Match Ratings Ratings vs Watford

[Spurrific]

The keeper had no chance with both goals not even Lloris would save those...plus Vorm imo is a top premiership keeper.

He's not even top 3 at Spurs. It goes: Lloris, Gazzaniga, Kane. Then maybe Vorm. He seems like a lovely guy, but he's a proper shit goalkeeper.

Where does he excel? Distribution is okay (sometimes), shot-stopping is average (in relation to other PL 'keepers), positioning is ass, doesn't command his box, glued to his line 24/7 (which is why I don't understand why he's our second choice). I have literally never seen Vorm claim a corner or a set-piece. He's far too weak - I'd love to have enough free time to research how many goals we concede from crosses and set plays with Vorm between the sticks. He definitely could have at least moved for the second goal.

It's just a waste of a non-HG space. United signed Lee Grant, Chelsea Rob Green. Teams that are close to the minimum number of HG players shouldn't have two non-HG back-up 'keepers, it's stupid.

 

[JimmyG2]

He's not even top 3 at Spurs. It goes: Lloris, Gazzaniga, Kane. Then maybe Vorm. He seems like a lovely guy, but he's a proper shit goalkeeper.

Where does he excel? Distribution is okay (sometimes), shot-stopping is average (in relation to other PL 'keepers), positioning is ass, doesn't command his box, glued to his line 24/7 (which is why I don't understand why he's our second choice). I have literally never seen Vorm claim a corner or a set-piece. He's far too weak - I'd love to have enough free time to research how many goals we concede from crosses and set plays with Vorm between the sticks. He definitely could have at least moved for the second goal.

It's just a waste of a non-HG space. United signed Lee Grant, Chelsea Rob Green. Teams that are close to the minimum number of HG players shouldn't have two non-HG back-up 'keepers, it's stupid.

So it was you that voted him MOM.
This comment is just deflection.

 

[Spurrific]

So it was you that voted him MOM.
This comment is just deflection.

The only vote I'd ever give Vorm is one of no confidence

 

[Bulletspur]

As requested @Shadydan BC' s Watford's ratings (Copied from the Fighting Cock with his permission)



Bus Conductor

Once again Poch delved into his tactical flexibility play book for this one and this time came up with a 3142 with Dembele as the kind of 4/6 hybrid "1", with, slightly ahead of him, Eriksen and Alli as the 8's either side and once again Moura and Kane as a pair up top.

Now, I'd still much prefer to see us play a more conventional 433 - somehow this seems to be the one page missing from the Poch playbook manual - but I did quite like the format in theory. It potentially had plenty of "football" in it. I did question early on in the match thread whether Dembele would have the dynamism to play the role, especially as Alli and Eriksen aren't always the most diligent without the ball, and also noticed as the first half went on that we could really do with someone more metronomic in that 4/6 role, Dembele wasn't really showing and distributing enough, Eriksen and Alli were pretty much having to do it all, and subsequently these concerns were realised, but at least you kind understand the logic in this format, if not the execution completely. Dembele holding it together keeping Alli and Eriksen supplied either side and them constantly probing. And for 50 minutes it was the most coherent and cohesive we've played this season, with and without the ball.

This was never going to be like Fulham or Utd. Fulham aren't really designed to be pragmatic, they are a front foot side, and ManU changed tactics and went front foot. Watford have had some energy and momentum about them so far, they were well drilled and and play in bursts, but we just killed them for 50 minutes, controlled the game in every aspect, didn't allow them any oxygen, didn't allow their big lumps to cause problems up front and despite them sitting very deep we still managed to eek out some very decent half chances. Alli heads wide with an open goal beckoning behind Foster, Moura fails to control a through ball and several other good situations petered out.

I know people were grumbling about Eriksen today, but this was his best game this season by an absolute mile. He didn't hit any fantastic shots and he didn't play any killer through balls today, but you have to adjust that perspective a little today, he wasn't an AM or an ACM, a 10 or that hybrid 8/10 he often plays, today he was pretty much playing as an out and out 8, charged with a more metronomic role, showing and ticking, keeping us moving, and by and large he fulfilled that remit well, only Trippier saw more of the ball, and only our CB's made more passes. Of course, even as an 8, he could have done better, contributed something more "outstanding", but if we accept his role was different today, then within that remit, as a CM/8, he was pretty good.

