Run down on players vs Villa

[shakus]

The worst thing about tonight for me was the fact we got outsung by maroon and blue coloured shirts and didn't really inspire the team to improve. They found it difficult to get going and needed our help, yet as supporters our vocal support was found wanting. Ok so if you're one nil down you expect players to step up, but they need us more than we realise. The only bright spark was the cabbie on way home being a spurs fan who gave me a tenner off the ride.... how often does that happen?

 

[Lilywhite_Shayne]

Ramos: For a fella who supposedly hates losing, he’s getting pretty used to it at Spurs. It’s all well and good making bold substitutions during matches, but making such a mess of the starting line up might not require major substitutions so much. Is he planning to only show respect to the top 4 this year again? Did he not play our strongest team because he felt we’d beat Villa with less than our 1^st team (with an eye on mid-week)? If so and if he keeps it up, he’ll deserve the sack when he eventually gets it.
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Villa are way better than us. Much more solid, much better balance in their team and squad, much more drive and determination, much more hard working, much better organized, much more consistent (in a positive way), and much more likely to have a successful league campaign than we are. They had a bad result against Stoke, but I wouldn't fancy us at Stoke at all at the moment. It could be argued that we’ve got better players on paper than Villa, but like all good clubs, they’re building a team rather than playing fantasy transfer football with the real thing. Good luck to them, they've got a proper set-up and a wonderful manager.

We've got a lot of work to do and a change in attitude toward more urgency is what's needed in the short term. Things might not be too bad over the longer term if we can get our act together before 1/4 of the season is gone.

Ramos gives Spurs their worst ever start in the premier league... he still has his job, not so much as a rumor regarding his future has emerged... yet, Martin Jol lead Spurs to their two best finishes in the premier league... GO FIGURE!

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Perhaps Ramos hasn't whored himself to another club...oops, sorry, who said that? :|


5 Questions from the game:

For such a brilliant passer why is Huddlestone such a shit passer?

For such a good striker why is Bent so shit at striking the ball?

For such a genius with deadballs, why is Bentley so shit at freekicks and corners (we're talking Michael Carrick standards here. When we said we wanted Carrick replaced...)?

For such a committed defender, why has no one had Dawson committed?

For such a great coach, why can't Ramos coach players to be as disciplined as Martin O'Neill, Roy Keane or even Gareth sodding Southgate?

 

[glenda]

modric is makin jenas look like kaka at the moment!! is this the guy that is gonna go up against the micheal essiens of this world!!! dream on!!

i have no idea why ramos picked that team,he needs to forget about the cups & put out our best team!! because we are gonna be in trouble if we dont win our next league games!!!

no 2 ways about it!!! how the fuck was huddlestone suppose to out run & reo coker/ashley young etc!!

 

[Durbs]

Ramos gives Spurs their worst ever start in the premier league... he still has his job, not so much as a rumor regarding his future has emerged... yet, Martin Jol lead Spurs to their two best finishes in the premier league... GO FIGURE!

I was happy with what Jol achieved - disappointed that he got sacked so early in the season after 2 top 5 finishes.
He is now at Hamburg and tops the league ahead of Bayern Munich.
Ramos at Spurs at the bottom of the league below Stoke.
I am sure Levy is trying to do the right thing with the manager scenario, but is he now going to sack Ramos and try bring an even high profiler name. He will then make his name and Spurs look like shit considering the way we hired Ramos. (Even the way he hired Hoddle)
Someone was talking about DOF - it works throughout Europe and was working with Jol and Arnesen. You have to have 2 people that have the same passion, same thoughts and players that play the style that both like.
When I saw that line-up last night, with 5 changes to the side that drew with Chelsea it looked unbalanced. This turned out to be true with Jenas on the ball and had no idea who to pass to.
Ramos's idea was maybe good, but he needs the players to understand how to execute his plan as last night they had no clue whatsoever in the 1st half.:shrug:

 

[parj]

this is why berbatov and keane left. Everytime i watch spurs lowlights i realise how shit we are. I dont understand why he took apart the team that played chelsea. He just wont let the players blend.

time to face facts, we are a selling club. we are like Tesco, we pile the players up high and sell them.

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

What has to been said about this match was how much more solid Villa looked. Partly due to our central midfield not functioning particularly well, but none the less a great effort by them. Lennon's been getting some stick, which I dont get. To me he was the attacking threath, and I didnt feel we were really dangerous until I saw him and Dos Santos together in the side. Credit, as has been said, to Jenas and Bale aswell.

