Match Ratings Ratings vs Stoke

[yusrisafri]

I agree with most of this but disagree about the formation change being irrelevant to the improved press. Having three attacking midfielders a) gives us the extra man high up the pitch to charge their defenders and b) allows us to stretch our press in the final third across the width of the pitch, giving them fewer out-balls.

In the 343/ 352 the bulk of our team is in our own third when off the ball as the wingbacks fall back in line with the centre backs, the result being either that the whole team goes too deep to effectively press, or if it doesn’t we have huge spaces between attack and defence for the opposition to exploit.

In games where we will dominate possession I feel that the three centre back formations hinder us.

You sir, know your stuff well. This is spot on.



(Which makes me know my stuff well as well)

 

[walworthyid]

Was a treat to see Lamela today. What a player we have been missing. I wouldn’t start him yet. Ease him back and more of these cameos please.

I've been saying it the whole time he was out. He makes a huge difference to our team because he has a skill set that nobody else has. Moves the ball quickly, forward and with purpose. Above that he can see and execute those subtle little passes in and around the box. Once he is fully fit he is a nailed on starter for me. For home games I would put Alli in a cm2 with Son, Lamela and Eriksen in behind Kane.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Dele may not have played well again today but he always affects the game

Played the vital through ball to Sonny to run on and score the crucial 2nd goal that brought Stoke out and opened the flood gates

Son MOTM again today

Great to see Lamela back on the pitch again

Alli’s had one assist and zero goals in our previous 6 games (almost 20% of our season) a run which saw us pick up 5 points out of 24. During which time he also didn't always work hard enough, and was careless and wasteful.

This really isnt understanding Allis game. His passing completion stats have always been pretty poor in comparison to most midfield players. Think of him like an Athletico Madrid style player. He tries things that will lead to a great chance when they come off but they often dont come off because they are high risk high reward maneuvers.

He isnt there to pass the ball about but to create chances and press opponents. Look he made an outstanding pass for one of the goals he also ran and moved about and pulled defenders away creating space. No he didnt have a good game, and he is in a poor patch of form, but if you are using pass stats to make an argument of why Alli was bad you dont understand what makes Alli a useful player.

If you want everyone to pass the ball around with 98% passing stats we should bring AVB back.

I don't think this is really understanding the full dynamics of Alli. Even at his best, Alli is a very long way from being the type of player - a Ronaldo say - who is allowed to piss away the ball, continually make poor decisions that put pressure on his team mates and negatively effect the collective performance, and even if he was, we aren't a good enough team to accommodate that type of wonder player. But when he's not at his best and he's coughing up possession and wasting good situations repeatedly it's very valid to question whether his positive attributes, the "high risk" element is being balanced off with enough "high reward". Especially when we have other viable options.

That's where the passing stats have some relevance, because if the high risk stuff isn't yielding the high rewards and the rest of what he's doing - ie the basic game play for the team good such as helping to construct moves with passes - isn't great either then you have to take a view on the overall package he's bringing to the team.

This is where a player like Eriksen repeatedly makes himself more viable than Alli. He generally matches Alli for goals/assists productivity, but he also always exceeds Alli's contribution to everything else we do as a team, ie team play, off the ball work etc.

At some point a coach has to make a calculation. Is this player viable in relation to other options available. There is a point where the answer to that question for Alli won't always be yes. And that is not about misunderstanding Alli's game.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agree with most of this but disagree about the formation change being irrelevant to the improved press. Having three attacking midfielders a) gives us the extra man high up the pitch to charge their defenders and b) allows us to stretch our press in the final third across the width of the pitch, giving them fewer out-balls.

In the 343/ 352 the bulk of our team is in our own third when off the ball as the wingbacks fall back in line with the centre backs, the result being either that the whole team goes too deep to effectively press, or if it doesn’t we have huge spaces between attack and defence for the opposition to exploit.

In games where we will dominate possession I feel that the three centre back formations hinder us.

