What's new

Spurs hater David Baddeil in "not that Jewish" shocker!!!!

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
But that means nothing. I could say I'm a Jedi and wear the robes and wave a broom stick around making really good swooshing sounds and everything. Get everyone I know to agree I'm a Jedi. But it's still not true.

Jews arnt a race.

The whole concept of a 'race' is obsolete and unhelpful. When applied to Jews it is also heavily freighted with racist baggage. But it does not follow that it is strictly a matter of religious faith. There is a vast amount of culture and ethnicity that goes into being Jewish. There is also identifiable biology and genetics, which is a lot more relevant than the misleading word 'race'.

But I resist very strongly the nonsense that being Jewish is solely about religious observance or belief.
 

CosmicHotspur

Better a wag than a WAG
Aug 14, 2006
51,069
22,383
If you are born a Jew, no matter what religion you decide to practise you are still Jewish.

If you are not born a Jew and you convert to Judaism you may be defined as a Jew by religion but not by birth.

It can actually be both a religion and an ethnic/genetic ancestry.
 

Mustard

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2012
10,781
20,141
The whole concept of a 'race' is obsolete and unhelpful. When applied to Jews it is also heavily freighted with racist baggage. But it does not follow that it is strictly a matter of religious faith. There is a vast amount of culture and ethnicity that goes into being Jewish. There is also identifiable biology and genetics, which is a lot more relevant than the misleading word 'race'.

But I resist very strongly the nonsense that being Jewish is solely about religious observance or belief.


That's absolutely fine Dave. You are entitled to believe what you want. You can class your gang how you want.

What you can't do though is call Jews a race of people. Well you can but it would make you incorrect. Its like calling Muslims a race.

In regard to genetics you are a gnats hair away from the Palestinians I believe.
 

CoopsieDeadpool

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2012
18,257
70,419
Just watching 8 out of 10 cats do countdown and David Baddeil is one of the guests.

Two people mentioned not using the word "porked" so as not to offend the proud defender of the Jew*

His reply was "Oh come on I'm not that Jewish"

I'd love to hear him explain that one.



*May or not have been proclaimed by Mr Baddeil in his anti Spurs rants.


I can understand why you felt the need to make a topic out of this, @Dundalk_Spur .. This is the same person who was VERY open about the offence he feels when our supporters chant "Yid Army" or as was the case in the past, "Jermain Defoe is a Yiddo", but proudly supports a club that has supporters that make hissing (Gas Chamber) noises almost every time they play against us, yet he's never made a single mention of that?

Fist in the air, in the land of hypocrisy (y)

 

specspurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2011
391
403
The whole concept of a 'race' is obsolete and unhelpful. When applied to Jews it is also heavily freighted with racist baggage. But it does not follow that it is strictly a matter of religious faith. There is a vast amount of culture and ethnicity that goes into being Jewish. There is also identifiable biology and genetics, which is a lot more relevant than the misleading word 'race'.

But I resist very strongly the nonsense that being Jewish is solely about religious observance or belief.
You are correct about the biology and genetics,even the NHS accepts the genetic nature of certain conditions that are transmitted more frequently in Ashkenazi Jews than in the general population.
 

Mustard

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2012
10,781
20,141
You are correct about the biology and genetics,even the NHS accepts the genetic nature of certain conditions that are transmitted more frequently in Ashkenazi Jews than in the general population.


AshkeNAZI Jews?

Is this a wind up?
 

specspurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2011
391
403
AshkeNAZI Jews?

Is this a wind up?
No,this is not a wind up,these are Jews who basically originated from Central and Eastern Europe,which would be the vast majority of Jews in Britain,enough for the NHS to take it seriously...but I can't believe I'm talking about this on a football site.
 

Mustard

Well-Known Member
Nov 14, 2012
10,781
20,141
No,this is not a wind up,these are Jews who basically originated from Central and Eastern Europe,which would be the vast majority of Jews in Britain,enough for the NHS to take it seriously...but I can't believe I'm talking about this on a football site.


Well you live and learn. What an unfortunate name for them.
 

TheSpillage

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2013
892
2,543
I can understand why you felt the need to make a topic out of this, @Dundalk_Spur .. This is the same person who was VERY open about the offence he feels when our supporters chant "Yid Army" or as was the case in the past, "Jermain Defoe is a Yiddo", but proudly supports a club that has supporters that make hissing (Gas Chamber) noises almost every time they play against us, yet he's never made a single mention of that?

Fist in the air, in the land of hypocrisy (y)



Yes, but he always makes a mention of it:

" Abuse towards black players, thankfully, tends now to be individuals, odd shouts, easily targeted and dealt with. Chelsea has a policy, in fact, of encouraging its fans to report racism to the stewards, who should throw the racist out. But it's no good reporting the whole back half of the Matthew Harding Stand to the stewards.

