@Bobby__Lucky
Well-Known Member
- Aug 20, 2013
- 2,933
- 3,982
i Agree, Dier was seriously missed out there today. His kind of game too.
Match Ratings Ratings vs Watford
- Thread starter Bulletspur
- Start date
i Agree, Dier was seriously missed out there today. His kind of game too.
mpickard2087
Patient Zero
- Jun 13, 2008
- 21,888
- 32,553
I don't know where to start, purely because there was basically nothing in that game that I enjoyed. I didn't like how we set up, didn't like the performance, didn't like the defending, certainly didn't like the result.
I could give chapter and verse on the 3-5-2 which, as we have frequently seen when we lose control, quickly becomes five at the back and a mess in front of it, but I cant be fucking bothered to put my all into it, so to save time this is my HT summation, which just sums up my thoughts on it really:
And that just focuses on what we do with the ball. Without it, it is a terrible shape to press teams. Poor pitch coverage, wide expanses left open, a cm3 that is asked a lot of, and needs to be diligent, but with Eriksen and Alli half-arsing their responsibilities is just getting pulled all over the place and Dier/Dembele getting swamped.
So it's not suiting our football (or, at least, the football I want to see played), it's not suiting what we do without the ball, and individually it's not suiting anyone. I've already mentioned the midfield - Alli is not a cm, leave him be to do what he is good at FFS, Eriksen is off his game anyway but is having to play more discipline and unable to drift and find the best space, whichever holding midfielder is being selected is being fucked sans lube, Kane continues to misfire and stumble around the park, and the fullbacks are repeatedly floundering having to shore up the whole flank by themselves. The only one it's got some sort of tune out of is Moura.
I know some, a lot, of people will think this is a load of shit, that we lost because of crap defending at set pieces, didn't defend well in general, didn't battle and weren't up for the fight... And that is correct, all those factors did contribute. Watford got a sniff, and took full advantage. But looking deeper, we aren't keeping control on games, we're struggling to play football, we're not pressing, and we're giving the opposition far too many spells of games and chances. Today Watford, in their own style, punished us, but that could have been other teams in these opening weeks who had done the job. There were some fine margins in previous games. It's not all to be explained by it, but I do think a lot of these patterns have come about through what we have done and how we have set up.
The irony then is that having said all that, next game is quite possibly (like last season) a time to use it - sitting back, blocking up the middle and forcing a team wide, and then having men in positions to counter at speed. But if it's a match where you want to press and get up the pitch, then no.
As for Poch, I don't have much sympathy for his post-match comments. He makes the choices, he sees the games and the warning signs (eg. poor pressing), he decides to just go again thinking we'll just outgun the opposition. Defending set pieces have always been a bit of a weakness (strangely so for a team that is often 6ft+ across the park...) and show no progress, and his repeatedly crappy bench selections showed up today with no way of even trying to change the game. Hopefully this is a bit of a kick up the arse, means we get back to basics and do the stuff that is at the foundation of our game, and he stops trying to shoehorn players in and earns his money by making the tough decisions.
I don't think anyone would disagree that a team builds into a season over the first few games towards firing on all cylinders, and it wont all come at once (particularly after a disrupted summer and pre-season), but there are some things that need to be addressed and which, in my opinion, would aid what we are doing.
Vorm - Didn't have a chance for either of the headers, wasn't required to do all that much otherwise, and he is the backup keeper and you don't expect miracles... But not exactly the most commanding presence, is he?
Alderweireld - Was alright in the first half, bit less convincing in the second.
Sanchez - Purely from a positional POV, you can tell he has a lot to learn and is below the other two. Scrambles well most of the time, but that's often down to him making an error in the first place in his movement/decisions. And someone has got to work with him on getting too tight to his man, gets rolled too often.
Vertonghen - Not sure how his display is being seen as decent. I saw a lot of foot waving instead of attacking the ball, and he was on the scene for both goals conceded.
