bottle these games, that's the 8th FA Cup semi-final they've lost in a row". Ronay countered immediately with "but what have 6 of those losses got to do with this team and coach?". He then basically went on to counter the whole bottling narrative with some well articulated logic, such as a team like Spurs can lose semi-finals because at that stage you often come up against better teams, that this was just another tight game between two very good teams and the superior quality of a couple of the individuals and the fact that Utd's better quality depth of squad mean they can arrive at games like this at this stage in better nick. He also pointed out that Mourinho learnt from the previous game and changed his tactics, whereas Poch didn't and was further hampered by fitness issues over key players like Kane etc, meaning we couldn't even play the same tactics - as previously when mullering ManU - as well.

He started taking the piss out Glendening for suggesting it wasn't just about football issues, saying "what are you suggesting juju or a witches curse".

Ronay also said that he found the need to qualify every manager or club by whether they win cups or not as daft. You can be a good coach, a good team without qualifying it with a cup.

It was a good exchange that definitely shut Glendening up and made him sound a bit of a twat.


To add to this I would point to things like us overturning nearly three decades of hoodoo at Chelsea a couple of weeks ago as evidence that it's not bollocks or bottle we lack.

I think the truth is that results against the best teams will always be harder to come by, and it's a testament to how far we have come that that goes for them against us as it does for us against them now.

I do think that Poch has flaws, but his strengths mean that those flaws are invariably only found out occasionally and under the toughest tests, and that pretty much goes for every coach, Guardiola included (and he's in a league of his own).

Thanks, nice to hear some intelligent punditry still exists, shame it's the exception and not the rule..

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thanks, nice to hear some intelligent punditry still exists, shame it's the exception and not the rule..

Not sure you ever listen to them, but there's often good stuff on the Guardian, The Times and The Totally Football show. Also the European Football Show and The Euro League Podcast.

 

[Shadydan]

Can you gives us a summary please?

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ers-surviving-nuclear-fallout-football-weekly

 

[lukespurs7]

Do you think Kane has been rattled by the negativity surrounding his claiming our second goal against Stoke?

Did you catch these quotes from Vorm?

“I played through the tournament and I think I’ve done alright,” he added. “I train hard every day and if I get the chance to play a semi-final like this that gives me the confidence but it’s also something I think I deserve in the way I act as a professional and as a team-mate and a person. I enjoyed every moment and it’s a shame it’s come to an end.”

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/michel-vorm-on-the-semi-final-230418/

Yea I think it has rattled him + he’s got a new baby so probably sleepless nights + World Cup to stay fit for + 4 games in a row + rushed back from an injury so big combo there.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Not sure it was that he didn't perform more that Mourinho knew he was the key to stopping us. Yes he made a couple of mistakes, but everytime he got the ball he was crowded out. It looked a very deliberate tactic on Yaniteds part. Sit deep to stop the through balls and double/triple up on Dembele.

I don't think he particularly targeted Dembele per se, he just learnt from the last game and went 433, with Matic and the busy little fucker Herrera matching up, meaning they had an extra body in there with Pogba. Last game it was effectively Matic on his own. He definitely didn't want us doing what we did last game, but I don't think he went heavily on Dembele, as Mourinho knows it's Eriksen that's the danger and usually sticks someone on him.

 

[guiltyparty]

I don't think he particularly targeted Dembele per se, he just learnt from the last game and went 433, with Matic and the busy little fucker Herrera matching up, meaning they had an extra body in there with Pogba. Last game it was effectively Matic on his own. He definitely didn't want us doing what we did last game, but I don't think he went heavily on Dembele, as Mourinho knows it's Eriksen that's the danger and usually sticks someone on him.

I mentioned it in/game, they were swarming Dembele for a while, defo.

 

[Trix]

I don't think he particularly targeted Dembele per se, he just learnt from the last game and went 433, with Matic and the busy little fucker Herrera matching up, meaning they had an extra body in there with Pogba. Last game it was effectively Matic on his own. He definitely didn't want us doing what we did last game, but I don't think he went heavily on Dembele, as Mourinho knows it's Eriksen that's the danger and usually sticks someone on him.

Thing is once you stop Eriksen's through balls, the only other way we have of making space is with Dembele's forward drives. Stop them both and effectively you stop us playing completely. So important now to get someone else in that can play intelligently from a bit deeper.

 

[onthetwo]

I don't think he particularly targeted Dembele per se, he just learnt from the last game and went 433, with Matic and the busy little fucker Herrera matching up, meaning they had an extra body in there with Pogba. Last game it was effectively Matic on his own. He definitely didn't want us doing what we did last game, but I don't think he went heavily on Dembele, as Mourinho knows it's Eriksen that's the danger and usually sticks someone on him.

Sounds like a similar debate to that on this weeks Spurs Show, Rob Easton (IIRC) asking similar questions about the resignation from our team once we went 2-1 down. Classic Mourinho of course in terms of shutting the game down but the lack of reaction/leadership from our team was the main concern.