SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[mpickard2087]

I know results haven't been great in terms of wins, but I have to say, I'm really enjoying Poch's tactical flexibility this season. Whereas last season he didn't really venture from 4231 and seemed very rigid about this. Now already he has played 4141, 343, 4312. He seems to be adjusting formation depending on which players are available and who the opposition is which is refreshing compared to previous seasons. I think the formation today suits us well. Walker and Rose provide the width as they do normally, a midfield 3 of Winks, Wanyama and Dembele is not too shabby. The main issue is Eriksen and Janssen are off form. I'd like to see this system with either Eriksen playing well or Lamela as the no 10 with Son upfront with Kane.

Either way, well done Poch I didn't know you had it in this in the locker!

I have no problem with a manager trying different formations out and varying the shape of the team, not convinced though that Poch is doing it from a position of strength. To me he's scrabbling around for something to cure our attacking woes (plus the effect of injuries in certain positions tbf), and I'm not sure how effective it's been.

It's the nuts and bolts of the performance, the foundations (pressing, work rate, aggression etc) that are missing, plus a real lack of belief and quality in our work with the ball. Right now to me Poch is tinkering around the edges with regards to the shape, he's not yet addressing the heart of the problem.

 

[Phomesy]

I have no problem with a manager trying different formations out and varying the shape of the team, not convinced though that Poch is doing it from a position of strength. To me he's scrabbling around for something to cure our attacking woes (plus the effect of injuries in certain positions tbf), and I'm not sure how effective it's been.

It's the nuts and bolts of the performance, the foundations (pressing, work rate, aggression etc) that are missing, plus a real lack of belief and quality in our work with the ball. Right now to me Poch is tinkering around the edges with regards to the shape, he's not yet addressing the heart of the problem.

But how else can he address that "heart of the problem"? He's changed shape, personnel, played two strikers, played Son as false 9 - all with success at certain points, less success at others. Workrate, pressing and aggression are team orders and are out of Poch's control ingame. If a player is lacking they will dropped. Presumably. If a player shows commitment they will start like Winks.

Part of our discipline is expecting our attacking players to not over commit and expose our full backs who are high up - so we will never be the thrilling free scoring Liverpool side who are so glorious and mesmeric they fully deserve their massive 3 point lead over us with our stale and insipid style. Nor can we compete with free-scoring City - except they keep leaking goals because their attacking players can only do one thing. A few weeks ago Arsenal were an unstoppable scoring force - now they rely on Giroud to get a header on target...

The point being that if we want to be more dynamic in the final third it comes with the price of being exposed in defence. That's what risk taking requires.

What we need is confidence and trust. Last nights result will hopefully give those a boost

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

One thing that leaps out is Eriksen's role in all facets of our overall game play, making the biggest contribution in Wing Play (by 16%), Direct Play and Centre Play (by 15%) and 2nd in set pieces (by 3% to Lamela).

You can see why some of us value him so highly in this squad, take him off the pitch and you take away our biggest conduit to game play by miles.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

If Eriksen starts against Chelsea I will seriously question Poch's sanity.

 

[mpickard2087]

But how else can he address that "heart of the problem"? He's changed shape, personnel, played two strikers, played Son as false 9 - all with success at certain points, less success at others. Workrate, pressing and aggression are team orders and are out of Poch's control ingame. If a player is lacking they will dropped. Presumably. If a player shows commitment they will start like Winks.

Part of our discipline is expecting our attacking players to not over commit and expose our full backs who are high up - so we will never be the thrilling free scoring Liverpool side who are so glorious and mesmeric they fully deserve their massive 3 point lead over us with our stale and insipid style. Nor can we compete with free-scoring City - except they keep leaking goals because their attacking players can only do one thing. A few weeks ago Arsenal were an unstoppable scoring force - now they rely on Giroud to get a header on target...

The point being that if we want to be more dynamic in the final third it comes with the price of being exposed in defence. That's what risk taking requires.

What we need is confidence and trust. Last nights result will hopefully give those a boost

The pressing game related stuff I think Poch must have eased off on, because otherwise most of the team would have been dropped by now.

Let's ignore that though, the main crux of the problem is our use of the ball and attacking structures. We're struggling to play the ball out of defence, watch how many players are stood still in a game or not finding space, are afraid to get ahead of the ball and come towards it instead, or can't get their heads up and play a telling pass, or don't react in harmony to what other players have done. Some of it is confidence or lack of it, a lot is down to what we're doing to prepare for games and drilling them on the training ground in my opinion.