Trippier - Saw a lot of ball, some cute passes, but some poor crossing at times and as usual don't get me started on most of his positioning.
Davies - Really poor. As I keep saying, he's been solid 6/10 at best in games since last Autumn.
Dembele - Fairly lacklustre, then flatlined completely for the second half. But whoever plays that role has a thankless task in this set-up.
Eriksen - Still isn't 100%, but the set-up doesn't help. If he plays there though he must be more diligent off the ball, he cant afford to be half-arsing it as he has done so far this season.
Alli - I'll just re-post something I said in the match thread, because it sums up my feelings in general, for today or any other day.
Moura - Lively start, full of effort again, but went out of the game. Stood right up top maybe not the best role for him today.
Kane - Another fairly limp effort. It's getting to the point where I'd suggest he sees running/pressing as beneath him. If we're going to play two up top you need both of them dialled in and putting in a shift. He's capable of much more.
Subs:
Llorente - Held the ball up well a few times, but the one moment where we needed a moment of sharpness.......
Winks - Burst forward well a couple of times.
Rose - Great strike......
I could give chapter and verse on the 3-5-2 which, as we have frequently seen when we lose control, quickly becomes five at the back and a mess in front of it, but I cant be fucking bothered to put my all into it, so to save time this is my HT summation, which just sums up my thoughts on it really:
And that just focuses on what we do with the ball. Without it, it is a terrible shape to press teams. Poor pitch coverage, wide expanses left open, a cm3 that is asked a lot of, and needs to be diligent, but with Eriksen and Alli half-arsing their responsibilities is just getting pulled all over the place and Dier/Dembele getting swamped.
So it's not suiting our football (or, at least, the football I want to see played), it's not suiting what we do without the ball, and individually it's not suiting anyone. I've already mentioned the midfield - Alli is not a cm, leave him be to do what he is good at FFS, Eriksen is off his game anyway but is having to play more discipline and unable to drift and find the best space, whichever holding midfielder is being selected is being fucked sans lube, Kane continues to misfire and stumble around the park, and the fullbacks are repeatedly floundering having to shore up the whole flank by themselves. The only one it's got some sort of tune out of is Moura.
I know some, a lot, of people will think this is a load of shit, that we lost because of crap defending at set pieces, didn't defend well in general, didn't battle and weren't up for the fight... And that is correct, all those factors did contribute. Watford got a sniff, and took full advantage. But looking deeper, we aren't keeping control on games, we're struggling to play football, we're not pressing, and we're giving the opposition far too many spells of games and chances. Today Watford, in their own style, punished us, but that could have been other teams in these opening weeks who had done the job. There were some fine margins in previous games. It's not all to be explained by it, but I do think a lot of these patterns have come about through what we have done and how we have set up.
The irony then is that having said all that, next game is quite possibly (like last season) a time to use it - sitting back, blocking up the middle and forcing a team wide, and then having men in positions to counter at speed. But if it's a match where you want to press and get up the pitch, then no.
As for Poch, I don't have much sympathy for his post-match comments. He makes the choices, he sees the games and the warning signs (eg. poor pressing), he decides to just go again thinking we'll just outgun the opposition. Defending set pieces have always been a bit of a weakness (strangely so for a team that is often 6ft+ across the park...) and show no progress, and his repeatedly crappy bench selections showed up today with no way of even trying to change the game. Hopefully this is a bit of a kick up the arse, means we get back to basics and do the stuff that is at the foundation of our game, and he stops trying to shoehorn players in and earns his money by making the tough decisions.
I don't think anyone would disagree that a team builds into a season over the first few games towards firing on all cylinders, and it wont all come at once (particularly after a disrupted summer and pre-season), but there are some things that need to be addressed and which, in my opinion, would aid what we are doing.
Vorm - Didn't have a chance for either of the headers, wasn't required to do all that much otherwise, and he is the backup keeper and you don't expect miracles... But not exactly the most commanding presence, is he?