I used to sit in that stand, until three seasons ago; the racism was one of the reasons I moved round to sit in the posher East Stand, where at least you can only hear the anti-Semites, rather than having to hug them when Chelsea score"

" But then, occasionally, when we're playing Tottenham, the hardest section of the crowd, the ones at the back of the Matthew Harding Stand, will start emitting an elongated hiss, supposed to emulate the sound of the gas chambers. And I'm not really sure how funny that is."

"Our film was sparked by the behaviour of a Chelsea fan who, sitting a few seats behind me and Ivor one Saturday, decided to upgrade the chant – regularly heard at Stamford Bridgewhenever anything Spurs-related comes up – to a more pointed one of "Fuck the fucking Yids! Fuck the fucking Jews!". The chant, and various antisemitic tropes which always grow out of it – involving hissing to represent gas and celebratory references toAuschwitz – exists far beyond White Hart Lane: at Chelsea, Arsenal, Millwall, West Ham, even at Ajax."

But some of you will still come back and tell me it's all about Spurs so I dunno why I keep bothering :)
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Well you live and learn. What an unfortunate name for them.

It's a name that predates the German National Socialist Party by many centuries. You're on the edge of being a bit out of order here, but I'm going to put it down to ignorance and a reluctance to use Google before you start expostulating.

Broadly speaking, the 'Ashkenazim' or 'Ashkenazi Jews' are the Jews of Northern and Eastern Europe, which includes my ancestors, who lived in what we would now call Lithuania, Belarus and Northern Germany - and my surname is the name of a village which is now in Poland.

The 'Sephardim' or 'Sephardic Jews' are the Jews of Southern Europe and North Africa.

They have distinct ethnic traits, distinct genetic differences from each other and from non-Jewish people in their [former] countries and differing artistic and cultural heritages.

Not knowing the meaning of 'Ashkenazi' seriously undermines your contention that being Jewish is solely a matter of religion and isn't a 'race', because it shows that your views were not formed in the presence of knowledge: you don't know much about Jews, Judaism and history at all.
 
Last edited:

CoopsieDeadpool

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2012
18,257
70,419
Yes, but he always makes a mention of it:

" Abuse towards black players, thankfully, tends now to be individuals, odd shouts, easily targeted and dealt with. Chelsea has a policy, in fact, of encouraging its fans to report racism to the stewards, who should throw the racist out. But it's no good reporting the whole back half of the Matthew Harding Stand to the stewards.

I used to sit in that stand, until three seasons ago; the racism was one of the reasons I moved round to sit in the posher East Stand, where at least you can only hear the anti-Semites, rather than having to hug them when Chelsea score"

" But then, occasionally, when we're playing Tottenham, the hardest section of the crowd, the ones at the back of the Matthew Harding Stand, will start emitting an elongated hiss, supposed to emulate the sound of the gas chambers. And I'm not really sure how funny that is."

"Our film was sparked by the behaviour of a Chelsea fan who, sitting a few seats behind me and Ivor one Saturday, decided to upgrade the chant – regularly heard at Stamford Bridgewhenever anything Spurs-related comes up – to a more pointed one of "Fuck the fucking Yids! Fuck the fucking Jews!". The chant, and various antisemitic tropes which always grow out of it – involving hissing to represent gas and celebratory references toAuschwitz – exists far beyond White Hart Lane: at Chelsea, Arsenal, Millwall, West Ham, even at Ajax."

But some of you will still come back and tell me it's all about Spurs so I dunno why I keep bothering :)


So you're intimating that he's not a hypocritical twat?. The man who doesn’t abide racism in any form? Here he is making absolutely sure that people understand that Jews are not figures of fun.



And here he is showing enormous respect to black people who, apparently, have also run into a spot of bother ‘race wise' in the past.



I think Mr Stephen Fry has it about right!!

"It’s now very common to hear people say, ‘I’m rather offended by that.’ As if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more… than a whine.
‘I find that offensive.’ It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. ‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so f*cking what.
 

Amo

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
15,795
31,480
But that means nothing. I could say I'm a Jedi and wear the robes and wave a broom stick around making really good swooshing sounds and everything. Get everyone I know to agree I'm a Jedi. But it's still not true.

Jews arnt a race.

Actually, they are an ethnoreligious group. And the term 'Jew' pertains to both ethnicity and religion.

It differs from the other Abrahamic religions in this regard. I'm from a Muslim family but I would never ever call myself a Muslim. I am, however, ethnically Kurdish.

It can be confusing, though. The term "non-Jewish Jew" doesn't make sense the way "non-Arab Muslim" does.

@davidmatzdorf How would the disctiction be made between the ethnicity and the religion?
 

Metalhead

But that's a debate for another thread.....
Nov 24, 2013
25,351
38,294
That's clearly not true though.