4231 isn't obligatory to operate a good high press. It isn't even the best formation to do it, 433 is much better, especially against a 3 man defence, which is what Stoke had. You can push the two pivoting 8's up (as well as FB's if your Guardiola for example) and press with 5 or even 7. Same if you play a 3331, you can still operate either a 4, 5 or 6 press.

As you know, I do believe formations play a vital role and can help to change the dynamics of games, and have mooted that as possible reason Poch has switched or used 4231 at times, but I have always believed even more that it's the application of the players, as instructed by the coach that matters even more.

I honestly don't think Poch changed to 4231 to improve the forward press, I think he did it because we have now lost TA and Sanchez and he had no other option. I would be a little bit worried if the only way he can get us pressing coherently was in a 4231 format. But what he did do today was make sure as a group we worked much harder without the ball, a working harder without the ball in those forward areas.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Alli’s had one assist and zero goals in our previous 6 games (almost 20% of our season) a run which saw us pick up 5 points out of 24. During which time he also didn't always work hard enough, and was careless and wasteful.




I don't think this is really understanding the full dynamics of Alli. Even at his best, Alli is a very long way from being the type of player - a Ronaldo say - who is allowed to piss away the ball, continually make poor decisions that put pressure on his team mates and negatively effect the collective performance, and even if he was, we aren't a good enough team to accommodate that type of wonder player. But when he's not at his best and he's coughing up possession and wasting good situations repeatedly it's very valid to question whether his positive attributes, the "high risk" element is being balanced off with enough "high reward". Especially when we have other viable options.

That's where the passing stats have some relevance, because if the high risk stuff isn't yielding the high rewards and the rest of what he's doing - ie the basic game play for the team good such as helping to construct moves with passes - isn't great either then you have to take a view on the overall package he's bringing to the team.

This is where a player like Eriksen repeatedly makes himself more viable than Alli. He generally matches Alli for goals/assists productivity, but he also always exceeds Alli's contribution to everything else we do as a team, ie team play, off the ball work etc.

At some point a coach has to make a calculation. Is this player viable in relation to other options available. There is a point where the answer to that question for Alli won't always be yes. And that is not about misunderstanding Alli's game.

Ok but you prefer him to Walker, right?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

4231 isn't obligatory to operate a good high press. It isn't even the best formation to do it, 433 is much better, especially against a 3 man defence, which is what Stoke had. You can push the two pivoting 8's up (as well as FB's if your Guardiola for example) and press with 5 or even 7. Same if you play a 3331, you can still operate either a 4, 5 or 6 press.

As you know, I do believe formations play a vital role and can help to change the dynamics of games, and have mooted that as possible reason Poch has switched or used 4231, but I have always believed even more that it's the application of the players, as instructed by the coach that matters even more.

I honestly don't think Poch changed to 4231 to improve the forward press, I think he did it because we have now lost TA and Sanchez and he had no other option. I would be a little bit worried if the only way he can get us pressing coherently was in a 4231 format. But what he did do today was make sure as a group we worked much harder without the ball, a working harder without the ball in those forward areas.

I accept that the 4231 isn't the only good pressing formation, and also that Pochettino didn't utilise it for any reason other than the lack of CB options, I'm just saying that the switch to 4231 improved our press. I definitely agree on 433, nobody was a bigger fanboy for Guardiola's Barca side than me. I just think that the 3421/ 343/ 352 formation has hindered our press and contributed to our drop off in tenacity, so regardless of the reasoning behind yesterday's 4231, I think that yesterday's 4231 switch improved our press, even if not by design.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I accept that the 4231 isn't the only good pressing formation, and also that Pochettino didn't utilise it for any reason other than the lack of CB options, I'm just saying that the switch to 4231 improved our press. I definitely agree on 433, nobody was a bigger fanboy for Guardiola's Barca side than me. I just think that the 3421/ 343/ 352 formation has hindered our press and contributed to our drop off in tenacity, so regardless of the reasoning behind yesterday's 4231, I think that yesterday's 4231 switch improved our press, even if not by design.