Alderweireld - Was alright in the first half, bit less convincing in the second.
Sanchez - Purely from a positional POV, you can tell he has a lot to learn and is below the other two. Scrambles well most of the time, but that's often down to him making an error in the first place in his movement/decisions. And someone has got to work with him on getting too tight to his man, gets rolled too often.
Vertonghen - Not sure how his display is being seen as decent. I saw a lot of foot waving instead of attacking the ball, and he was on the scene for both goals conceded.
Trippier - Saw a lot of ball, some cute passes, but some poor crossing at times and as usual don't get me started on most of his positioning.
Davies - Really poor. As I keep saying, he's been solid 6/10 at best in games since last Autumn.
Dembele - Fairly lacklustre, then flatlined completely for the second half. But whoever plays that role has a thankless task in this set-up.
Eriksen - Still isn't 100%, but the set-up doesn't help. If he plays there though he must be more diligent off the ball, he cant afford to be half-arsing it as he has done so far this season.
Alli - I'll just re-post something I said in the match thread, because it sums up my feelings in general, for today or any other day.
He's just not a top level central midfielder, maybe in future but at this stage of his career it is not where his qualities lie. But fans, media, and now unfortunately both Spurs and England managers seem determined to reinvent him.
He's a 'space finder' player, similar to the likes of Thomas Muller. Just get him operating in and around the penalty area where his instinct at sniffing space/opportunities and finishing (and a few flair moments as a bonus) there are few better. There it doesn't matter so much if he is guilty of playing too slowly at his own pace, or dispossessed doing something silly/overambitious, there is cover behind him. In deeper positions his propensity to do the over-elaborate, and reluctance to move the ball quickly, or have ability to carry the ball quickly up the pitch, becomes much more in focus. And that doesn't even mention the off the ball/defensive aspects of the game.....
Yes he was able to charge forward quite a bit today, but he's being asked to be more disciplined at times rather than setting him free. And him wanting to rush forward from the CM role has knock on effects on the midfield/individual players, our ability to control, and leaves us more open.
Some might read this as a post just bashing him, but it isn't meant to be, rather a lament of taking him out of his (in my opinion) best role and less focus on him using his best qualities.
He's a 'space finder' player, similar to the likes of Thomas Muller. Just get him operating in and around the penalty area where his instinct at sniffing space/opportunities and finishing (and a few flair moments as a bonus) there are few better. There it doesn't matter so much if he is guilty of playing too slowly at his own pace, or dispossessed doing something silly/overambitious, there is cover behind him. In deeper positions his propensity to do the over-elaborate, and reluctance to move the ball quickly, or have ability to carry the ball quickly up the pitch, becomes much more in focus. And that doesn't even mention the off the ball/defensive aspects of the game.....
Yes he was able to charge forward quite a bit today, but he's being asked to be more disciplined at times rather than setting him free. And him wanting to rush forward from the CM role has knock on effects on the midfield/individual players, our ability to control, and leaves us more open.
Some might read this as a post just bashing him, but it isn't meant to be, rather a lament of taking him out of his (in my opinion) best role and less focus on him using his best qualities.
Moura - Lively start, full of effort again, but went out of the game. Stood right up top maybe not the best role for him today.
Kane - Another fairly limp effort. It's getting to the point where I'd suggest he sees running/pressing as beneath him. If we're going to play two up top you need both of them dialled in and putting in a shift. He's capable of much more.
Subs:
Llorente - Held the ball up well a few times, but the one moment where we needed a moment of sharpness.......
Winks - Burst forward well a couple of times.
Rose - Great strike......
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Gbspurs
Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
- Jan 27, 2011
- 26,968
- 61,857
The main reason I added Trips to the list was because he had the most chances to deliver a decent ball today and failed most of the time.