It's like Christians who don't attend church. Just because they do it their own way doesn't make them 'less Christian' and I'm sure there are similar degrees of following Judaism.

Some, for example, may choose to ignore the eating pork element as they believe that it was something more relevant to the past than the present, but they can still follow other elements of the faith.

Baddiel is a hypocrite for his views on Spurs and Chelsea fans and what they sing, but he's genuinely done nothing wrong here.
Exactly. I think his point was that he's not particularly observant rather than not particularly a member of the religion itself. I can understand the confusion though.
 

CoopsieDeadpool

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2012
18,257
70,419
Actually, they are an ethnoreligious group. And the term 'Jew' pertains to both ethnicity and religion.

It differs from the other Abrahamic religions in this regard. I'm from a Muslim family but I would never ever call myself a Muslim. I am, however, ethnically Kurdish.

It can be confusing, though. The term "non-Jewish Jew" doesn't make sense the way "non-Arab Muslim" does.

@davidmatzdorf How would the disctiction be made between the ethnicity and the religion?


It's bugger all to do with the topic, but when I lived in Seven Sisters (early to mid eighties, and then early nineties) there was a 'group' that was known as the PKK. I didn't know what it meant at the time, I'm still not sure what it means now, but I do remember being told it was something to do with the Kurdish people.

I don't know if you're aware of Seven Sisters? It's a bloody rough shit-hole of a place, extremely ethnically diverse & plenty of race related crime and violence. Blacks would beat up whites, Asians would attack blacks etc etc etc BUT, for some reason, there weren't many people who wanted to get on the wrong side of the PKK ..

Like I said, bugger all to do with the discussion, but you've jogged a memory I'd long forgotten. (y)
 

Amo

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
15,795
31,480
It's bugger all to do with the topic, but when I lived in Seven Sisters (early to mid eighties, and then early nineties) there was a 'group' that was known as the PKK. I didn't know what it meant at the time, I'm still not sure what it means now, but I do remember being told it was something to do with the Kurdish people.

I don't know if you're aware of Seven Sisters? It's a bloody rough shit-hole of a place, extremely ethnically diverse & plenty of race related crime and violence. Blacks would beat up whites, Asians would attack blacks etc etc etc BUT, for some reason, there weren't many people who wanted to get on the wrong side of the PKK ..

Like I said, bugger all to do with the discussion, but you've jogged a memory I'd long forgotten. (y)

Yeah, I live near Seven Sisters. It's calmed down a bit now, compared to five years or so ago. The PKK are an armed political party fighting for Kurdish rights in Turkey. They have cells all over Europe.
 

davidmatzdorf

Front Page Gadfly
Jun 7, 2004
18,106
45,030
Actually, they are an ethnoreligious group. And the term 'Jew' pertains to both ethnicity and religion.

It differs from the other Abrahamic religions in this regard. I'm from a Muslim family but I would never ever call myself a Muslim. I am, however, ethnically Kurdish.

It can be confusing, though. The term "non-Jewish Jew" doesn't make sense the way "non-Arab Muslim" does.

@davidmatzdorf How would the distinction be made between the ethnicity and the religion?

I like the description 'an ethnoreligious group'.

But I'm not sure there's a need to make a distinction between the ethnicity and the religion, at least not for the purposes of [self]definition. A lot of the trouble here, as you have suggested, is that we have one word ('Jewish') for a spectrum of overlapping and mutually-influencing biological and cultural influences. That makes it easy for one ignorant person to insist that 'it's solely a religion' and another ignorant person to insist that 'it's a race'.

And that's much of what is behind my earlier post about who gets to define this. The thread is still being littered with posts from non-Jewish people who want to define Jewishness and they don't get that privilege.

If I were to make a distinction, it would be the same distinction as would apply to any other ethnic group whose members usually share a religious belief-structure: religion is a faith-based (as opposed to evidence-based) view of the universe, generally learned from one's family and typified by the conviction that one's own religion possesses the sole absolute truth.

Ethnicity is an amalgam of culture, tradition and land or place (the French have a great word terroir that is useful here) with the genetic relatedness that comes from any group breeding largely within its membership over the course of many centuries. There is a biological/genetic (and therefore evidence-based) component to ethnicity and that is entirely untrue of religion.

There is also genetic drift, which is shown in the fact that Sephardim look different from Ashkenazim (and that isn't even considering the Falasha, the Jews of Ethiopia) and have different hereditary diseases. But there is more than enough research on the genetic relatedness of Jews to rule out the 'only a religion' argument. In the same way, modern genetic research has destroyed the 'Jewish race' argument , indeed has exposed the whole concept of 'race' as biological bullshit.

So I guess it's an ethnoreligious group - you're broadly stuck with the 'ethno' bit, but how much 'religious' you mix with your 'ethno' is a matter for individual choice.
 
Top