I took a lot of stick last season for pointing out that, even in victory, a lot of our build up play was pretty ropey, stodgy, and ordinary and could improve greatly. Now that teams have worked us out a bit, certain individuals are struggling for form, and that energy to our game isn't there it's magnified even more. We have to improve.

I don't think it's a case at all of sacrificing defensive solidity in order to achieve this.

 

[danielneeds]

I have no problem with a manager trying different formations out and varying the shape of the team, not convinced though that Poch is doing it from a position of strength. To me he's scrabbling around for something to cure our attacking woes (plus the effect of injuries in certain positions tbf), and I'm not sure how effective it's been.

It's the nuts and bolts of the performance, the foundations (pressing, work rate, aggression etc) that are missing, plus a real lack of belief and quality in our work with the ball. Right now to me Poch is tinkering around the edges with regards to the shape, he's not yet addressing the heart of the problem.

I do agree, that I'm not sure Poch knows his best side at the moment. Last season, you could easily roll off his preferred XI, and it showed, because as the season went on, the team developed better and better chemistry as they became more than the sum of their parts.

This season, for one reason or another, I don't think Poch is sure what XI he'd send out if everybody was available, the defence and Kane picks itself, but the make-up of the midfield is where he's confused.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

If Eriksen starts against Chelsea I will seriously question Poch's sanity.

Even on a bad day it's a case of "in the land of pigmies the 5ft guy is giant" for me. Until we produce a player who's going to bring what Eriksen does he's nailed on.

I'm not sure how you can watch Alli, Son and Lamela (and even Kane some weeks) bumble about like blindfold 5 year olds playing pin the tail on the fucking donkey most weeks and then say Eriksen needs dropping.

Last season he was the second most creative player in the PL in terms of assists (behind Ozil), third for key passes (behind Ozil and Payet) but also saw shitloads more ball and got through much more work off it than both of those two.

His score/assist combo was the same as Alli's (19) but he also saw double the ball, facilitating more chances and goals.

Even this season, with him playing a deeper role he's bringing more creatively than the likes of Alli or Dembele do:

For the record he's also making more key passes per game than anyone in our side (av 2.4, Lamela 2, Son 1.8, Alli 1.6, Kane 1.1)


I think he's been asked to fulfil a slightly different remit this season, and yesterday was a tactical pick and mix that didn't get the best out of anyone.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Even on a bad day it's a case of "in the land of pigmies the 5ft guy is giant" for me. Until we produce a player who's going to bring what Eriksen does he's nailed on.

I'm not sure how you can watch Alli, Son and Lamela (and even Kane some weeks) bumble about like blindfold 5 year olds playing pin the tail on the fucking donkey most weeks and then say Eriksen needs dropping.

Last season he was the second most creative player in the PL in terms of assists (behind Ozil), third for key passes (behind Ozil and Payet) but also saw shitloads more ball and got through much more work off it than both of those two.

His score/assist combo was the same as Alli's (19) but he also saw double the ball, facilitating more chances and goals.

Even this season, with him playing a deeper role he's bringing more creatively than the likes of Alli or Dembele do:

View attachment 26973

For the record he's also making more key passes per game than anyone in our side (av 2.4, Lamela 2, Son 1.8, Alli 1.6, Kane 1.1)


I think he's been asked to fulfil a slightly different remit this season, and yesterday was a tactical pick and mix that didn't get the best out of anyone.

Call me old fashioned if you like but my eyes tell me that Eriksen has been absolutely useless this season. I like Eriksen but I think he is woefully off form. You know I'm a Son fan and I know you get annoyed by his running into the opposition. I think that's because he takes risks, I wish they came off more often but quite frankly if they come off twice in a game that is far more productive than Eriksen passing to the opposition. What your stats don't tell you about Son or Alli is how they stretch the opposition and create space for others. That was so evident yesterday when Son came on. So yes I'd have both Son and Alli ahead of Eriksen on current form.

 

[Phomesy]

Call me old fashioned if you like but my eyes tell me that Eriksen has been absolutely useless this season. ... What your stats don't tell you about Son or Alli is how they stretch the opposition and create space for others. That was so evident yesterday when Son came on. So yes I'd have both Son and Alli ahead of Eriksen on current form.

What team selection tells you about Eriksen is that Poch thinks he's indispensable and doing his job - albeit without the goals we'd like.