And even though Alli's had better games, again playing more as an 8 today, he worked pretty hard without the ball, and still tried to make things happen in forward ares, still got himself into a couple of good situations, but is still a bit wasteful at times.

The midfield remains a huge problem though, and how we hold it together. Although neither Alli or Eriksen are archetypal 8's, both can do it and do it reasonably well, but at the same time ? If so, they need a dynamic and busy **** in their with them to do more of the fetching and carrying, provide more insurance, a Kante type, (hopefully Wanyama when back, or maybe Amos/Skipp even). Dier's too ponderous and predictable, and lacks that hunter dynamism, has no 360 game brain, doesn't want the ball under pressure and can't move with it. Dembele is much more unflappable, will take it under pressure, but his effective playing time has shrunk from 60 minutes a game to about 30. It's like once he sat down at half time he just couldn't get his body or brain jump started again. Even before we'd scored he was blowing hard, giving sloppy passes - one in our six yard box - but after we scored and they had their little hurrah, he was just like a turtle in force 10 windsock. Poch spoke after the game about how we stopped playing football immediately after scoring for a little spell, stopped wanting the ball.

All those issues aside, this really wasn't a catastrophic away performance at a tough place. We ground our way to a lead doing the right things, were patient, moved the ball around, and eventually made that control count, our pressure told.

What happened then was that, with Dembele flagging, we struggled to keep a grip of things when they had a little huff at us, and that's pretty much all it was, they got a little bit of wind, got two set piece goals in 8 minutes and then shelled it again. Pretty much the reverse of what we did at ManU on Monday. They weren't great and we weren't terrible at all.

We didn't actually allow them a single quality chance in open play. Their XG (in other words expected goals from the quality of chances) was a fucking poultry 0.44 that was lower than any other team this week, including Newcastle away at ManC.

Which is why I wasn't apoplectic with rage today, even in our worst phase, we were so much more cohesive without the ball that we have been so far. So much less general chaos than all our first three games (especially the last one) where even shit ****s like Newcastle were carving us apart from open play.

We didn't create a plethora of quality chances either, to a degree, a victim of our own dominance as we pushed them into a very deep block, but also of our own bumbling, as per often the case. Before today, no team had coughed up the ball more from miss controlling the ball. And this is our other area of major concern. Kane. We all love Kane, he's uber. But his hold up play has been fucking abysmal for months. And as much as Moura's busy little legs have been been a real positive so far this season, he also is a bit erratic; sometimes he'll dribble round three players, sometimes his first touch is spring loaded. They both obviously have some great traits, but both of them in the same space, especially against a deep block is cluster bumble congestion at times.

I liked the notional idea of how Poch set us up today, two "footballing 8's" hubbing off a pivotal CM, the FB's pushed up and wide, but Poch really needed to react to the Dembele situation much quicker. But I do think there were some decent signs out there today, we were much much better defensively, conceding two goals from two set pieces is largely shit luck, it happens. Not allowing them a chance in open play is good. I'd really like to see us try a 433. Get a busy, but metronomic fucker in that Dembele role (Wanyama, Amos, Skipp?), have two from Eriksen, Alli, Winks as the 8's and have Moura and Lamela as wide forwards either side of Kane, giving him that fulcrum forward role again, putting another creative body in forward areas, sacrificing a CB.

I took a lot of shit last week for saying I thought the result flattered a chaotic performance, then Poch came and and said the same and repeated it post match today, that he was really really unhappy last week. I hope on reflection he isn't so appalled by what he saw and he and we did today, I think there was some good sense and intentions in what he and we did today, sometimes football just fucks you, as it did ManU last week. Either way, I hope just because we lost, Poch doesn't feel the need to chuck the entire baby out with this weeks tactical bath water.

Individual

Vorm - Solid game.

Trippier - Decent game, becoming like a little playmaker on the right side. Only player to see more ball than Eriksen.

Alderweireld - OK

Sanchez - Pretty OK

Vertinghen - Good game, love seeing him glide out of defence, he's going to be harder to replace than Alderwireld IMO.