Not really sure how you can say that. I’d say every player has competition apart from Kane and eriksen. And if eriksen carries on in this form I’m not sure how patient poch will be once Son and lamela are back and winks up to speed. Llorente kills us though it’s like having a manikin on the bench a complete waste of space.
ohtottenham!
Well-Known Member
- Aug 15, 2013
- 7,499
- 13,035
I'll have to check the stats, which will only tell part of the story. What I do know is that he gave us far more offensive threat going down the right than Davies did on the left.
Trips tried to link up his play with Eriksen, Alli, Dembele et al, with the direct intention of putting himself in a position to provide an attacking threat. We didn't have that drive down the left.
Gbspurs
Gatekeeper for debates, King of the plonkers
- Jan 27, 2011
- 26,968
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Don't disagree with that, Davies was a waste of space.
We were very poor today
and it ruined what until then
had been a lovely weekend..
Mauricio was in cross fingers and hope mode.
Dembele and Davies needed replacing earlier.
Much much earlier.
The shape and personnel involved were inept.
Trippier and Moura were the best of a bad bunch.
'Clusterfuck' comes to mind.
Kane needs to play up front,
Moura on the wing,
Dembele in the subs
Winks should start
and possibly Amos.
Come back Dier all is forgiven.
Eriksen needs a new contract.
Dele dilly dallied to no good effect.
Even the two Belgians at the back waffledtheir way through the game.
Sanchez is not safe let out on his own.
Blame Vorm if you want a scapegoat and we usually do.
Champions League? Your 'avin' a laugh on this display.
At least we won the cricket.
and it ruined what until then
had been a lovely weekend..
Mauricio was in cross fingers and hope mode.
Dembele and Davies needed replacing earlier.
Much much earlier.
The shape and personnel involved were inept.
Trippier and Moura were the best of a bad bunch.
'Clusterfuck' comes to mind.
Kane needs to play up front,
Moura on the wing,
Dembele in the subs
Winks should start
and possibly Amos.
Come back Dier all is forgiven.
Eriksen needs a new contract.
Dele dilly dallied to no good effect.
Even the two Belgians at the back waffledtheir way through the game.
Sanchez is not safe let out on his own.
Blame Vorm if you want a scapegoat and we usually do.
Champions League? Your 'avin' a laugh on this display.
At least we won the cricket.
doctor stefan Freud
the tired tread of sad biology
- Sep 2, 2013
- 15,170
- 72,169
I mostly know fuck all but Eriksen always seems to start slowly. On that basis, we’ll be in the top four by the end of the season. Hopefully
doctor stefan Freud
the tired tread of sad biology
- Sep 2, 2013
- 15,170
- 72,169
Easy Jimmy, this is a haiku that’s shaken hands with Ian Dury
stevenqoz
Well-Known Member
- Apr 10, 2006
- 2,776
- 553
Vorm 5 Not commanding
Davies 4- Needed to come off at half time. Ponderous and wasteful in the wing back position. Poor decision making and delivery
Toby 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Vert 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Sanchez 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Trip 7- Sharp...decent game
Dembele 5 Proved to be the crux of our problems and needed to be replaced after an hour. Poor distribution
Eriksen 5 Struggled to get into the game even when we were on top
Alli 6- Fair game...would like to see him running the ball from deeper
Lucas 7- Worked hard throughout. MOM for us
Kane 5- Seemed to lack confidence and often tried to lay off balls where he was on for a shot
Winks 8 Outstanding cameo
Rose NET But should have come on for Davies on the hour
Lorrente NET
Poch 4 Right team selection but missed his cue on the hour to hook Dembele and Davies
Davies 4- Needed to come off at half time. Ponderous and wasteful in the wing back position. Poor decision making and delivery
Toby 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Vert 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Sanchez 6- Impressive like the other two central guys for an hour
Trip 7- Sharp...decent game
Dembele 5 Proved to be the crux of our problems and needed to be replaced after an hour. Poor distribution
Eriksen 5 Struggled to get into the game even when we were on top
Alli 6- Fair game...would like to see him running the ball from deeper
Lucas 7- Worked hard throughout. MOM for us
Kane 5- Seemed to lack confidence and often tried to lay off balls where he was on for a shot
Winks 8 Outstanding cameo
Rose NET But should have come on for Davies on the hour
Lorrente NET
Poch 4 Right team selection but missed his cue on the hour to hook Dembele and Davies
Tottenham_God
Well-Known Member
- Nov 6, 2011
- 2,940
- 5,619
Can we start Winks every game forever?