People want Eriksen to be taking all sorts of risks and being "flair". The moment he tries that and breaks team rules is the moment he gets dropped.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

What team selection tells you about Eriksen is that Poch thinks he's indispensable and doing his job - albeit without the goals we'd like.

People want Eriksen to be taking all sorts of risks and being "flair". The moment he tries that and breaks team rules is the moment he gets dropped.

No "people" just want Eriksen to find a Spurs shirt when he passes, beat a man occasionally when he tries to dribble, deliver a corner that creates a chance, take a free kick that works the opposing goalkeeper. He has played due to injuries and poor form from others not because he is indispensable as I suspect we will find out in the next couple of games. Remember that Poch himself has singled out Eriksen for criticism this season.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No "people" just want Eriksen to find a Spurs shirt when he passes, beat a man occasionally when he tries to dribble, deliver a corner that creates a chance, take a free kick that works the opposing goalkeeper. He has played due to injuries and poor form from others not because he is indispensable as I suspect we will find out in the next couple of games. Remember that Poch himself has singled out Eriksen for criticism this season.

Which, facts show, he does more than anyone else creatively.

You talk about "finding a spurs shirt" and then sing Son's praises, who even this season hasn't done that more than Eriksen. He's scored more goals but that's hardly surprising consider he's being played as a forward and Eriksen more as a midfielder.

IMO both should be starting right now and both would benefit from each other.

For me a much bigger issue is Pochettnio's continued picking of Dembele - who not only is slowing us down but is continually getting caught dithering on the ball, a crime everyone wanted a 20yo Bentaleb tarred and feathered for.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Which, facts show, he does more than anyone else creatively.

You talk about "finding a spurs shirt" and then sing Son's praises, who even this season hasn't done that more than Eriksen. He's scored more goals but that's hardly surprising consider he's being played as a forward and Eriksen more as a midfielder.

IMO both should be starting right now and both would benefit from each other.

For me a much bigger issue is Pochettnio's continued picking of Dembele - who not only is slowing us down but is continually getting caught dithering on the ball, a crime everyone wanted a 20yo Bentaleb tarred and death for.

No surprise but I disagree about Dembele too. I don't think he is fully fit but he offers us the ability to create space by breaking the lines of the opposition. Arguably our problems offensively this season have come from splitting up the Dier/Dembele axis and bringing in Wanyama, who although good invidually appears to have disrupted our offensive rhythm.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

What team selection tells you about Eriksen is that Poch thinks he's indispensable and doing his job - albeit without the goals we'd like.

People want Eriksen to be taking all sorts of risks and being "flair". The moment he tries that and breaks team rules is the moment he gets dropped.

So what does tonight's team selection tell you about Eriksen ?

 

[Phomesy]

So what does tonight's team selection tell you about Eriksen ?

Rested for Chelsea. Unwisely as we are being slaughtered by Monaco early doors

 

[lukespurs7]

Stating the obvious here but a few real negatives:
1. We play out from the back and pass around the baxk WAY too much. It's keeping the ball for no reason, it's risky and pointless.
2. We have a huge lack of pace so our attack is toothless
3. As a result of number 2 or as part of potchs tactical plan we use the full backs for width, if teams shut them off we offer nothing going forward.
4. Everything Is backs to goal, so slow and predictable and easy to defend.
5. Energy and confidence, both completely gone.

Now is this down to potch being found out?
Is this down to poor recruiting?
Did we do well last year just because the league was in face really poor and now we're at our true level?

All very depressing at the moment really and this isn't knee-jerk we just have been so off colour all season bar about 2 games vs Stoke and man.city.

 

[Cravenspurs]

Stating the obvious here but a few real negatives:
1. We play out from the back and pass around the baxk WAY too much. It's keeping the ball for no reason, it's risky and pointless.
2. We have a huge lack of pace so our attack is toothless
3. As a result of number 2 or as part of potchs tactical plan we use the full backs for width, if teams shut them off we offer nothing going forward.
4. Everything Is backs to goal, so slow and predictable and easy to defend.
5. Energy and confidence, both completely gone.

Now is this down to potch being found out?
Is this down to poor recruiting?
Did we do well last year just because the league was in face really poor and now we're at our true level?

All very depressing at the moment really and this isn't knee-jerk we just have been so off colour all season bar about 2 games vs Stoke and man.city.

It is his preferred style of play. There is no real answer outside of that this is how he sets up his team to play. He believes in a high line, midfield/forward press, and a possession style of game. He believes, like Pep and other high intensity coaches that the more you have he ball, the more you control the game. Simple.