Davies - After a very good first half of last season, he seems to have regressed to very meh. Not only forward areas, but allowed the odd cross to come in too easily.

Dembele - He's got a lovely spin cycle, but just can't rinse or repeat any more. Chinese glue factory beckons.

Eriksen - No fireworks, but a good tick, tick no.8 type game, through which most things flow. Only Trippier saw more ball and no player ahead of the CB's made more passes. More pezaze would be lovely, but I can't fault his effort or performance too much in this remit.

Alli - Ive been hard on the kid in the past, there is bumbly wastage still at times, but he is playing with more responsibility, and still providing some creative spark and box moments. Decent enough, but did go a little awol in that second half, and Poch has got to brave sometimes and be prepared to pull him off.

Moura - We're all loving his energy, just needs to show a little more composure at times.

Kane - I think he desperately needs a rest, but there's no way that's going to happen. I wonder if that's why Pochettino is playing this two CF system. He's still working hard, hustling the CB's, but I wish he'd stop trying to dribble and sometimes he has to hold it up a bit better and lay it off.

 

[Lighty64]

Yep, I gave it to him for being the only player on the pitch who dared to shoot around their box. The thing I remember most about todays game is screaming FUCKING SHOOT ALREADY like fifty times when they were doing what I like to call the AVB shuffle which is passing it back and forth around the box with everyone going, no u, no u, no u, and then end up passing it back to either Jan or Toby for a hoof for when we inevitably end up under pressure.

Fucking clueless tactically and the most hollow "motm" award ever given so who really cares anyway? AVB esque performance today.
How our players expect to be given any sort of respect from opposition defenders when all they do is pussy out every time they get a clear shot at goal is fucking mind boggling.

did you actually rate them as shots, from where I was sitting they where more like back passes. when he puts his foot through the ball he gets so much movement on it. Foster (a hoodoo keeper against us) wasn't really troubled, 2 shots on target and both easy collections

 

[Lighty64]

Vorm - Didn’t have masses to do beside to pick the ball out twice. Nothing to be done about the first, could be better on the second.

Trippier - Good threat, crossing wasn’t up to usual standard though, but looked bright throughout

Jan, Toby, Dav - Decided to group these guys together as, during open play, I thought these guys played really well and contained the big lads up top very comfortably. However on set pieces these guys were poor, both their goals were so so easy.

Davies - Like the boy, but we will never win the league with Davies as our left back

Dembele - Had some good battles with Doucoure, and some nice touches but just wasn’t himself today

Eriksen - Pretty weak performance imo. Played a tasty ball for Sanchez at the end of the 1st, but generally was pretty sloppy. If we are going to play him deeper, we need him playing with Wanyama or Dier as him and Dembele aren’t an effective pair, if you play 2 in front of a back 3, you need 1 who is just going to sit and let the other move.

Alli - Tried it all but none came off, needs to simplify it at times! Thank you god he was ruled out for offside in the 1st for that awful miss.

Moura - My MOTM (from a poor selection) today. Lively and always trying to make things happen, Kabasele did well to shut him down. Potential penalty shout in the 1st, unlucky not to make more happen.

Kane - Looks exhausted, bit of a wake up call I think, needs to learn how to play with others alongside him, feel like him and Lucas struggle to work as one.

—
Llorente - Offers nothing. Poor guy.

Winks - Looked zippy, will be a valuable squad player this year! Looking fly in the number 8 too!

If we play that way against Lpool we will be embarrassed, but with hopefully Sonny back, Lamela, Sissoko, Winks, Lloris back in Goal, our squad will looked much denser than today.

Side note: Is Gkn registered to play? Or not?

the thing that annoyed me with Vorm is at least throw yourself at the attempts, both times he just watched it go in. if that had been Hugo he would of launched himself towards the direction, and if beaten at least make it look like you tried.

with the goals conceded, today showed that if your playing a team like Watford Dier would of been the best player in that role not Dembele, with Dier he is valuable in set pieces both ends of the pitch. don't think we won 1 single header from a set piece, and really wished Eriksen had let Trips take that last free kick