Ratings vs Palace

Discussion in 'Match Ratings Archive' started by Bulletspur, Dec 6, 2014.

MOM

  1. Lloris

  2. Dier

  3. Fazio

  4. Verts

  5. Davies

  6. Lamela

  7. Bentaleb

  8. Mason

  9. Eriksen

  10. Kane

  11. Soldado

  12. Chadli

  13. Paulinho

  14. Lennon

  15. Undecided

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    Well its no coincidence that a lot of people agree that we're better off with him in the side at the moment.

    But yeah, I guess we're all way off beam with that.
     
  2. Bulletspur

    Bulletspur The Reasonable Advocate

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    Again because you were at the match your opinion should carry more weight than those who weren't? Your post seem to suggest this. While I don't necessarily disagree with your opinion on the Lamela debate, this "I was there" stance is garbage.
     
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  3. beats1

    beats1 Well-Known Member

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    We are better of with him in the side because of fullback situation. The issue with the attack is that the fullbacks are far too deep to work with the inverted wingers. You either have to put wingers on or change the fullbacks. Instead of pointless arguing, Ill show people gary neville style

    Our fullbacks have to push up forward because our best chance created from Lamela happened as a result of it but lets look at why the chance was created.

    Here you can clearly see that Dier pushes up and Lamela takes up more of an AM space. The LB(ward) has a choice moments before the pass either follow his designated man (lamela) or close down the player that he is nearest to with the ball.
    Screen Shot 2014-12-08 at 18.17.54.png
    He close down Dier this then gives Hangeland a decision to make, as the CB he should shift the defence to his left, he does but gets caught flat footed but he needs the LW to carry on tracking his run, he doesnt
    Screen Shot 2014-12-08 at 18.10.28.png
    Lamela plays the dummy and carries on the run with the LB in no mans land and gets on the return from soldado, the defence is struggling to get back in time and Kelly(RB) notices he is way too far from his man and mason is about to exploit that space
    Screen Shot 2014-12-08 at 18.28.16.png
    Lamela then puts a good ball in to the box that mason should of scored from, of course the ref ruled it offside but that was unlucky but the bit of play was what we need to do
    Screen Shot 2014-12-08 at 18.29.19.png

    When the fullbacks don't push forward this is what happens
    Screen Shot 2014-12-08 at 18.35.27.png
    In the space of 20 yards, you have 9 Palace players keeping their shape(ish) with a row of 4 and 5 taking on 4 tottenham attackers. They are comfortable with those odds even with Mason joining in. Meanwhile our back four is staying back with the threat of the fast wingers

    Against Everton we had both Lennon and Vlad providing width on the right on saturday we had no one, the width is basically asking the opposition defence a question to want to give me time on the ball and space to run in to or close me down and make the defence shift and/or become less narrow.

    Then our players can try and get in between the defence and have more space to create a chance otherwise they can just stay narrow and shut up shop with nothing to worry about.

    Lennon also adds the option of the cross, which from the current fullbacks and players have been pathetic during that match but he still needs numbers in the box, which is pathetic also from us tbh. Only mason and one or two others at a time are busting a nut to get on the end of the ball
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
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  4. davidmatzdorf

    davidmatzdorf Front Page Gadfly

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    Which is probably why I didn't say that.

    He made one really good tackle at an important moment.
     
  5. iluvsteffenfreund

    iluvsteffenfreund Well-Known Member

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    All I mean by this was another example of people sharing the same opinion. That is all. All of those at the game seemed to share exactly the same opinion?! Coincidence ?
     
  6. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    I like loads of what you say, the stuff about full backs is what I and others (@mpickard2087 @thinktank and others) have been saying all season. And if it wasn't Lennon you were talking about I would agree with your logic re a wide player in the absence of an attacking full back. But it's Lennon. He doesn't create from wide areas much at all, frequently drifts inside negating the "wide" argument, often hides from receiving the ball and even defensively, as we saw against Chelsea, isn't always very reliable.

    I would much rather Pochettino started playing McQueen or KWP - at least until Walker returns - than started playing Lennon in a starting eleven at the expense of Lamela, who I think still contributes more than Lennon does almost every game.

    I don't know if Lamela is ever going to be the real deal but Lennon isn't going to propel us forwards as a team, so I'd rather find a better solution.

    I don't mind Lennon starting the odd game or being used as an impact sub, but this clamour for him to start now I think is misplaced and flies in the face of years of evidence to the contrary and will just hinder the development of this young squad.
     
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  7. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    Like all the people that used to sing "he plays on the left" to Redknapp about Bale you mean ?
     