But why is it not working like it did last year?

1) We are not pressing as much
2) Our midfield has changed and is now even slower than it was last year. Slow in terms of ball movement.
3) our FBs are not getting into as advanced positions as they did last year. This is due to our inept midfield that can't move the ball up the pitch forcing the FBs to become the catalyst forward. This results in Walker and Rose having to pick the lock when they are really the folks supposed to be on the end of that picked lock.
4) lack of form
5) Dembele not being that player everyone thought he was.

For me, we have talent, but we have a coach that is far too risk averse. He would rather control the game when sometimes you just have to let go. Look at Monoco. Sure we want some of their players now, but do they really have MORE talent than us? Nope. We have players, we are just not playing a style of play that works for them.

Look at Dortmund under Klopp his last year. They didn't perform and then Tuchel came in with the same team all of a sudden looks like a different beast.

Does that mean we need a change in manager? No, but we do need to change something cause this risk averse, slow passage of play style will not be a pretty deal to watch. Sure we might win and draw more than we lose, but it will continue to be painful to watch.

 

[Shadydan]

Some good stuff posted by CFC on the role of Dier and Vertonghen and how they are able to play as the spare men when we attack giving us another dimension when we go forward.

http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnatio...tspur-tactical-analysis-vertonghen-dier-3-5-2

And I think this goes some way to answering the question that @nicdic (if you're still actually asking this question) has been asking as to why we need Wanyama on the field or a dedicated DMF there if we are playing with 3 at the back, it's because he provides cover for when they step up so that we don't leave gaps in transition when the opposition counter.

If you look at this clip, you'll see how Victor drops back so that Jan can get forward and play in midfield, he is providing cover.

And you can briefly see here that Victor drops back and covers Dier when he goes forward

And here:

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Some good stuff posted by CFC on the role of Dier and Vertonghen and how they are able to play as the spare men when we attack giving us another dimension when we go forward.

http://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnatio...tspur-tactical-analysis-vertonghen-dier-3-5-2

And I think this goes some way to answering the question that @nicdic (if you're still actually asking this question) has been asking as to why we need Wanyama on the field or a dedicated DMF there if we are playing with 3 at the back, it's because he provides cover for when they step up so that we don't leave gaps in transition when the opposition counter.

If you look at this clip, you'll see how Victor drops back so that Jan can get forward and play in midfield, he is providing cover.

And you can briefly see here that Victor drops back and covers Dier when he goes forward

And here:

Good find. I said something similar a few days ago in my ratings post:

This formation really suits us, for various reasons. It means we can pull teams horizontally as well as push them vertically, making it much harder for teams to funnel us narrow and frustrate us, as with the 4231. It also allows us to play a kind of double pivoting pair of 10's, instead of pushing either or both of Eriksen and Alli into wider ARM/ALM positions, which one, or both, inevitably become. All three of our CB's can play football, and we saw that several times today with all of them at various times stepping out and moving up the pitch to supplement game play.



The CB's all deserve a shout too, all played well today, and having CB's that can all drive out and take part in game play is like having 5 CM's at times, and is incredibly hard to play against, as it makes high pressing harder as there is much more chance your high press will be broken.

Initially when we first used the structure I liked it, but questioned the use of it the first time we used it against weaker opposition at home (as did others like @nicdic I think) against Hull I think, I questioned the rationale of having one less body in the forward group against deep defence (bus park) opposition, but I have since been completely converted to the format and the positives it brings, enabling us to not be forced "narrow", getting Eriksen and Alli into double pivoting "10" roles (especially vital for us getting Eriksen into that roaming playmaking role) and, as I said above, all three of our CB's can move forward into midfield.

 

[stevenqoz]

Good find. I said something similar a few days ago in my ratings post:




Initially when we first used the structure I liked it, but questioned the use of it the first time we used it against weaker opposition at home (as did others like @nicdic I think) against Hull I think, I questioned the rationale of having one less body in the forward group against deep defence (bus park) opposition, but I have since been completely converted to the format and the positives it brings, enabling us to not be forced "narrow", getting Eriksen and Alli into double pivoting "10" roles (especially vital for us getting Eriksen into that roaming playmaking role) and, as I said above, all three of our CB's can move forward into midfield.

Times change eh BC? Three at the back never to seen in the EPL

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Times change eh BC? Three at the back never to seen in the EPL

We are living in interesting times SQ, and not in the bad Chinese proverb way...

 

[THFCSPURS19]

This video is so satisfying.