Some thoughts on the new stadium

[spud]

It has become obvious over the last few weeks that, if our bid for the Olympic Park development is accepted, then we are moving to Stratford. This has been discussed at length on SC and numerous other forums, with opinions ranging from those who think it will be the best thing that has ever happened to the club (or possibly in the history of the world) to those who declare that the move would end their support of the mighty Spurs.

We can only assume that the move has been prompted by financial motives, both short and long-term. We have to assume this because it would have to be a compelling reason for us to consider leaving our spiritual, and physical, home. It is obvious that the extra 3,750 seats in the Stratford stadium will generate more revenue than at the 'Naming Rights', and it is arguable that the closer proximity to the City, and superior transport links, will have a similar beneficial effect on sponsorship and corporate events - particularly on days when matches are not being played. All well and good.

The real financial motivation, however, appears to be the reported disparity in the cost of developing the two sites. We are told that the Northumberland Development Project will cost £200m more than re-developing the Stratford site. Personally, I believe this to be a significant exaggeration, as (unless I have missed something) I don't believe that it takes into account the revenues from the sale of the hotel, supermarket, and flats. Nevertheless, it is safe to assume that there will be a significant saving to be made in moving rather than proceeding with the NDP.

Significantly, the Chairman's recent statement included the news that funding for the OS development is already in place, whereas we still do not own all of the land required for the NDP and (by implication) have not yet arranged funding. In the current economic climate, this might conceivably mean that it is the OS or nothing. That if we don't win the bid next week, we will be staying at the Lane - with its current capacity - indefinitely.

My feelings towards the stadium development have changed. They have roughly followed the stages that a revolutionary new idea has to go through until it becomes accepted. [I have doubtless got these wrong as I can't be arsed to research them.]

1. Incredulity.
'WTF?' followed by 'Nice one Dan: putting the wind up the authorities so that the remaining stages of the planning procedure go smoothly'.

2. Disbelief / dismissal
'Hang on, we've got AEG as a partner. Those boys don't fuck about. We can't be serious, can we? No, we're just stringing everybody along, including AEG. Those suckers don't know who they're playing with; our Dan's the man. We're not really serious.'

3. Outrage
'Fuck me, we're serious! That c*** Levy! He's prepared to shit on 100 years of history just to fatten the club so he and his idle f****** partner Lewis can sell up and make a killing. Bastard! He'll never get away with it.'

4. Acceptance
Acceptance was a tough one. I first went to the Lane in 1968. I've seen us win two UEFA Cups there. I've seen more great players and matches than I care to remember. It's not just the club's spiritual home: it's mine. I love the place, and the whole experience of going there. I will really, really miss it.

But then I looked at the bigger picture. Yes, the Lane is part of the club and its history - and I would prefer to stay there - but it isn't 'the club'. I don't support White Hart Lane, I support Tottenham Hotspur. I've enjoyed taking the piss out of Woolwich and I understand that we'll be moving to east London. But you know what: I realise that those things aren't important. I don't care that we're moving on to Orient's manor (no, Brady and the porn twins, not yours) and that those retards from Cashburden Grove might be the only club still in north London. I'm from north London, and it doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is our club. Its continued existence. The fact that it is well run. The fact that we play football the 'Tottenham way' (all right so I'm old school: deal with it), and the fact that we are successful. I want it to really be the best, most successful club in world football - not just in my head, but actually: in the real world. I couldn't give a flying f*** for the Olympic legacy, or about what Karen Brady, Seb Coe, David Lammy or anybody else thinks or says. I love Tottenham Hotspur, and I want what is best for it. I want my club to be (as the song says) the greatest the world has ever seen.

If the first stage of achieving that is moving to Stratford, so be it.

I'm in.

 

[yido_number1]

I personally don't think we have a hope in hell of winning the site due to the running track, however what ever happens we still need to get behind the club and support whatever decisions they make...

 

[wee_spur]

I laughed out loud reading this. I mirror your points 1-3 almost to the letter! Haven't quite got to 4 yet as don't want to have to just yet. I'll deal with that as and when I have to.

That said, I am still undecided. I can see good and bad from both sides. Definately a Head vs Heart problem.

Good post.

 

[Gilzeanking]

I'd add that for me WHL lost its iconic status when they pulled down the big white stands .

Very difficult to work from the figures as each side will put forward only those that support their argument .

Reduction in our OS bill from sale of WHL...that been factored in ? . All the ins and outs of Haringey's position clear for everyone ?

I just hope the right decision is made with regard to the club's future and not for some short term benefit .

 

[hugefanfromwayback]

I'm sure this summarises a lot of our sentiments exactly. Spot on mate.

 

[SimonSpur]

Thanks for a well written, well thought-out article mate.

I can't agree with you, though. The move comes down to money, pure and simple. I agree we'll save a lot by moving to Stratford (but like you, I think the £200m figure has been exaggerated), but we'll lose a lot too...

