Spurs v Wimbledon Match Thread

[IGSpur]

This is a ridiculous statement when we've only recently incorporated Winks and Walker-Peters into the first team squad. Had he not developed some issues arising from immaturity, I reckon Edwards would also be there.

KWP has started 2/3 games this year, I don't see him as a first team squad player, I appreciate that is subjective however, but his lack of use suggests he hasn't been incorporate into the fold properly. WRT Edwards I'll see it before I believe it.

The academy continues to produce fine talent, as it started to do under AVB and Sherwood, after 8-10 years of steady improvement and investment,and Pochettino is equally keen to make use of those players as our previous managers.

The last sentence again is subjective. Poch's record at bringing through academy players is as bad or worse than his comparable rivals. We all agree that the PL has a clear problem bringing through academy players especially considering the recent summer of success, so if his record is no better doesn't that suggest he is also part of the problem? Also were it not for Redknapp's gung-ho or dismissive approach to the EL or Sherwood's bias youth agenda, I doubt we would have seen even half of the players that came through in that era play for our first team.

He did so at Southampton (their academy was one of his reasons for moving there) and he has continued to do so with Tottenham. (our academy was one of his reasons for moving here).

He does it at a different pace for each player, depending on when he feels each player is ready. Not when you feel each player is ready.

I disagree he has continued to do it here, with only one player having gone from the academy into the first team in 4 years.

I might be repeating myself because I can't remember if I posted it or not but last season Pochettino gave five academy players their first team debuts in various comps and has given nine academy players their first team debuts since being at the club.

That doesn't sound quite right, but I made a post in the Edwards thread which was quite long comparing debuts and game time etc. between the Top 6 clubs since Poch joined and his record is as poor as the rest.

To be fair, the quality of the first team wasn't there like it is today hence it was a lot easier to bring youngster's in !

A fair point, though Arsenal, Liverpool, United, even Chelsea and City this season have arguably done as much as we have this season. Also Bayern and Barca had no problems introducing academy playesr and they were under the pressure of having to win titles. There always seems to be a reason, whether a team is battling relegation, having to qualify for CL or trying to win the league as a reason not to give an academy player a chance.

What about KWP?, he played yesterday.
How many do you really expect him to bring through per season?

I'm overjoyed that KWP got a chance yesterday. I don't think it's unrealistic to aim for one player per season, to be given some game time. Between 10/11 -13/14 so 4 years, we managed to bring through, integrate, keep or sell on Caulker, Livermore, Carroll, Kane, Rose, Townsend and Bentaleb. We also improved as a club. They helped make us a load of money, some of them were part of the revolution that saved Poch in his first season and some of them are still with us and arguably the top 5 players in their respective position in the world. That's 7 players in 4 seasons compared to 1 player in 4 seasons. That shows the academy working as it should, but I don't feel it has been used as well especially when I know that the players we are producing now are better than the previous ones. You can say that is subjective, but loads of people who have watched both generations have said the same and we get nothing from making false claims. Also our international results speak for themselves. I know we are better as a first team but we're also better due to the affect of the academy, so it frustrates me when we don't use it more.

As I say over and over again, there isn't a manager I'd rather have coaching young players once they are in the team, but I think it's fair to say Poch's record is know better than the other managers and when we know the PL suck compared to other countries at developing academy players especially when ours are better I believe it's fair to critique him or want more. I believe it will only benefit us. No I'm not a coach and Poch has all these badges etc. but he can be wrong about some things he has as admitted as much before, so there's a chance he could be wrong here no?

I didn't mean to take this out of the academy thread, I was drawn in naively, by a comment on the teamsheet and it's gone on, I've made many posts on this topic, so I if I appear to be dismissive it's because I'm trying to be brief after essentially making repeated posts/arguments in the other thread.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

This kind of post, this style of "thinking", just makes steam come out of my ears. It's a post-truth post: the malignant 21c. use of the concept of "opinion" again, as in "my opinion is just as good as anyone's", even when there are no facts attached to your "opinions", only confirmation bias and self-aggrandising delusion.

KWP has started 2/3 games this year, I don't see him as a first team squad player, I appreciate that is subjective however, but his lack of use suggests he hasn't been incorporate into the fold properly. WRT Edwards I'll see it before I believe it.

No one gives a fuck whether you "see him as a first team player". He is a first team player. He is a member of the first team squad.

Here is the proof positive that demonstrates that your"opinion" is demonstrably wrong. That listing makes him a first team player, even if he plays 10 minutes over the whole season. The first team isn't a state of mind, nor is it a matter of "opinion". It is a list of names and Kyle Walker-Peters is on it. That is a demonstrable and correct fact, whatever "opinion" you happen to hold.

