*** SPURS v BIRMINGHAM *** Official Match Thread

[Juande_Ramos]

I know that Spurs have always tried to play atrattive football (I ma not a youngster by the way).
On the issue of strenght in depth of la liga and the Premiership I think that in la liga any team can pass the ball well, and all or almost all are tactically good. Spain has had the influence of Dutch football and Intalian football during more than a decade, with Johan Cruyff, Van Gaal, Capello, Rainieri, and now there is a distinct Spanish style of play that has accomodated the best of both styles. The top English teams have great players and great managers, but after that the gap is much wider than in the Spanish league, although recently it is starting to appear a second group of teams with a good level, but still there is too much dross in the Premiership IMO.
I don't think Chelsea, United or Arsenal would ever get more than 90 points like they if they were playing in the Spanish League. The Barcelona team of 3 seasons ago got 84 and they certainly weren't worse than any of those three.

 

[joey55]

Far fitter than under Jol, where players could not even perform basic stretching exercises.
BTW, I have my own opinion on this issue. If you don't agree with it, fine, but stop telling me that I just pick other people's opinions and don;t have an educated opinion. As I've said before, time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

If you seriously believe that is true then you are utterly deluded.

 

[leetotty]

Sevilla were a busier team

Thats nothing to do with fitness.

Your seeing what you want to see, so it can fit in with your perceived ideas.

An example...Chris Waddle was a languid player, who looked tired after making a run and looked dopey. Never seemed busy and full of energy...

I would find it hard for anyone to disagree wholeheartedly with that...

Yet when it came to the cross country running and stamina tests, Chris Waddle was the best performing player at the club.

Seville in the first 20 mins at the lane last season ripped us to shreds, not becuase they were fitter, but because they played superb attacking approach play. There movement was excellent and confidence to attack was for our defence nearly unplayable.

On paper we are a good side, but we are struggling with confidence, Berbatov is an example of that.

The problem this season is that teams play with unbound confidence against us, becuase we give teams a chance, we don't have a defense that just cuts things out and we don't stop the opposition from playing.

McCleish said that he always felt they had a chance and that is a big difference with us and the top 4. When the top teams go a goal up, you rarely have a chance.

Also, being really picky, attacking wise we don't pass the ball enough sometimes to stretch teams and I would like us to link up more as a team and play more 5-10 yeards passes.

But we are in trouble, as fans we need to realise this, we have won 2 games this season, both are 19/20th in the league. We need to get to 40 points, otherwise we really could be perfroming a remake of 1977...The reasons why we are in this mess, is just a snowball from a bad start...

 

[Juande_Ramos]

If you seriously believe that is true then you are utterly deluded.

There is a picture on this site. Professional athletes struggling to do a basic stretching exercise. When Rafael Benitez arrived at Liverpool a certain Dany Murphy said that he was hurting in some muscles that he didn't know he had in his body. As in every way of life there are better professionals than others, thing that you don't seem to get going by your previous posts.
I am not going to call you deluded though.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

Thats nothing to do with fitness.

Your seeing what you want to see, so it can fit in with your perceived ideas.

An example...Chris Waddle was a languid player, who looked tired after making a run and looked dopey. Never seemed busy and full of energy...

I would find it hard for anyone to disagree wholeheartedly with that...

Yet when it came to the cross country running and stamina tests, Chris Waddle was the best performing player at the club.

Seville in the first 20 mins at the lane last season ripped us to shreds, not becuase they were fitter, but because they played superb attacking approach play. There movement was excellent and confidence to attack was for our defence nearly unplayable.

On paper we are a good side, but we are struggling with confidence, Berbatov is an example of that.

The problem this season is that teams play with unbound confidence against us, becuase we give teams a chance, we don't have a defense that just cuts things out and we don't stop the opposition from playing.

McCleish said that he always felt they had a chance and that is a big difference with us and the top 4. When the top teams go a goal up, you rarely have a chance.

Also, being really picky, attacking wise we don't pass the ball enough sometimes to stretch teams and I would like us to link up more as a team and play more 5-10 yeards passes.