Maybe you are right, but I think Poch just put a rocket up their arse and that was far more influential than the format. I think if we'd have played 3331 it wouldn't have been much different, in fact you could have the FB's pushing up on the press too, which they can't quite do with the same verve in a back 4 format, but bottom line, for me whatever we played yesterday, Poch had them fired up to work, and any format would have seen the same application of off ball work.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

- Son was superb. He won 2 PL player of the month awards last year, I'm not sure we realise just how good he is.
- so good to see Dembele getting game time, and despite a few misplaced passes playing well. He and Winks need to be our CMs until victor is back.
- the press was loads better, we won the ball higher up the pitch and broke their lines before they could settle. It was lovely not having to watch Dier pass the ball from side to side for 90 minutes.
- Stoke were absolute garbage. We probably shouldn't get too excited just yet!

This is one of many reasons why he should always start ahead of Sissoko

 

[Bulletspur]

Don't think we've ever had such a landslide win. Son gets 175 votes with the rest totalling 12.​

240 and the rest 19 now. Could get worse!!

 

[davidmatzdorf]

One of the main reason why Son is in such a lethal period of form is that, for now at least, he has sorted out his first touch. It roughly doubles the number of times he can receive the ball and turn it into something constructive. Formerly, he pissed away so many promising positions by failing to control the incoming pass. Yesterday, on numerous occasions, he was able to bring the ball into a usable position while running at full tilt and the result would take him streaking away from the defenders. He's sustained the improvement over a sequence of games. He also looks a shade faster. He's still young, still developing.

The other player who seems to have adapted his game recently is Dembélé. We have become used to the typical Mousa move: collect the ball, shake off the attentions of 1-3 opponents, dribble 10-20m into the space he has just made at a modest pace and then, most of the time, lay the ball off sideways to someone with more passing vision. It's the same basic move, but the change is that he is making about three times as many passes forward toward one of the three attacking midfielders, instead of sideways to his midfield partner or a wing-back. Yesterday, he passed forward more often than not - often enough for me to notice the pattern. It's not as if he's making the kind of "vision" passes that we see from Eriksen, but it's the difference between killing momentum and sustaining it.

 

[Marvinspur]

So much patronising, so few posts.

Seems to be the rise of the rarely spotted lurker this week. Amazing what happens when we actually turn up. Everyone wants a pop

I just post when Ive come back from a game I have watched live because I find it useful when people offer perspectives from the live games that you cant always catch when watching from the TV. Which is pretty much the only reason I lurk on SC.

As for Alli I just think that his lack of goals (no shots yesterday) is more worrying then the fact he is giving the ball away.

 

[SpursSince1980]

One of the main reason why Son is in such a lethal period of form is that, for now at least, he has sorted out his first touch. It roughly doubles the number of times he can receive the ball and turn it into something constructive. Formerly, he pissed away so many promising positions by failing to control the incoming pass. Yesterday, on numerous occasions, he was able to bring the ball into a usable position while running at full tilt and the result would take him streaking away from the defenders. He's sustained the improvement over a sequence of games. He also looks a shade faster. He's still young, still developing.

The other player who seems to have adapted his game recently is Dembélé. We have become used to the typical Mousa move: collect the ball, shake off the attentions of 1-3 opponents, dribble 10-20m into the space he has just made at a modest pace and then, most of the time, lay the ball off sideways to someone with more passing vision. It's the same basic move, but the change is that he is making about three times as many passes forward toward one of the three attacking midfielders, instead of sideways to his midfield partner or a wing-back. Yesterday, he passed forward more often than not - often enough for me to notice the pattern. It's not as if he's making the kind of "vision" passes that we see from Eriksen, but it's the difference between killing momentum and sustaining it.

I'd add to this, that perhaps the reason why his touch looked better, might have more to do with his positional play yesterday. He spent a majority of the game hugging the left side of the pitch. Playing against a young kid, who wasn't tight enough to him. This gave him a little space to control and maneuver. When Son struggles occasionally,is when he is more central, in a number ten type role. Far less space and time. That said, he's clearly feeling confident right now, which is half the battle. Just ask, Alli. Poor kid looks really at odds with himself.