The last sentence again is subjective. Poch's record at bringing through academy players is as bad or worse than his comparable rivals. We all agree that the PL has a clear problem bringing through academy players especially considering the recent summer of success, so if his record is no better doesn't that suggest he is also part of the problem? Also were it not for Redknapp's gung-ho or dismissive approach to the EL or Sherwood's bias youth agenda, I doubt we would have seen even half of the players that came through in that era play for our first team.

No, it is not subjective. That's another one of your random "opinions", un-backed with fact. AVB brought through relatively few academy players. Sherwood brought through many, in part because he had already worked with them. Pochettino has done likewise. His reputation for preferring to work with youth precedes him, all the way from Southampton.

And that should be "biased", not "bias". No one seems to understand the past tense anymore when it comes to this word. One has a bias. One is biased.

I disagree he has continued to do it here, with only one player having gone from the academy into the first team in 4 years.

That's another ludicrous falsehood masquerading, through the slippery medium of 21c. "opinion", as truth. Here a non-comprehensive the list of five currently listed first team players from our academy: Harry Kane, Harry Winks, Kyle Walker-Peters, Josh Onomah (prior to his loan), Cameron Carter-Vickers (ditto). There may be others. These players are all currently included in the first team squad. That makes them first team players, incontrovertibly and without any further debate. That is accurate. Your supposition is false. Your personal spin does not decide who is in the first team. The club decides that.

Your whole post is the Trump, Farage and Johnson school of bullshit. First you decide what your "opinion" is, then you ignore, adapt and alter facts as necessary and repeat your "opinion" as if it is just as valid as fact, until no one can tell the difference anymore. I need a fucking glass of wine after reading that farrago of garbage.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

That doesn't sound quite right, but I made a post in the Edwards thread which was quite long comparing debuts and game time etc. between the Top 6 clubs since Poch joined and his record is as poor as the rest.

The number is accurate, I'm confident of that. In fact I left off KWP, he possibly qualifies which would make the number 10 if that's so. You can add four more who made debuts in first team friendlies if you like too.

I've no idea as to number of minutes played but at least they are getting a sniff and the door is open and one has gone on to play for England. I'm not sure how many more is required to satisfy when you consider pressure to get results, balancing established first team players need for game time and all the other stuff entailed.

 

[IGSpur]

This kind of post, this style of "thinking", just makes steam come out of my ears. It's a post-truth post: the malignant 21c. use of the concept of "opinion" again, as in "my opinion is just as good as anyone's", even when there are no facts attached to your "opinions", only confirmation bias and self-aggrandising delusion.



No one gives a fuck whether you "see him as a first team player". He is a first team player. He is a member of the first team squad.

Here is the proof positive that demonstrates that your"opinion" is demonstrably wrong. That listing makes him a first team player, even if he plays 10 minutes over the whole season. The first team isn't a state of mind, nor is it a matter of "opinion". It is a list of names and Kyle Walker-Peters is on it. That is a demonstrable and correct fact, whatever "opinion" you happen to hold.



No, it is not subjective. That's another one of your random "opinions", un-backed with fact. AVB brought through relatively few academy players. Sherwood brought through many, in part because he had already worked with them. Pochettino has done likewise. His reputation for preferring to work with youth precedes him, all the way from Southampton.

And that should be "biased", not "bias". No one seems to understand the past tense anymore when it comes to this word. One has a bias. One is biased.



That's another ludicrous falsehood masquerading, through the slippery medium of 21c. "opinion", as truth. Here a non-comprehensive the list of five currently listed first team players from our academy: Harry Kane, Harry Winks, Kyle Walker-Peters, Josh Onomah (prior to his loan), Cameron Carter-Vickers (ditto). There may be others. These players are all currently included in the first team squad. That makes them first team players, incontrovertibly and without any further debate. That is accurate. Your supposition is false. Your personal spin does not decide who is in the first team. The club decides that.

Your whole post is the Trump, Farage and Johnson school of bullshit. First you decide what your "opinion" is, then you ignore, adapt and alter facts as necessary and repeat your "opinion" as if it is just as valid as fact, until no one can tell the difference anymore. I need a fucking glass of wine after reading that farrago of garbage.

Apologies, I gave an opinion on whether or not someone is a first teamer not based on how much they play. Either way my point still stands that Poch like the rest of the Premier League are considerably worse at providing academy players with chances, compared to other European leagues. Is that OK to state? Do you believe the Premier League is doing a good job at developing talent despite the number of academy players being included in first team squads. I don't and dearth of English talent in the Premier League suggests that, despite English academies producing better players than other countries.