One should never be too hard on debutants, but Corluka had a terrible match. Hopefully we'll see him from a better side, because Gunter is way better than what we saw yesterday!

 

[WhiteHart4Ever]

I was happy with what Jol achieved - disappointed that he got sacked so early in the season after 2 top 5 finishes.
He is now at Hamburg and tops the league ahead of Bayern Munich.
Ramos at Spurs at the bottom of the league below Stoke.
I am sure Levy is trying to do the right thing with the manager scenario, but is he now going to sack Ramos and try bring an even high profiler name. He will then make his name and Spurs look like shit considering the way we hired Ramos. (Even the way he hired Hoddle)
Someone was talking about DOF - it works throughout Europe and was working with Jol and Arnesen. You have to have 2 people that have the same passion, same thoughts and players that play the style that both like.
When I saw that line-up last night, with 5 changes to the side that drew with Chelsea it looked unbalanced. This turned out to be true with Jenas on the ball and had no idea who to pass to.
Ramos's idea was maybe good, but he needs the players to understand how to execute his plan as last night they had no clue whatsoever in the 1st half.:shrug:

First thing first: I really, really liked Martin Jol, and actually started singing for him when I watched the highlights of their latest match. I was gutted when he was given the sack, and still blame Levy for it!

BUT, give Ramos some time. Don't forget that Spurs for the last seasons have had the privilege of three top class strikers capable of creating loads of goals without any support. We are now struggling to create something without them, at the same time as we are getting new players into the team. Sacking Ramos is not the answer...

 

[martinsjollyboys]

I must have been watching a different Lennon tonight...thought he was poor as he left a slow corluka alone several times to mark two Villa players (including a lightning quick Ashley young) His touch was rubbish and only showed any guile in flashes.

Villa are a team we are supposed to be "as good as" in so far as pushing for the illusive 4th spot, yet they looked head and shoulders above us last night. I dont know why they were time wasting so much in the second half when they looked like they could score another whenever if they really wanted to.

We lacked cohesion, confidence, passion and pride. That comes from the management team and it will need to come bloody fast

 

[AndyLov]

Couldn't agree with you more on Lennon and it's been for the best part of 2 years now. It's no good 'almost' getting it right half a dozen times a game if that's the story of every game you play. He is young and might come through but he needs to be working on it somewhere other than our first team at the moment. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[Hartfelt]

This is not hindsight, this is stating what we all knew/know. I was totally baffled that we failed to acquire a LW and a defensive midfielder in the window, to me the key positions we needed to address. Sod Bentley, I could have lived with Lennon down the right and would have applauded spending the money on the LW we desperately need. Bale, playing behind a genuine LW, is a mouth-watering prospect. We still have no proper left side for about the tenth successive season. Bale was left with far too much to do against Villa who were better all over the park.

We still have a soft middle just waiting to be prised open. Thank Christ for Woodgate, who really should have the armband with Ledley crocked one game in two. Without him I think we'd have shipped goals last night.

Zokora simply does not know his role. Neither do I. JJ and Hudd both have their strengths but neither is born to tackle and intimidate. Modric is wee , but allegedly tough, but he needs someone next to him to allow him to rampage forward. It's quite clear that we have a number of creative central midfielders and not a single dyed-in-the-wool defensive midfielder. Why?

What's the point of all the midfield creativity with no strikers to put the ball in the net? Bent is simply a good Charlton striker, no more, no less. Was I alone in feeling disappointed that we bought Pav? Physically his game's right for us, but he's not in the same class as either of the two we lost. I wonder how long it will take him to bed in with no English? We need goals. Where will they come from? Not fair to expect Pav to be banging them in and his value, like Berba's, is as much with his assists. How much longer does Bent need to start looking like a threat? As for the United Reservist we're all supposed to get so excited about...well, say no more. We must buy a proven world-class striker in January. I don't believe we can wait until next season. The fact that Levy was pissed off about our failure to get the strikers we need does nothing to compensate for the fact that we have a Reservist, a bench-warmer and a striker who's never left his homeland, as our front line. Come home Defoe all is forgiven.

We've spent a lot of money but we made a lot from sales, including those of our two best assets. Personally, I think we bought good players but we're a couple short of making the team click. The soft middle puts too much pressure on the defence, even though as a unit I think the back four is much improved (for the doubters Corluka is good, but mediocre as a right back). The lack of penetration down the left denies us attacking options. The absence of a striker who can turn a game says it all.

