Spurs hater David Baddeil in "not that Jewish" shocker!!!!

cockeral

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That's nice but I disagree completely for various reasons, but you are entitled to believing what you believe is a fact.
That's a little condescending and patronising to say "what you believe is a fact." For your info it is actually a scientific fact and proven that Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion.
 

Amo

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I like the description 'an ethnoreligious group'.

But I'm not sure there's a need to make a distinction between the ethnicity and the religion, at least not for the purposes of [self]definition. A lot of the trouble here, as you have suggested, is that we have one word ('Jewish') for a spectrum of overlapping and mutually-influencing biological and cultural influences. That makes it easy for one ignorant person to insist that 'it's solely a religion' and another ignorant person to insist that 'it's a race'.

And that's much of what is behind my earlier post about who gets to define this. The thread is still being littered with posts from non-Jewish people who want to define Jewishness and they don't get that privilege.

If I were to make a distinction, it would be the same distinction as would apply to any other ethnic group whose members usually share a religious belief-structure: religion is a faith-based (as opposed to evidence-based) view of the universe, generally learned from one's family and typified by the conviction that one's own religion possesses the sole absolute truth.

Ethnicity is an amalgam of culture, tradition and land or place (the French have a great word terroir that is useful here) with the genetic relatedness that comes from any group breeding largely within its membership over the course of many centuries. There is a biological/genetic (and therefore evidence-based) component to ethnicity and that is entirely untrue of religion.

There is also genetic drift, which is shown in the fact that Sephardim look different from Ashkenazim (and that isn't even considering the Falasha, the Jews of Ethiopia) and have different hereditary diseases. But there is more than enough research on the genetic relatedness of Jews to rule out the 'only a religion' argument. In the same way, modern genetic research has destroyed the 'Jewish race' argument , indeed has exposed the whole concept of 'race' as biological bullshit.

So I guess it's an ethnoreligious group - you're broadly stuck with the 'ethno' bit, but how much 'religious' you mix with your 'ethno' is a matter for individual choice.
Thanks. Sorry to nag, but is there a Jewish equivalent of "non-Arab Muslim" or "non-Muslim Arab"? As in, someone who is ethnically Jewish, but has left the religion of Judaism (or vice-versa). Or are they simply too intertwined to use a statement similar to "An ex-muslim Arab"
 

TheSpillage

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So you're intimating that he's not a hypocritical twat?. The man who doesn’t abide racism in any form? Here he is making absolutely sure that people understand that Jews are not figures of fun.


And here he is showing enormous respect to black people who, apparently, have also run into a spot of bother ‘race wise' in the past.


I think Mr Stephen Fry has it about right!!

"It’s now very common to hear people say, ‘I’m rather offended by that.’ As if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more… than a whine.
‘I find that offensive.’ It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. ‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so f*cking what.

Well throughout this thread I've only really been trying to make the point, that whilst I don't necessarily agree with him, I think the level of hate directed at him is totally disproportionate and quite often just plain wrong (hence why I pointed out to you that he has made frequent references to Chelsea's racist contingent). And that he's just on a crusade to attack Spurs, I find babyish.

His response to the Jason Lee video was:

"In a letter from Gavin Lewis (19 September), in response to my article on the chanting of the word Yid at football matches, he claims my opinion has no worth because, in Fantasy Football, I was made up as the black footballer Jason Lee, and this was clearly racist. So, Robert Downey Jr can have no opinion on racism; Matt Lucas and David Walliams can have no opinion on racism; Kayvan Novak can have no opinion on racism; Harry Enfield can have no opinion on racism; Leigh Francis can have no opinion on racism. That aside, let's say, Dr Lewis, it was deeply, deeply wrong. Perhaps it was. But I believe two of them don't actually make a right."

I think that's probably fair enough although I admit those videos don't make for entirely comfortable viewing.