As I said Poch is no better than any other manager in the league at this, I've made a list below of current academy players including in the Top 6 squads. I'll exclude current loanees that were once included as part of past squads as we'll be here forever. As you can see Poch is no better, or in fact worse than managers with comparable squads. England suck at developing academy players ergo Poch sucks at it, is that OK to say?

Spurs - Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters
Arsenal - Bellerin, Wilshere, Maitland-Niles, Coquelin, Iwobi, Akpom
Chelsea - Christensen, Musonda, Scott
Liverpool - Alexander-Arnold, Kent, Ejaria, Wilson, Kent, Woodburn
Man City - Adarabioyo, Maffeo, Diaz, Foden, Zinchenko
Man Utd - Pereira, Rashford, Tuanzebe, McTominay

As you can see Poch is no better, at giving academy players chances than managers with comparable squads. If they can be critiqued can Poch. Are we allowed to give our views on where England can improve or should we just allow things to continue? Stop getting so upset over people believing things can be improved.

Thank you for your constructive post I'll take it all on board next time, especially the spelling lesson, I've bookmarked it for the future.

 

[IGSpur]

The number is accurate, I'm confident of that. In fact I left off KWP, he possibly qualifies which would make the number 10 if that's so. You can add four more who made debuts in first team friendlies if you like too.

I've no idea as to number of minutes played but at least they are getting a sniff and the door is open and one has gone on to play for England. I'm not sure how many more is required to satisfy when you consider pressure to get results, balancing established first team players need for game time and all the other stuff entailed.

I don't disagree that there is a lot of balancing, but I believe that as a whole the Premier League and Poch aren't doing enough. When people just say well Poch is good at bringing academy players through, he is not better than any other manager and we either accept it as it is, that England will have a terrible talent pool despite winning countless trophies or look to see if more or something different can be done

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Spurs - Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters
Arsenal - Bellerin, Wilshere, Maitland-Niles, Coquelin, Iwobi, Akpom
Chelsea - Christensen, Musonda, Scott
Liverpool - Alexander-Arnold, Kent, Ejaria, Wilson, Kent, Woodburn
Man City - Adarabioyo, Maffeo, Diaz, Foden, Zinchenko
Man Utd - Pereira, Rashford, Tuanzebe, McTominay

Debuts given to academy players by Pochettino In 'proper' competitive matches

Cameron Carter-Vickers

Marcus Edwards

Anton Walkes

Shayon Harrison

Filip Lesniak

Josh Onomah

Harry Winks

Tashan Okley-Boothe

Anthony Georgiou

KWP

In first team friendlies

Luke Amos

Dominic Ball

Will Miller

Kazaiah Sterling

This is by no means a definitive list, just what I stumbled across so there may be the odd error but this is what I think giving a chance to an academy player means, but it's not as simple as giving them a game, half a game or 4 minutes. There's valuable experience to be gained just by being in the squad and soaking it all in, the training, what it entails, how the first team prepare and so much more, but the list is confined to debuts, I'd place a very hefty bet that the list of academy players included in first team match squads and not used is much, much higher.

In today's football you can't afford to have a squad top heavy with academy players, its a process, some cut the mustard, some don't and those who do (Winks for example) pay off big time, not only in terms of sell on value but also in the saving of transfer fees to fill that spot in the squad and they set the benchmark for other academy players to meet.

I was unaware that you considered giving an academy player a 'chance' to be that he's included in the first team squad proper and given the pressures involved I think it's a ridiculous yardstick to measure the thing by and if we were to extend it to a catch-all heading of 'young players' Pochettino comes out WAY ahead of any manager in the Premier League.

Young players (in general) easily get as much of a chance at Spurs as anywhere else, but its far likely that its actually a lot more given it wasn't that long ago we were chasing the title with the youngest squad in the league.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Spurs - Kane, Winks, Walker-Peters
Arsenal - Bellerin, Wilshere, Maitland-Niles, Coquelin, Iwobi, Akpom
Chelsea - Christensen, Musonda, Scott
Liverpool - Alexander-Arnold, Kent, Ejaria, Wilson, Kent, Woodburn
Man City - Adarabioyo, Maffeo, Diaz, Foden, Zinchenko
Man Utd - Pereira, Rashford, Tuanzebe, McTominay

Thanks for backing up the opinions with some proper arguments this time.

@Archibald&Crooks has done what I couldn't be arsed to do (because I had to cook dinner this evening) and make a proper list of the academy players who have participated in the first team.