The team stopped playing last season after the Carling Cup, which was disgraceful. This season I've seen nothing, nothing, to make me believe that we're better than we were, and I include the pre-season games. Why Ramos bothers to say that the Roma result was significant is beyond me. It was fun, nothing more.

At what point do we have a right to demand performances? Yet another season that may come to be defined by a woeful start. Make no mistake failure to qualify for Europe this season would be catastrophic. Next season, with the City factor, is going to be far harder.

Ramos is a better manager than Jol. I do believe this. Why, then, is he experiencing similar problems? Goals for, make up for so much. They mask deficiencies. We don't have that luxury any more.

We simply cannot afford to lose to key rivals, like Villa, at home. Period. A poor result and no mistake.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

I appreciate and in many ways share your upset, Hartfelt, but there are two points I take issue with.

We simply don't and didn't need a left winger. Defensive midfielder yes. Left midfielder/winger; they're coming out of our arse.

In Bale we have one of the best in the league (seriously), Gilberto is listed as a midfielder, O'Hara is a different yet worthy option, Modric plays there very well. Giovani has a wonderful left foot and is primarily a winger/attacking midfielder, Bentley and Lennon can both swap sides and have created goals while doing so, and even JJ could operate very effectively as an attacking, narrower left midfielder.

Any left winger we signed would have had to play second fiddle to all, if not most of these.


Also, you dismiss Pavlyuchenko as not being any good as he has 'never left his homeland.'

I take it you mean apart from being his country's top scorer in a huge international tournament?

 

[Locotoro]

Pav will come good but my support of Bentis starting to wane

 

[liewser]

Only standout performance was Jenas. We looked 10 times better with him in the team. Lennon, Bale and Dos Santos all put up a good show too.

Huddlestone, Dawson and Bent should be benched as soon as possible. They offered nothing yesterday, not going to another game until we've seen the back of these 3. Modric im afraid is looking like another player we bought for excessive money and now we're gona have to stick by him for a season or two when in reality hes not very good at all.

 

[spurs_viola]

Just a few notes: it spoke volumes about our midfield performance in the first half that Jenas stood out as the best in there.

It does seem at the moment that although Ramos may have good ideas for the team tactics, the players he has at his disposal have not grasped his ideas yet. I don't believe he deliberately set out to play with disbalanced team. Much more likely the players did not follow his instructions/visions as he wanted.
Which raises further questions:
Are they unable to grasp his ideas at the moment?
Are they unwilling to try their best to carry out his ideas/plans?
Is there a problem with communication between Ramos and the players, where they may not fully understand what exactly they need to do in various play situations?
Has the Newcastle approach and media attention interfered with Gus Poyet's team preparations too much in the last week?

Re Huddlestone, I don't think he suddenly turned into a very poor footballer.
Before this season, he had Berbatov, Keane and Lennon to aim for with his range of passing; this season he has...Bent, and sometimes Lennon who is still not consistent enough in the attacking positions. Plus the lack of movement up front is getting worrying, with the number of times players with the ball in midfield do not see an option for a progressive pass (witness Jenas, Bale, Huddlestone yesterday).

These factors surely have affected Hudd's game considerably. Remember his contribution last season under Ramos in UEFA Cup after he came on at halftime a few times, eg that pass to set up Berbatov for the goal 3 minutes into 2nd half against the Danish side at WHL? That is the big difference: where Berbatov was clever enough to see the opening to receive the ball in the danger area, Bent waits for the ball to come for him and reacts to what happens next.

 

[Woody10]

Agree with pretty much all of it apart from Bents and Modric!

Modric, i know for sure will be a quality player, but you say he runs rings round midfields for croatia, look at there system and that allows him the freedom.

Bentley is a right winger and last year was one of the best crossers of the ball all season. If given a run at RIGHT WING he will do a very good job, i would like Ramos to convert Lennon into a Right footed left winger, we all know he hasnt got a great cross, so send him attacking left backs and cutting in, a lesson in which Young gave us last night!!

Surprised JJ didnt start, thought he showed alot of passion and urgency when he came on!

The Hudd seriously needs to up his game! So does Daws, Corluka looked very shaky, surprised! Maybe try him centre back with Woody!!

Pav looked alrite, Bent needs a boost! he's all confidence and looks sheepish at the mo!! Frazier should get a run, pace in behind!!

I expect a massive change in our system for sunday with Wigan!!

Come on for fuck sake!!!!

 

[Chris p]

What does anybody expect - we have sold defoe, keane and berbatov within 9 months of one another. Combine that with malbranque and that's a lot of firepower to loose. Once we had a strikeforce for most clubs to fear. Sadly now we look toothless up front and clueless at the back.