I genuinely think if you look at his body of work - articles, interviews, campaigns etc. across all the years, it's difficult to point the finger at him and insinuate that he's this 'Spurs hating ****' or any of the other names he's been called. There was a lot of Spurs piss-taking during Fantasy Football but if Michael Mcintyre and Peter Cook had hosted it, we would have expected the same of them. Yes, I'm sure he has been a hypocrite at times in his life - I know I have and I'm sure you have been too. His opinions of what's acceptable have probably changed over the years too. I still think his concern over the use of 'yid' comes from the right place even though I don't agree with him.

I agree with the Stephen Fry quote though!
 

davidmatzdorf

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Thanks. Sorry to nag, but is there a Jewish equivalent of "non-Arab Muslim" or "non-Muslim Arab"? As in, someone who is ethnically Jewish, but has left the religion of Judaism (or vice-versa). Or are they simply too intertwined to use a statement similar to "An ex-muslim Arab"
I don't know any such term - and we could benefit from one.

There are few equivalents of the 'non-Arab Muslim', because Judaism makes it difficult to convert and does not proselytise. But there are plenty of equivalents of the 'non-Muslim Arab', including me.

If we had a word that makes the distinction, some of the confusion on this thread might be avoidable.
 

coopsieyid

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Yeah, I live near Seven Sisters. It's calmed down a bit now, compared to five years or so ago. The PKK are an armed political party fighting for Kurdish rights in Turkey. They have cells all over Europe.
Thanks for the response Amo , it's nice to finally know what PKK actually is. I hope the Kurdish people end up with the rights they deserve (y).. Nice to hear Seven Sisters has calmed down a bit now, not that I'd ever consider moving my family up there from down here in Cornwall. It's a whole different world altogether. All the best to you mate (y)
 

coopsieyid

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Well throughout this thread I've only really been trying to make the point, that whilst I don't necessarily agree with him, I think the level of hate directed at him is totally disproportionate and quite often just plain wrong (hence why I pointed out to you that he has made frequent references to Chelsea's racist contingent). And that he's just on a crusade to attack Spurs, I find babyish.

His response to the Jason Lee video was:

"In a letter from Gavin Lewis (19 September), in response to my article on the chanting of the word Yid at football matches, he claims my opinion has no worth because, in Fantasy Football, I was made up as the black footballer Jason Lee, and this was clearly racist. So, Robert Downey Jr can have no opinion on racism; Matt Lucas and David Walliams can have no opinion on racism; Kayvan Novak can have no opinion on racism; Harry Enfield can have no opinion on racism; Leigh Francis can have no opinion on racism. That aside, let's say, Dr Lewis, it was deeply, deeply wrong. Perhaps it was. But I believe two of them don't actually make a right."

I think that's probably fair enough although I admit those videos don't make for entirely comfortable viewing.

I genuinely think if you look at his body of work - articles, interviews, campaigns etc. across all the years, it's difficult to point the finger at him and insinuate that he's this 'Spurs hating ****' or any of the other names he's been called. There was a lot of Spurs piss-taking during Fantasy Football but if Michael Mcintyre and Peter Cook had hosted it, we would have expected the same of them. Yes, I'm sure he has been a hypocrite at times in his life - I know I have and I'm sure you have been too. His opinions of what's acceptable have probably changed over the years too. I still think his concern over the use of 'yid' comes from the right place even though I don't agree with him.

I agree with the Stephen Fry quote though!
Thank you for the response. My point was absolutely not a dig at you, so i really do apologise if it came across that way? I've got no hatred towards the guy, why would I? I've never met him. It's the blatant hypocrisy that eats at me. 'Casual Racism' was fine when in the interest of 'comedy', but when a group of supporters come together to chant something that originated as a defence mechanism that took a weapon away from our opponents, he gets all high and mighty about it.

It's OK for him to casually 'take the mick' out of Jews, because he's Jewish himself? Does that mean I'm allowed to be racist because I've been a (white) victim of race crime when younger? Oy Vey! :rolleyes:
 

specspurs

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I don't know any such term - and we could benefit from one.

There are few equivalents of the 'non-Arab Muslim', because Judaism makes it difficult to convert and does not proselytise. But there are plenty of equivalents of the 'non-Muslim Arab', including me.