But we are in trouble, as fans we need to realise this, we have won 2 games this season, both are 19/20th in the league. We need to get to 40 points, otherwise we really could be perfroming a remake of 1977...The reasons why we are in this mess, is just a snowball from a bad start...

I am not basing my opinion on 20 or 40 minutes of play. I base my opinion on what I have seen of Sevilla and Spurs under Jol.
I predict that Spurs are going to be a better and fitter team under Ramos. It seems that some here don't agree with my view and certainly rate Jol higher than I do. But both of us can't be right. The future will tell.

 

[yanno]

I predict that Spurs are going to be a better and fitter team under Ramos. It seems that some here don't agree with my view and certainly rate Jol higher than I do. But both of us can't be right. The future will tell.

Indeed, the future will tell. I very much hope we will become a better and fitter team under Ramos.

Juande_Ramos - I respect your views, as I respect the views of Joey & SS57. I'm excited about what Ramos is trying to do with Spurs. However, I think Ramos' medium term plans are very similar to those of Benitez, and I don't think Rafa has been an unqualified success at Liverpool. I'm sure he's brought in a lot of his training, fitness and preparation methods to Liverpool, and these may have been a partial improvement on those he inherited. Ramos will do the same at Spurs. But it's on the field that I have a few concerns about Benitez.

Benitez seems determined to try to play his successful Valencia system at Liverpool. That means a high back line, two stong holding CMs, flair and directness down the flanks, and a fast striker and a linking striker. So, he's accumulated a whole host of CMs - Xabi Alonso, Sissoko, Mascherano, Lucas - and seems highly reluctant to play a box-to-box CM like Steven Gerrard in the middle. So, Gerrard has played out wide and has not been fully integrated into the team.

Benitez has also signed quite a few players from Spain with good technique but who have failed to adapt to EPL football - eg Josemi, Mark Gonzalez, Fabio Aurelio, Nunez. I think neutral observers would say that throughout Benitez's tenure at Anfield, Arsenal and Man Utd have played more attactive football than Liverpool.

Now, this is relevant because I think Ramos will try to introduce a fairly similar system at Spurs: 4-4-2 with strength and pressing in the middle, pace and directness down the flanks and a Kanoute-Fabiano style partnership up front, which probably means Berba or Keano as the deeper striker and Bent or Defoe stretching the opposition defence. It will work in Europe, and should work in the EPL - if we can recruit top players at CB, CM and LM. But the niggling doubt is that four years in, I think Benitez's Liverpool are being largely kept in the EPL title race by an outstanding striker named Fernando Torres...

 

[41john]

Seville would have won La Liga if it had been stopped after 75 mins last season. Before Ramos left this season they had conceded more than they scored in the last 15 mins. Does that sound like a fit team to you?

And how many have we let in late this season, a lot more than we have scored, that is for sure!

Im not saying it is down to fitness, but possibly mental fitness, the players just switch off and make silly mistake or dont do things they should be doing during the closing stages of the game.

Also look at yesterday and against west ham, both games we dominated the play, but during the late stages that didnt happen, the opposition came at us, and sometimes that cost us.

This season thats happened against Birmingham, Blackburn, Arsenal, Fulham, and sunderland. I didnt mention some of the other late goals like liverpool cos i believe we didnt deserve to be ahead in that one anyway.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

Indeed, the future will tell. I very much hope we will become a better and fitter team under Ramos.

Juande_Ramos - I respect your views, as I respect the views of Joey & SS57. I'm excited about what Ramos is trying to do with Spurs. However, I think Ramos' medium term plans are very similar to those of Benitez, and I don't think Rafa has been an unqualified success at Liverpool. I'm sure he's brought in a lot of his training, fitness and preparation methods to Liverpool, and these may have been a partial improvement on those he inherited. Ramos will do the same at Spurs. But it's on the field that I have a few concerns about Benitez.

Benitez seems determined to try to play his successful Valencia system at Liverpool. That means a high back line, two stong holding CMs, flair and directness down the flanks, and a fast striker and a linking striker. So, he's accumulated a whole host of CMs - Xabi Alonso, Sissoko, Mascherano, Lucas - and seems highly reluctant to play a box-to-box CM like Steven Gerrard in the middle. So, Gerrard has played out wide and has not been fully integrated into the team.