matthew.absurdum
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 3,734
- 10,126
Just rewatch the goals conceded. I think Hugo is a big miss in this situation. I think Hugo would tend to come out to punch away the balls in both goals. Vorm is fine but he is rather passive in this situation. Also I think Dier is our best defender in header. Sometimes you get along with this. But we were a bit unlucky today.
I also tend to think our bench is a problem today. Really needs Lamela Son and Wanyama back in both 0-1 and 2-1 cases.
I also tend to think our bench is a problem today. Really needs Lamela Son and Wanyama back in both 0-1 and 2-1 cases.
Wheeler Dealer
Well-Known Member
- Jul 29, 2011
- 6,921
- 12,431
Midfield was unbalanced and lack urgency or guile. Dembele should not have been used as the sole holder. Alli is so wasteful in possession. He is an instinctive player, but when having time to make a decision, just delays and slows the game down. He's also concedes possession far too easily, which against the top teams will be punished. On today's performance, he's far too much of a luxury and his inclusion next game needs some serious thought from Poch, because the bin-dippers will tear us a new arsehole if we are not set up correctly
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Spurrific
Well-Known Member
- Jun 2, 2011
- 13,501
- 57,356
Winks looks good. The rest were genuinely bad. Kane probably the worst of the lot, one of those games where he runs like he's wearing a neck-weight.
The real losers are Spurs fans that think we have the best second choice 'keeper in the league. Vorm is truly awful and has been exposed every single time he's played in the league for us. He should have came for the second cross (have only seen it once, maybe harsh) - but the least he could have done for either goal was move. We should just sign the prick Watford had in goal and get rid of both of Vorm and Gazzaniga. Wastes of non-HG spots, don't care what decent guys they seem.
The real losers are Spurs fans that think we have the best second choice 'keeper in the league. Vorm is truly awful and has been exposed every single time he's played in the league for us. He should have came for the second cross (have only seen it once, maybe harsh) - but the least he could have done for either goal was move. We should just sign the prick Watford had in goal and get rid of both of Vorm and Gazzaniga. Wastes of non-HG spots, don't care what decent guys they seem.
Ah, we can have an open top bus with a print out of the league table on the top deck for us to cheer and wave flags at.
I just wish the CL obsession was not such a financial thing that it becomes our primary focus. We're never going to win it and we end up not concentrating on the cups we could win. BEing a Spurs fan in the 80s was more fun than now
Pat Rice Spurs fan
I'm dynamite and I don't know why
- Feb 22, 2007
- 1,609
- 1,237
A few people have said that Vorm had no chance with either goal. Now, I've only watched MoTD but I questioned whether it was that down to the finish being totally unreachable, or do was he starting in a position where there was too much open goal?
The goal's only a certain size and he's a big man, yet the ball was past him before he seemed to move - and I'm not saying he should just dive regardless once the ball's in the back of the net.
Am I being harsh, or did he have no chance because he was poorly positioned?
And I assume it's Vorm's decision to have nobody on the posts for the second goal???
alexis
Well-Known Member
- Sep 1, 2012
- 1,830
- 3,410
Think Vorm is a decent keeper, obviously he’s second choice for a reason. As for Gazzaniga he was outstanding the last time I saw him against palace. Foster to me at 35 would be better how?
