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Spurs hater David Baddeil in "not that Jewish" shocker!!!!

TheSpillage

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2013
892
2,543
The best any of us can do is to say that it's 'a mix of ethnicity, heredity, culture, tradition, place, and in many cases religion'. That's what several of us have written on this thread, in remarkably similar language, but we're still being challenged to 'define' ourselves. How that mixture of ethnicity, religion, etc., is apportioned in each person is diverse and I can't see why people won't just accept that and settle for a broad, inclusive definition

Everyone's identity is a mix of ethnicity, heredity, culture, tradition, place and religion. But that mixture is so diverse, as you say, that the spectrum that potentially includes a Jew, or a black person, or a Dutchman, or LGBTQI people is so large that almost anyone who chooses to place themselves there could do so. People ask you to define Jewishness, because they feel it's almost undefinable and I think maybe it is - it's a subjective take on all the many factors you list above. It is a really hard thing for me to get my head around your use of the word 'us' and 'ourselves' and 'we'. I can't place myself amongst an 'us' - i.e. me and my fellow jews. Or, me and my fellow black people. Maybe that's because I don't belong to a defined group in the same way that you do: I'm half-British, half-Dutch at my parents level, I've a Spanish Jewish grandmother going back one more and an Italian baker one further. My ancestors weren't persecuted as a whole but I'm sure they experienced their fair share of shit, as have I.

Most of us are that severely bastardised. My cultural influences are mostly British, partly Dutch and a little American (born in 1980: MTV, right?). I would be offended if someone I didn't know called me a **** but if they called me a half Dutch **** I'm not sure I'd be able to care. I am aware that Jews have suffered at the hands way more than the half-Dutch btw, so even though that sounded facetious, it was not supposed to.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say here :) Other than don't be offended by what people say about your people's place on the spectrum of ethnicity, heredity, culture, tradition, place and religion. Be offended by what they say about you. I know that wouldn't have worked in Europe in 1939 (for the record my Dutch Grandfather was killed by the Nazis for hiding from the Nazis even though he wasn't Jewish, it annoys me that I'm even feeling the need to say that. Why?) but this isn't then. I'm aware that people are still abused terribly for being jewish.

The reason I think David Baddiel is wrong about the word 'yid' is that Spurs fans singing it from the rooftops shits all over the the word: it says "fuck you" to all those idiots who think they want to slag off Jews even though they don't really know what Jews are. But it also says: "we're not really Jews so go fuck yourselves even though we don't know really know what Jews are". It detracts from the concept of race, ethnicity, religion etc... It epitomises the insanity of 'us' in general

But, anyway...happy new year. I'm quite pissed.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
25,914
16,413
Everyone's identity is a mix of ethnicity, heredity, culture, tradition, place and religion. But that mixture is so diverse, as you say, that the spectrum that potentially includes a Jew, or a black person, or a Dutchman, or LGBTQI people is so large that almost anyone who chooses to place themselves there could do so. People ask you to define Jewishness, because they feel it's almost undefinable and I think maybe it is - it's a subjective take on all the many factors you list above. It is a really hard thing for me to get my head around your use of the word 'us' and 'ourselves' and 'we'. I can't place myself amongst an 'us' - i.e. me and my fellow jews. Or, me and my fellow black people. Maybe that's because I don't belong to a defined group in the same way that you do: I'm half-British, half-Dutch at my parents level, I've a Spanish Jewish grandmother going back one more and an Italian baker one further. My ancestors weren't persecuted as a whole but I'm sure they experienced their fair share of shit, as have I.