Benitez has also signed quite a few players from Spain with good technique but who have failed to adapt to EPL football - eg Josemi, Mark Gonzalez, Fabio Aurelio, Nunez. I think neutral observers would say that throughout Benitez's tenure at Anfield, Arsenal and Man Utd have played more attactive football than Liverpool.

Now, this is relevant because I think Ramos will try to introduce a fairly similar system at Spurs: 4-4-2 with strength and pressing in the middle, pace and directness down the flanks and a Kanoute-Fabiano style partnership up front, which probably means Berba or Keano as the deeper striker and Bent or Defoe stretching the opposition defence. It will work in Europe, and should work in the EPL - if we can recruit top players at CB, CM and LM. But the niggling doubt is that four years in, I think Benitez's Liverpool are being largely kept in the EPL title race by an outstanding striker named Fernando Torres...

Benitez is a top coach. Managing to win the CH L with the squad he inherited is a testament to his abilities, and last year he managed to get in the final with a team not so good either. The problems for Benitez rather than his tactics have been that for his rotation policy to work he needed a very good squad, and he didn't even inherited a very good first 11. Add to that that he signed a few duds in the process and there is the reason they have never challenged, unlike this season when they are goint to be up there until the end, and I wouldn't be surprised if they win it.
The players you mention were all cheap signings or came on a free. I think his worst signings by far are Kuyt and Sissoko, who are very limited players (I laugh when you criticise Zokora passing ability when I compare it to Sissoko's) and they have played far too often.

 

[yanno]

Benitez is a top coach. Managing to win the CH L with the squad he inherited is a testament to his abilities, and last year he managed to get in the final with a team not so good either. The problems for Benitez rather than his tactics have been that for his rotation policy to work he needed a very good squad, and he didn't even inherited a very good first 11. Add to that that he signed a few duds in the process and there is the reason they have never challenged, unlike this season when they are goint to be up there until the end, and I wouldn't be surprised if they win it.
The players you mention were all cheap signings or came on a free. I think his worst signings by far are Kuyt and Sissoko, who are very limited players (I laugh when you criticise Zokora passing ability when I compare it to Sissoko's) and they have played far too often.

It's true that most of the players who failed - Josemi, Fabio Aurelio, Nunez, Mark Gonzalez - were relatively cheap signings.

I'm interested you don't rate Sissoko. Benitez signed Sissoko for Valencia, and then from Valencia to Liverpool, so Rafa surely should have known all about the player's strengths and weaknesses? I don't see much difference between Sissoko's and Zokora's passing ability - both average to poor - but Sissoko does seem to me to be far more effective in closing down the opposition and tackling in a CM position. Zokora only seems to be able to defend when he's dropped back to a spare CB position.

Kuyt is an interesting case. He was Jol's big target before he chose Liverpool, and nearly all the SC board wanted him for us. Jol described him as a 20/20 (20 goals and 20 assists per season) player, and that judgement now looks optimistic. But Voronin looks a very similar player, only worse than Kuyt, so I have to say I'm not that impressed with Benitez's judgement of players.

Benitez has been backed with a lot of money by the Liverpool board, but only Torres, Reina and Xabi Alonso could be said to be unqualified successes. £12 million for Babel currently looks very expensive. Benitez still hasn't sorted out his flanks, he doesn't know who to play with Torres, he doesn't seem to know his best CM partnership. Benitez is a good coach, and a better coach than Houllier, but he still hasn't cracked it at Liverpool.

 

[Bobishism]

I'm pretty sure Benitez worked under a DOF system at Valencia. At Liverpool he's under no such system, right?

 

[joey55]

I'm pretty sure Benitez worked under a DOF system at Valencia. At Liverpool he's under no such system, right?

Jesus Garcia Pitarch

 

[Juande_Ramos]

I agree with you though that signing good players is not Benitez biggest strenghth, although He has signed a few more good players.
Zokora is Zinedine Zidane compared to Sissoko, a player whose only attribute is that he runs a lot but is probably the worst footballer in the Premiership, and there a few very poor footballers in this league.