What we learn from your and his contrasting lists that is that the issue here is not Pochettino's resistance or enthusiasm to promoting youth. It's whether the youth acquits itself to his satisfaction. He's a demanding fucker, with a tendency to make quick - and usually accurate - judgments on players.

Of the 14 players on A&C's list, some of them are back in the youth ranks and some are gone. That's not an indictment of Pochettino's unwillingness to incorporate youth players in the first team. It's an indication that he has high standards.

He will try players who might be ready. He will give nearly any talented player a chance. One chance, maybe two. But we all know how ruthless he is when he decides players will not fit.

I think that's underlying the difference of opinion here. You're looking at how many youth players are regularly on the pitch in competitive matches. I'm looking at how many youth players get their chance to shine, which they either grasp or fail to grasp.

The quality (or lack thereof) of players from the academy is not really Pochettino's problem. You're basically criticising him for having higher standards than his competitors. I'm happy with that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Thanks for backing up the opinions with some proper arguments this time.

@Archibald&Crooks has done what I couldn't be arsed to do (because I had to cook dinner this evening) and make a proper list of the academy players who have participated in the first team.

What we learn from your and his contrasting lists that is that the issue here is not Pochettino's resistance or enthusiasm to promoting youth. It's whether the youth acquits itself to his satisfaction. He's a demanding fucker, with a tendency to make quick - and usually accurate - judgments on players.

Of the 14 players on A&C's list, some of them are back in the youth ranks and some are gone. That's not an indictment of Pochettino's unwillingness to incorporate youth players in the first team. It's an indication that he has high standards.

He will try players who might be ready. He will give nearly any talented player a chance. One chance, maybe two. But we all know how ruthless he is when he decides players will not fit.

I think that's underlying the difference of opinion here. You're looking at how many youth players are regularly on the pitch in competitive matches. I'm looking at how many youth players get their chance to shine, which they either grasp or fail to grasp.

The quality (or lack thereof) of players from the academy is not really Pochettino's problem. You're basically criticising him for having higher standards than his competitors. I'm happy with that.

You do spout some exceedingly condescending bollocks at times DM, even by my standards. If we look a bit deeper than merely listing names, and into the amount of time these players are actually given, how these players have been used and in what type of circumstances they are used in we can make a much better assessment of Pochettino's resistance or enthusiasm to integrate the very best youth players. Just listing a bunch of players who have been given a few minutes each in meaningless games does not validate your assessment that Piochettino's judgement is beyond critique or criticism.

It is a very valid to be having a conversation about whether Pochettino has, so far, made the very best use of academy players at his disposal, and whether he does apply his alleged "standards" fairly and equitably when assessing academy players and all others.

@IGSpur makes a very valid point, and that is that despite us producing some of the best kids produced in this country over the last 3/4 years, not one of them has been integrated by Pochettino, that hadn't been introduced or established already by a previous coach, to be considered a first team "regular" - Winks may, or may not change that, but he hasn't quite yet, or even if you consider he has, that would be one player, in four years, introduced by Pochettino himself.

Now, Pochettino's judgement may be 100% on this. Every single decision he's taken with regards to academy players may have been right, just like every single decision he takes in every other facet of his management might be right, but if so, he'd have better cognitive functionality than most humans, and many super computers on this planet, so it's pretty naive of you to assume it can't be questioned.

The argument IG was making wasn't whether Pochettino has ever given one minute to an academy player, it was about players being truly integrated to be part of regular first team football or at least getting fair chances to fail to be integrated. Saying a kid who has played one league game or a total of 20 league minutes (and who isn't even physically at the club but on loan elsewhere) in the last 3 years is a first team player is just disingenuous nonsense.

Nearly every one of those players on @Archibald&Crooks list have had nothing but a scant few minutes, sometimes not even in "proper" games. Nobody would expect Poch to have integrated 9 players, properly, into a side that has challenged for league titles two years running, but there are some valid questions to asked about why a couple of them haven't had better chances.

Some of the very valid questions would be:

Why has Onomah not been given a single minute as a CM, in three years of being part of the first team squad, including in dead rubber games, cup games that clearly meant nothing to Pochettino, games where we were 3/4/5-nil up, or pre season friendlies ? If he had, could he not be at least as viable as a CM as Sissoko is now.

Why is Sissoko even being played ? Because he is clearly nowhere near Pochettino's "uber high standards" is it beciuse Pochettino requested we buy him for 30m and he will look like a major chump if he doesn't at least use him occasionally ? Is that about high standards, ego or fear?