Most of us are that severely bastardised. My cultural influences are mostly British, partly Dutch and a little American (born in 1980: MTV, right?). I would be offended if someone I didn't know called me a **** but if they called me a half Dutch **** I'm not sure I'd be able to care. I am aware that Jews have suffered at the hands way more than the half-Dutch btw, so even though that sounded facetious, it was not supposed to.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm trying to say here :) Other than don't be offended by what people say about your people's place on the spectrum of ethnicity, heredity, culture, tradition, place and religion. Be offended by what they say about you. I know that wouldn't have worked in Europe in 1939 (for the record my Dutch Grandfather was killed by the Nazis for hiding from the Nazis even though he wasn't Jewish, it annoys me that I'm even feeling the need to say that. Why?) but this isn't then. I'm aware that people are still abused terribly for being jewish.

The reason I think David Baddiel is wrong about the word 'yid' is that Spurs fans singing it from the rooftops shits all over the the word: it says "fuck you" to all those idiots who think they want to slag off Jews even though they don't really know what Jews are. But it also says: "we're not really Jews so go fuck yourselves even though we don't know really know what Jews are". It detracts from the concept of race, ethnicity, religion etc... It epitomises the insanity of 'us' in general

But, anyway...happy new year. I'm quite pissed.
WTF dude!
I can't even write that coherently when I'm sober, let alone when I'm pissed.
 

rich75

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2004
7,591
3,215
You are the one choosing to define it as a religious edict and nothing else.

My point was that whether or not it originated by virtue of religion, the fact is that the vast majority of Jews share a genetic trait and are therefore of a shared ethnicity.

Do you dispute that?
No, it's defined on a religious basis by the people who claim to be a part of it.

I didn't dispute your question, in fact I agreed it was probably the case. However if the entrance requirements to said "race" are defined by those claiming membership on a religious basis, then there is a clear misunderstanding of what a "race" is. It means that there are people who share ethnicity that are not deemed part of said race. It also undoubtedly means that there are members happily identifying as racially Jewish who would never be defined as racially Jewish on any other grounds than religious ones.
 

Lenn0n

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2011
244
342
While we're talking about things that make people uncomfortable, this is a word that's never sat well with me. It just lumps the rest of the human race together, with the one thing they have in common being that they are not Jewish. It's not as bad as other faiths calling people infidels or non believers but it's along the same lines and I really wish people wouldn't use it. This is coming from someone who thinks all organised religion is a load of nonsense so that probably colours my thinking somewhat.

Gentiles, Jews, Infidels, Yids, Brits, Frogs, Yanks, Chink,Pakki, Scotts, Black, Christians, Jap, Ruskkie, Atheist, Fundamentalist, (and one or two I don't dare put in print) - are all words that describe groups of people. Anyone care to put these in order as to the most offensive first? Where would 'Yid' come? David Wheelan got fined for use the word 'Chink' - where does this come on the list? How would it relate to 'Yank'? Some words I guess are beyond use, but Its all getting very difficult. Is the 'right to be offended' too dominant? Do we focus on the 'label' rather than the intent too much? Spurs fans using the word 'Yid' i don't (I) believe ever intend to offend Jewish people.
 

Mullers

Unknown member
Jan 4, 2006
25,914
16,413
Gentiles, Jews, Infidels, Yids, Brits, Frogs, Yanks, Chink,Pakki, Scotts, Black, Christians, Jap, Ruskkie, Atheist, Fundamentalist, (and one or two I don't dare put in print) - are all words that describe groups of people. Anyone care to put these in order as to the most offensive first? Where would 'Yid' come? David Wheelan got fined for use the word 'Chink' - where does this come on the list? How would it relate to 'Yank'? Some words I guess are beyond use, but Its all getting very difficult. Is the 'right to be offended' too dominant? Do we focus on the 'label' rather than the intent too much? Spurs fans using the word 'Yid' i don't (I) believe ever intend to offend Jewish people.
Not really that difficult is it? From that list people by now should have a pretty good idea of what can be said and what shouldn't.
 

CornerPinDreamer

up in the cheap seats
Aug 20, 2013
3,716
8,088
e4961744225ec8c17cde2309c410228eddd5696a31f67bdd81563308e5e79fcc.jpg
 
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