 

[yanno]

Zokora is Zinedine Zidane compared to Sissoko, a player whose only attribute is that he runs a lot but is probably the worst footballer in the Premiership, and there a few very poor footballers in this league.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Good crack - made me laugh! But, to accurately describe the pits of the Premier League, you really really need to see Titus Bramble play...

 

[nightgoat]

Last season the top 4 teams in England were better than in Spain but after the gap was massive with the rest. In the Spanish league the difference is not that big, and teams who qualify for the UEFA Cup or even the CH L the next year may be struggling at the wrong end of the table.

Erm... :think:

 

[Juande_Ramos]

Erm... :think:

Betis, Mallorca, Celta. There are plenty of examples. Check the tables in the Spanish league of the last years and you will see teams getting in the CH L or UEFA Cup one season and struggling to stay up the following season. Betis were in relegation positions when they beat Chelsea in the Champions League. Celta got relegeted after qualifying for the CH L.
Alternatively check the number of points obtained by the top, middle of the table and bottom sides. You'll see the points spread much more evenly than in the English League.

 

[joey55]

Betis, Mallorca, Celta. There are plenty of examples. Check the tables in the Spanish league of the last years and you will see teams getting in the CH L or UEFA Cup one season and struggling to stay up the following season. Betis were in relegation positions when they beat Chelsea in the Champions League. Celta got relegeted after qualifying for the CH L.
Alternatively check the number of points obtained by the top, middle of the table and bottom sides. You'll see the points spread much more evenly than in the English League.

He's not doubting what you say about La Liga, but making a more obvious point, much closer to home.

 

[Juande_Ramos]

He's not doubting what you say about La Liga, but making a more obvious point, much closer to home.

Ah, ok. The Spurs position is a travesty. It reminds me of Atletico Madrid a few years back when they signed Rainieri trying to win the league and had a top squad with fantastic players...and got relegated. Hopefully that won't happen with Spurs. Seriously, there is too much dross in the Premiership to contemplete that possibility, and I am confident Ramos will turn the tables :wink:

 

[joey55]

Ah, ok. The Spurs position is a travesty. It reminds me of Atletico Madrid a few years back when they signed Rainieri trying to win the league and had a top squad with fantastic players...and got relegated. Hopefully that won't happen with Spurs. Seriously, there is too much dross in the Premiership to contemplete that possibility, and I am confident Ramos will turn the tables :wink:

I very confidennt we'll finish in the top half. There is very liitle chance we'll be involved in any relegation battle. I just hope our fans don't see a resurgence into the top half as a sign that our problems are behind us.

 

[yanno]

Juande_Ramos - I'm not sure if you're a Sevilla fan or just a Ramos fan! :wink:

But do you think Ramos will approach Sevilla in January to try to sign players to solve some of Spurs' problems - eg Poulsen for CM, Escude for LCB? Or do you think Sevilla's President will tell us where to get off?

PS if you are a Sevilla fan, I apologize for suggesting we might like to steal some of your players..

 

[Juande_Ramos]

Juande_Ramos - I'm not sure if you're a Sevilla fan or just a Ramos fan! :wink:

But do you think Ramos will approach Sevilla in January to try to sign players to solve some of Spurs' problems - eg Poulsen for CM, Escude for LCB? Or do you think Sevilla's President will tell us where to get off?

PS if you are a Sevilla fan, I apologize for suggesting we might like to steal some of your players..

I am a Ramos fan. if I was a Sevilla fan I would be too pissed off to be posting here :razz:.
I don't think he'll go for any Sevilla players. Firstly because he didn't leave in good terms, and secondly because Del Nido, Sevilla chairman, would rip Spurs off. Del Nido success has been built on two premises: buying very cheap and well, and selling very expensively.
If there is a cheap buyout clause in Poulsen's contract like some suggest then Ramos may go for him but otherwise he'll get his players from other teams. I wouldn't be surprised if he goes for some la liga players first, the ones he knows best, although he watches a lot of international football and may have seen a player from somewhere else who could improve the team. Kanoute's signing was his for instance.