No matter what we tell ourselves, winning cups and titles in Stratford won't feel the same. We'll be Tottenham in name only.

Man City are soon to be "the greatest the world has ever seen" with all their billions. But I look there and it just looks soulless, and any titles and cups will be tainted for how they've been acquired.

They didn't get to where they are by being run well, by slowly developing a squad and youth set-up to carry them into the future. Up until now, however, we have been run well, and have worked hard to get into the position we're in. When we beat City to secure fourth, when we smashed the European Champions at The Lane, there were few greater feelings because they'd been hard-earned, and well deserved.

But moving to a place we would never have condoned had it been planned (imagine the outcry had Northumberland been announced as being built in Stratford...), just to save money? It smacks of the very same soullessness that has turned City into a vapid shell of what it used to be.

I know some of you will disagree with me, and want only success for Spurs, whatever it takes to achieve it. I understand that, but I know I won't be able to agree with it. Whatever I tell myself, I'll know that we won't be in North London anymore, the place that THFC was born. That long walk up the High Road with my brother, that is Tottenham. The place that Bill Nic's ashes are resting, that is Tottenham. The part of London that gave us our name, our identity. That won't be there any more for a club that is based in Stratford, however "economically viable", or whatever the potential to capture the "valuable client base of Canary Wharf". I don't want those people there anyway.

I would rather lose out on this extra money. Even if it means losing out on a trophy (I don't even think we will, tough. I think we'll march on fine without the extra cash, and I doubt if much of the savings would go into player investment anyway). In 20 years time, I want to take my son to Tottenham, not to Stratford.

The club isn't the players. It isn't the manager or the owners. It is the fans, of course. But it is also the place. Say what you like, we won't be Tottenham Hostpur any more if we move to Statford. We'll be called a franchise by fans of other teams, and while it won't feel quite that extreme, we'll all know that we only left N17 for money.

And alongside all of this, there are plans for a new stadium in Tottenham. We've all seen them. It will cost more, yes. It will also take more time to build, with many more obstacles to do so. The journey is going to remain a pain, both in getting the new stadium in Tottenham and getting there when it's done. Haringey Council won't be helping us much, it seems. And of course, we'll miss out on that "lucrative City market in Canary Wharf and the closer European railway links".

But we will get there. And we'll keep the soul of the club by doing so. And when it's all done, we will still be Tottenham. I know without any doubt in my heart that that will feel better than any trophies won in Stratford.

 

[onthetwo]

I personally don't think we have a hope in hell of winning the site due to the running track, however what ever happens we still need to get behind the club and support whatever decisions they make...

me either....and i think its back to the drawing board if we're right.
:shrug:

 

[mkkid]

So what you guys are saying is that the chairmain has spent 6 years on a stadium and million of pounds on something that isnt viable!

 

[davidmatzdorf]

It has become obvious over the last few weeks that, if our bid for the Olympic Park development is accepted, then we are moving to Stratford...

It's a well thought out post, but I'd counsel everyone to discount the inevitability of this initial statement heavily. Levy and co. are making heavily-pro-Stratford noises mainly because the bid process is coming to a head. They aren't exactly going to be saying "well, if we win the bid, we may stay in N17 after all", are they? Of course not: they're spinning like crazy to make sure that we stand the best possible chance of winning the option of moving to Stratford.

It may be the sterling silver truth that the NDP is not viable at present. Or we may win the bid and then, a week later, the spin will suddenly change: presto, both options are eminently possible and we have a decision to make: the cue to stage a consultation exercise, once the detailed Stratford plan can be shown.

I don't have any inside information, but I can spot spin when I see it and every word of the anti-NDP, pro-Stratford rhetoric emanating from the club for the past fortnight has been aimed at the objective of winning the bid. Bowl of salt.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

So what you guys are saying is that the chairmain has spent 6 years on a stadium and million of pounds on something that isnt viable!

It was viable 18 months ago. The financial environment has changed drastically and it's possibly not viable anymore. However, see my post immediately above.

I've written a number of posts on the financial viability point. The search facility may help.

 

[dickyid]

Wasn't Rudolphs one of the buildings that English heritage were so desperate to save too? Wonder how much that decision cost us?

 

[newbie]

We have to factor in the big picture not emition of loylaty to WHL Tottenham teh brand needs to succeed please bare this in mind.

I Have freinds that work in property finance and Arsenal nearly went bankcrupt by all accounts twice we are talking last last minute they managed to pull it out the bag and re finance or get money to pay there paymnets.

 

[ThorntonSpur]

Good post - one thing that sticks out though is 36000 is not big enough whatever the future holds.

there will be a lot more political in fighting to be done before a new stadium is built.

my view steers towards not getting the OS bid because of legacy and palace now looking to move into CP stadium .