If we had a word that makes the distinction, some of the confusion on this thread might be avoidable.
Thanks. Sorry to nag, but is there a Jewish equivalent of "non-Arab Muslim" or "non-Muslim Arab"? As in, someone who is ethnically Jewish, but has left the religion of Judaism (or vice-versa). Or are they simply too intertwined to use a statement similar to "An ex-muslim Arab"
The nearest word is a pejorative Yiddish word for a person who leaves the Jewish religion and converts to another religion.
This word is "geschmat" which is related to another Yiddish word "schmatte" which means rag,so basically the person who is a non-Jewish Jew is no better than a dishrag.Not really very positive but this person may still be ethnically Jewish. Hope this helps.
I would say,I don't speak Yiddish but my father was fluent.This is where my knowledge comes from,direct from Eastern Europe.
 

TheSpillage

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Thank you for the response. My point was absolutely not a dig at you, so i really do apologise if it came across that way? I've got no hatred towards the guy, why would I? I've never met him. It's the blatant hypocrisy that eats at me. 'Casual Racism' was fine when in the interest of 'comedy', but when a group of supporters come together to chant something that originated as a defence mechanism that took a weapon away from our opponents, he gets all high and mighty about it.

It's OK for him to casually 'take the mick' out of Jews, because he's Jewish himself? Does that mean I'm allowed to be racist because I've been a (white) victim of race crime when younger? Oy Vey! :rolleyes:
No offence taken! Likewise to yourself! I do believe he's wrong about our use of 'yid' too, so there's something to agree on, but I can't quite share people's annoyance at him...
 

Acid

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That's a little condescending and patronising to say "what you believe is a fact." For your info it is actually a scientific fact and proven that Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religion.
Cool; it wasn't meant to be condescending so apologies.

And I still disagree lol, for various reasons both listed in this post and not.

I've not seen any scientific claims to be absolute proof (yet) so please post it; I've seen ideas/theories put forth but never something that has said it was an absolute fact though I can see the argument for it. It could argued their are multiple "ethnicity's" within Judaism etc.

But even then the great thing about science is - sometimes, maybe even often given enough time - fact isn't always set in stone and as we learn more that fact/information can evolve to being quiet the opposite.
 
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Mustard

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It's a name that predates the German National Socialist Party by many centuries. You're on the edge of being a bit out of order here, but I'm going to put it down to ignorance and a reluctance to use Google before you start expostulating.

Broadly speaking, the 'Ashkenazim' or 'Ashkenazi Jews' are the Jews of Northern and Eastern Europe, which includes my ancestors, who lived in what we would now call Lithuania, Belarus and Northern Germany - and my surname is the name of a village which is now in Poland.

The 'Sephardim' or 'Sephardic Jews' are the Jews of Southern Europe and North Africa.

They have distinct ethnic traits, distinct genetic differences from each other and from non-Jewish people in their [former] countries and differing artistic and cultural heritages.

Not knowing the meaning of 'Ashkenazi' seriously undermines your contention that being Jewish is solely a matter of religion and isn't a 'race', because it shows that your views were not formed in the presence of knowledge: you don't know much about Jews, Judaism and history at all.


I'm not being out of order or ignorant. Disinterested in Jewish history/religion maybe.

The fact that Nazi comes up in one of your tribes names is quite a surprise n'est pas? Even specspurs conceded that. It certainly made me go whaaaat!

I'm quite used to your self righteous and condescending tone so I'm not gonna bite on your last paragraph. Except to say the Jews are not a race. You may believe that as strongly as the orthodox members of your community believe in Yaweh but unfortunately for you it doesn't make it fact.

A little factoid about me is that my great, great grandad came from Lithuania. So maybe I'm a Ashkenazi too.
 

benski

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I think if we can take anything from this thread it's that Jews come across as having a great sense of humour and dont take themselves too seriously.
 

JimmyG2

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I think that 'I'm not that Jewish' is an attempt at self deprecating funny reply.
I have not seen the actual broadcast which may have made things cleare

I feel some sympathy for him being myself of Lithuanian Jewish descent
in a society that has casual and often unthinking anti Semitic and racist attitudes
which are often more difficult to deal with in everyday life than overt racism.