There are too many talented players either settling into the premiership, or who don't seem to have a grasp on how they're supposed to play. That may change over time, but it needs to be quick. A real test of whether Ramos can cut the mustard.

Right now I am dreading the Wigan match and would rather be playing Newcastle who seem to be the only club in more disarray than spurs at the moment.

 

[Firekid]

YAY another massive change in our system thats exactley what we need then when we do badly lets change it all again etc.

its obvious to all that dawson is pants so don't play him.
Ramos played 2 defensive minded midfielders last night which was a problem.
Bentley on the right is a must, jenas in the middle is a must. Woodgate playing is a must but thats about it, that is all that ramos has to go on there are no other certinties in our squad. who should play up front? what is our best back four? bale lb or lm?
No wonder he's having such a hard time if only we could play 12 players...

Oh and finally Jol is a great great manager. The only problem he had (imo) is that he let the players get fat and unfit... was it his job to keep them fit? ramos has an employed dietican that tells the players what to eat? If jol had Ramos's staff i.e that dietican and Gus and these players (which arguabley he may not of been able to get but) IF he had these players then i truly believe we would be top of the table... ok ok top 4....

 

[Paxtonite]

Where do i start. I had my rant last night HOWEVER, stuff needs to be said again in light of some of the comments in this thread, much of which makes perfect sense.

I have faith in Ramos, but i have concerns. I wonder too if he is feeling homesick, but that aside my main concern is whethe he actually "gets it" in the premier league? Does he understand the intensity and the predicament we are in and if he doesn't then surely Gus should be advising him.

Villa was always going to be a tough ask (and living in Villa country i was fearful of the fixture anyway), but in my view, what confidence we took from the Chelsea performance should have been built on, especially as the international break and the closing of the transfer window had seen many developments since then.

Therefore in my view we should have played the same team again to consolidate our position. Get the confidence going. Villa are a bloody hard team to play against, anyone familiar with the league should know that. If that meant Pav and Corluka on the bench then so be it. For now!

As for the rest of the stuff posted, i am sorry but Bent, Huddlestone and Dawson are no more than squad players who can come on for a few minutes and possibly help the team in a game that is not going our way. They are not good enough to start. And the same way Anthony Gardner finally found his level, so will these players.

Corluka i have my doubts over, as per the thread i started a few days ago, and Lennon still has no end product despite how much running he does.

I too find myself surprised to say this but Jenas made a difference, although i cant understand him being at right back after Dawson went off so that Corluka could move into the middle.

I have to come back to Hudd. Someone said thathe didn't become a bad footballer overnight. Fair enough. But how good a footballer is he really? When is he going to step up. He was lost last night. I couldn't believe he was jogging around oin midfield while the whole game was passing him by.

I don't really know how to feel, as the reality of the ordinariness of our squad has hit me hard. Berbatov and Keane for all the shit they have put us through this summer, were quality players. In games like last night they would have done something to spark our attack and give life to the rest of our team and to the fans that sat so silently in that stadium last night.

Ramos has his work cut out, and thank God we have a couple more games this week so that we have an opportunity to play our way back into some kind of rythm.

But i feel SO deflated today.

 

[Paxtonite]

YAY another massive change in our system thats exactley what we need then when we do badly lets change it all again etc.

its obvious to all that dawson is pants so don't play him.
Ramos played 2 defensive minded midfielders last night which was a problem.
Bentley on the right is a must, jenas in the middle is a must. Woodgate playing is a must but thats about it, that is all that ramos has to go on there are no other certinties in our squad. who should play up front? what is our best back four? bale lb or lm?
No wonder he's having such a hard time if only we could play 12 players...

Oh and finally Jol is a great great manager. The only problem he had (imo) is that he let the players get fat and unfit... was it his job to keep them fit? ramos has an employed dietican that tells the players what to eat? If jol had Ramos's staff i.e that dietican and Gus and these players (which arguabley he may not of been able to get but) IF he had these players then i truly believe we would be top of the table... ok ok top 4....

I don't want to start another pro Jol / anti Jol thread, but he was a good manager that was badly treated. Nevertheless, my point is that he had to buy players that (Naybet, Berbatov and Davids aside) we had rarely heard of...Tainio, Stalteri, Lee, Kaboul, Taraabt, Ghaly etc etc. Ramos is buying "proven" international players now, Modric, Pavlyuchenko, Bentley, Gomes...

The buying quality has moved up a notch, so he generally now has better tools than Jol. Lets see what he does.