If that happens we need to push on with NPD asap and see if we can use wembley for a couple of seasons.

we need a stadium asap and if we stay put haringay should pull out all the stops to get building started this year if not whos to say a third option may be looked at further north in london

 

[leic_spur_daveed]

Great article

I want to see Tottenham play in a stadium that not only reflects the clubs size but a stadium that also represents the clubs infrastructure and commercial capabilities. It would be an image boost, as well as providing better transport links, more seating and greater income from ticket sales.

The Olympic Stadium may or may not be offered to us, it's no reason to be concerned because one thing the board have opened our eyes to through this bidding process is the possibility of moving the club to a location within London that isn't in Tottenham and if we're cynical we can ponder Levy's financial motives but I fall into the category of thinking that a solution to developing White Hart Lane has been dragging on unsuccesfully ever since I can remember and these steps towards finding a better stadium are the steps many fans have been yearning for for too long.

So what I'm saying is that to win the bid would be my ideal scenario, To fail in the bid and get a new stadium elsewhere in London would be my second preference and to stay at White Hart Lane and keep pushing the local council would be third.

Though if we win, it puts our nearest neighbours as the Spammers, which will make matches between the two sides the East London Derby. Which is a weird thought.

 

[jolsnogross]

Contrary to several posters who think this was a well thought out article, I find it hard to believe it was written by an adult.

and that those retards from Cashburden Grove
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White Hart Lane is not the club, but the club isn't some ethereal entity in your head without a grounding in history or geography. It originated from somewhere and developed a character and heritage in relation to that origin.

In the context of English football, the MK Dons is farce. In the context of finance and sports franchising, MK Dons makes a certain amount of sense. A move to Stratford means we'll be joining the ranks of MK Dons.

 

[Lilbaz]

I have had enough of the mid table mediocrity with a trophy every 10 years (one the top teams can't be arsed to win). I've had the taste of the goodlife and am addicted. I want to go further, I want to see Spurs win the league and the Champions league. Fuck being the best team in North London, I want to be the best team in the world, because in my heart they always have been. This is the opportunity of a lifetime that will give us the best chance of realising that dream, we should take it with both hands.

Also I can get a train straight from my house to the stadium

 

[bones82]

I might get to Acceptance if can show, what regeneration will be done to our current home Tottenham (maybe I care about this more as I live here, only potential advantage is quieter on match days, but kind of irrelevant if going to the game)
Levy I think mentions three regeneration projects after 8mins.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympic_games/london_2012/9371972.stm

How will the pitch be protected from AEG events? Just look at the problems Wembley has had sharing the ground with concerts, and they don't have a premiership club playing there.

The NDP is shown to be a lot more expensive, a proper comparison given of the overall cost for each having taken into account all section 106's, land resale vs supermarket and hotel.

We keep our name.

 

[spud]

Contrary to several posters who think this was a well thought out article, I find it hard to believe it was written by an adult.

Thanks for the critique.

White Hart Lane is not the club, but the club isn't some ethereal entity in your head without a grounding in history or geography. It originated from somewhere and developed a character and heritage in relation to that origin.

It originated from a cricket club, but I don't suppose that you would find many who would suggest that cricket forms part of the club today. I understand the history (and geography), and have shared in a sizeable chunk of it. My point, in a nutshell, is that the future is ultimately more important than the past - even though it is vital that you remember who you are and that you carry the past with you.

In the context of English football, the MK Dons is farce.

Agreed. Not because of the move, but because Wimbledon ditched its past simply to chase a 'virgin market' in a hitherto untapped catchment area. MK Dons effectively severed all connection with Wimbledon FC, keeping only its Football League status.

That is not what is proposed here, any than it was when (among others) Sunderland moved from Roker to the Stadium Of Light, Citeh moved from Maine Road to City Of Manchester Stadium, or Stoke moved from the Potteries to the Britannia Stadium. It is clearly a question of degree, and which aspects of it are more important varies between individuals. (Would we, for example, have had a similar level of opposition to a possible move if the new site was Picketts Lock?)

In the context of finance and sports franchising, MK Dons makes a certain amount of sense. A move to Stratford means we'll be joining the ranks of MK Dons.

I don't know the finances of Wimbledon / MK Dons, so can't comment on that, but to suggest that our proposed move is comparable is somewhat over-stating the argument; even for those most vehemently opposed to the move. Unless, of course, you equate those other clubs that I have mentioned with the MK Dons.

In deciding whether it is acceptable - under certain circumstances - for the club to move ultimately crystallises into one question: do we move and survive or stay here and die. If the answer is always 'we must stay in Tottenham' then no move is ever acceptable. Otherwise it is simply a question of degree. All I was saying was, given the circumstances as we understand them, that I reluctantly accept that a move might the best thing for the future of the club, and that it is therefore acceptable.

 

[pook]

... In deciding whether it is acceptable - under certain circumstances - for the club to move ultimately crystallises into one question: do we move and survive or stay here and die ...

this kind of stuff really does my head in.

 

[Geez]

Why we should be backing Spurs for the Olympics

Evening Standard article