I disagree with him about Yids and Yiddos.
If you take their knives from them they can't stab you with them.

Supporting Chelsea given his high profile take up of the Yiddo controversy must also cause him problems
though I would guess that they have as high a proportion of Jewish supporters as we and indeed Arsenal have.
 

davidmatzdorf

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I'm not being out of order or ignorant. Disinterested in Jewish history/religion maybe.
I think you meant 'uninterested'. Not the same thing. Look it up.

The fact that Nazi comes up in one of your tribes names is quite a surprise n'est pas? Even specspurs conceded that. It certainly made me go whaaaat!
What is much more interesting is that none of the Jews here have ever noticed it until you did. It's a word that - as I already said - predates Nazism and is irrelevant to it. It's a part of our heritage and is a familiar term with no negative implications. So I think what's weird is you thinking that 'Ashkenazi' has something to do with 'Nazi'.

...Except to say the Jews are not a race. You may believe that as strongly as the orthodox members of your community believe in Yaweh but unfortunately for you it doesn't make it fact.
You haven't actually been reading my posts, have you? I've replied directly to you on two occasions with a clear statement that, in my view, Jews are not a 'race'. The whole notion of 'race' is bollocks, so Jews are not a 'race'. Anyone who says that Jews are a 'race' is being racist. Are we clear now? We agree about this, but probably for different reasons. Jews are an ethnic group many of whom share a religion.

A little factoid about me is that my great, great grandad came from Lithuania. So maybe I'm a Ashkenazi too.
There were plenty of Christians in Lithuania, too. Such as the ones who drove my maternal grandfather out and forced his family to emigrate to New York in 1895.

And that isn't a 'factoid'. It's either a 'fact' or you're fibbing.[/QUOTE]
 

davidmatzdorf

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I think if we can take anything from this thread it's that Jews come across as having a great sense of humour and dont take themselves too seriously.
When people accuse black people of 'not having a sense of humour' about racism, no one thinks it's a witty comment these days.
 

Mustard

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I think you meant 'uninterested'. Not the same thing. Look it up.



What is much more interesting is that none of the Jews here have ever noticed it until you did. It's a word that - as I already said - predates Nazism and is irrelevant to it. It's a part of our heritage and is a familiar term with no negative implications. So I think what's weird is you thinking that 'Ashkenazi' has something to do with 'Nazi'.



You haven't actually been reading my posts, have you? I've replied directly to you on two occasions with a clear statement that, in my view, Jews are not a 'race'. The whole notion of 'race' is bollocks, so Jews are not a 'race'. Anyone who says that Jews are a 'race' is being racist. Are we clear now? We agree about this, but probably for different reasons. Jews are an ethnic group many of whom share a religion.



There were plenty of Christians in Lithuania, too. Such as the ones who drove my maternal grandfather out and forced his family to emigrate to New York in 1895.

And that isn't a 'factoid'. It's either a 'fact' or you're fibbing.
[/QUOTE]


Glad you're with me on the race thing finally.

Jews arn't a race. It's a belief system.

Although reading you're previous posts and others. In regard to this. it seems the best analogy I can think of comes with Harry Potter.

Muggles. Half bloods. Pure bloods.


Honestly. The nazi thing was purely something I had never seen before. Ignorance/uninterested still stands.

It just blew me away. It's just words. But bloody hell. Some words.

I'm sure you know but just for clarification, how many Jews do you accept as Jews are walking the Earth today?
 

boris

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Jewish schmuish -- Aryan pygmies -- Inuit potato farmers -- what does it matter? It's like a bunch of chimpanzees debating who came from which forest and their different traditions for hunting Colobus monkeys. Smug otherness. Get it together.
 

TheSpillage

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So...yeah. In conclusion, David Baddiel? Can't work out if he's a real jew or not after all that. He hasn't got Nazi in his name but he won't eat pork, or something... I forget exactly. Spurs community: sorting shit out.
 
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