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  8. beats1

    beats1 Well-Known Member

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    Lennon might not be creating alot but the fact he hugs the touchline and is willing to run to the end line more than Lamela(yes lennon also spends alot of time inside) means the LB has to make a decision, either stay narrow or close lennon down, instantly that means there are more gaps in the back four of the opposing team unless they all work as a unit and get protection from their DM to cover the runs of oncoming midfielders in to the channels
     
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  9. Gilzeanking

    Gilzeanking Well-Known Member

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    OK this discussion has been running a while ,prolly about to end haha .

    Anyway , my take is this...Beating defences often occurs when something they don't expect happens . A team is on the attack/has a corner etc and the oppo makes a lightning quick counter before the defence is set . OR a pass comes in and a forward pretends to play it and lets it through to another forward who's suddenly got space . OR a good dribbler goes past a couple of defenders OR (one of my faves) An attacker goes to shoot and defenders throw themselves in front of the ball...and its just a feint to shoot leaving the defence in disarray and the attacker free .

    There's numerous other examples of defences being served up with the unexpected of course , but I'm sure my drift is clear .

    So , what we have in Lamela is someone who may do something unexpected that could surprise a defence . I recall one of his assists was a pass made while deliberately looking the other way , therefore creating space within a packed defence for a goal to be scored .
    Its almost like he's permanently looking at ways to bamboozle defences with ambitious surprises . This is one of the hardest things to do in football so yes , he often fails and fails very visibly (Brits hate failed dribbles almost more than anything ,partly why we have so few homegrown technical giants) . His passing stats won't look good compared to midfielders around him because of his overriding ambition .He's not big on sideways/backwards passes .

    So when judging him you need to balance his constant willingness to try the unexpected , along with his lively attitude to pressing and tackling against the downside of often being over ambitious and his plans often not coming off .

    You take your position on this as people here obviously are . Regarding Lennon his downside is that he's unlikely to serve up that special unexpected moment that unlocks defences . I've always thought that his greatest contribution to unexpectedness was that , with his speed , he would arrive somewhere a fraction of a second earlier than defences anticipate . He used to get to the byline in the old days ,but for some reason this has got much rarer . His plus points are a disciplined positional sense and quick feet .

    Its half time and its 0-0 Vs Palace . Which of these two is more likely to lead to us breaking down a resolute defence ?

    You pays yer money and you takes yer choice . For me ,a gambler , the overambitious, creative and often failing Lamela is at least , going to try for the unexpected..there's a chance his crazy schemes might, just once , come off .

    Lennon was unable to contribute offensively much, shame Chiriches wasn't available...he's got a bit of the unexpected about him and those two have looked good offensively down the right .

    So for me , on the day , v poor 1st half notwithstanding , its Lamela who stays on .

    (Other issues such as the need for protection of the hapless Dier etc being ignored for the moment)
     
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  10. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    This all day long beats.

    This is exactly what I've been saying, yet BC tries to twist it as if we're claiming he's some sort of wing wizard messiah.

    Nobody has claimed he's amazing, no one. All they're doing is pointing out, like you've just done, that his presence/threat in the wider areas affects the oppositions defensive strategy.

    I standby that I think BC underestimates the significance of that.
     
  11. 0-Tibsy-0

    0-Tibsy-0 Well-Known Member

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    In your ideal scenario, would you rather have an attacking fullback playing and pushing up providing width with a Lamela/Eriksen drifting inside, Or Lennon there to provide width?
     
  12. Mr Pink

    Mr Pink SC Supporter

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    Would rather have a very good full back, who can attack well and provide the width, crucial in Poch's system. When Walker returns to full fitness, it will be most welcome.

    Jealous of Southampton's full backs to be honest.

    But Lennon has definitely helped recently. All this bollox trying to undermine that, it grinds my gears.
     
  13. stevenqoz

    stevenqoz Well-Known Member

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    While I agree that we lacked effective wing play against Palace, it was only part of our problem . We actually lacked anyone willing to run the ball on any part of the field (apart from Forest Gump Lamela) this is a problem when you try to rely on a 'pass pass' game where the ball is not moved quickly enough /at any pace. It is predictable. Palace knew that no one was going to try something different....Eriksens nice nutmeg out on the left aside. In this game Dembele might have been the answer, against physically strong sides you need to have brave players willing to be brought down regularly....this is a way you can create pressure through the middle
     
  14. jezz

    jezz Well-Known Member

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    No plan B is my concern.
     
  15. Bus-Conductor

    Bus-Conductor SC Supporter

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    But Beats, he doesn't hug the touchline enough for this to be true, which is why his career (and I refer you strongly to the last 3 years of it) is littered with us not achieving what we should often with him in the side (i.e. failing to win 9 home games under Redknapp).

    We need full backs to provide width, making the space for the attacking midfielders or a very talented winger who actually does proper wingy stuff.

    To that ends I could make more of a case for playing Townsend left than I could for playing Lennon right. The fly in that ointment is that Townsend is a) a headless chicken and b) the laziest player defensively I've ever seen. But at least he provides a genuine threat to a full back from wide. Lennon does not.
     

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