If attitude and pitch high standards applied equally and rigorously, why did we purchase Aurier for 24m, a player who was arrested for assaulting someone, suspended by his club for publicly saying his manager sucked Ibra's cock, has never been flawless on the pitch, which is why he was not getting played regularly by his previous club and why he was bad mouthing them, and a player who would almost certainly need time to integrate into a new league and country - rather than continue to integrate KWP, a player who has excelled in training, is an exemplary character, one of the most highly rated players of his generation, who had just been awarded MOTM for his league debut?

Why, when Dier and Dembele clearly have limitations and injury issues respectively, did we not see Winks for 3 to 4 months last season, next to Wanyama, when he was constantly available to start games ?

Why was Pritchard not given a single minute by Pochettino, despite excelling in the championship on loan?

Why do we constantly hear the bollocks about Edwards "attitude" preventing him from being given more "minutes" than the 10 he's had in the last three years ? If true, why is Rose allowed back into the first team ? Has Edwards not apologised for whatever his "crime of attitude" was ? I assume he must have because he's been made captain of our YCL team this season ? In terms of footballing "high standards", his are already higher than Sissoko's, so what meritocratic ideology is being applied here ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Debuts given to academy players by Pochettino In 'proper' competitive matches

Cameron Carter-Vickers

Marcus Edwards

Anton Walkes

Shayon Harrison

Filip Lesniak

Josh Onomah

Harry Winks

Tashan Okley-Boothe

Anthony Georgiou

KWP

In first team friendlies

Luke Amos

Dominic Ball

Will Miller

Kazaiah Sterling

This is by no means a definitive list, just what I stumbled across so there may be the odd error but this is what I think giving a chance to an academy player means, but it's not as simple as giving them a game, half a game or 4 minutes. There's valuable experience to be gained just by being in the squad and soaking it all in, the training, what it entails, how the first team prepare and so much more, but the list is confined to debuts, I'd place a very hefty bet that the list of academy players included in first team match squads and not used is much, much higher.

In today's football you can't afford to have a squad top heavy with academy players, its a process, some cut the mustard, some don't and those who do (Winks for example) pay off big time, not only in terms of sell on value but also in the saving of transfer fees to fill that spot in the squad and they set the benchmark for other academy players to meet.

I was unaware that you considered giving an academy player a 'chance' to be that he's included in the first team squad proper and given the pressures involved I think it's a ridiculous yardstick to measure the thing by and if we were to extend it to a catch-all heading of 'young players' Pochettino comes out WAY ahead of any manager in the Premier League.

Young players (in general) easily get as much of a chance at Spurs as anywhere else, but its far likely that its actually a lot more given it wasn't that long ago we were chasing the title with the youngest squad in the league.

But giving a player 5 minutes isn't giving them a chance is it ? It's ticking a box so that people can compile lists like yours.

For sure, some of those on that list probably haven't merited the time they have got, some I don't rate at all and think we probably shouldn't have even kept on past a certain stage. But a couple should have got more time on the pitch.

What some of us would like to see is more logic and fairness applied to the process. A kid that has been training and preparing with us for sometimes 10 years, and has excelled at every level to that point, surely deserves more than 10 minutes, or even one game or two to prove he can fulfil, if not world class - Kane - remit, then maybe genuine first team/squad rotational status or not?

Pochettino is the best coach we've had in my time, but I do not think that he applies his logic, standards and ethos to academy players the same as he does all others. He is not alone, there is an inherent, sometimes fair, but sometimes misguided, risk aversion toward youth integration in English football. And the issue is more complicated than just first team coaches, but in our case, Pochettino definitely has made some pretty irrational and illogical choices where some academy players are concerned.

 

[Coyboy]

But giving a player 5 minutes isn't giving them a chance is it ? It's ticking a box so that people can compile lists like yours.

For sure, some of those on that list probably haven't merited the time they have got, some I don't rate at all and think we probably shouldn't have even kept on past a certain stage. But a couple should have got more time on the pitch.

What some of us would like to see is more logic and fairness applied to the process. A kid that has been training and preparing with us for sometimes 10 years, and has excelled at every level to that point, surely deserves more than 10 minutes, or even one game or two to prove he can fulfil, if not world class - Kane - remit, then maybe genuine first team/squad rotational status or not?

Pochettino is the best coach we've had in my time, but I do not think that he applies his logic, standards and ethos to academy players the same as he does all others. He is not alone, there is an inherent, sometimes fair, but sometimes misguided, risk aversion toward youth integration in English football. And the issue is more complicated than just first team coaches, but in our case, Pochettino definitely has made some pretty irrational and illogical choices where some academy players are concerned.

....which you are not in a position to judge because you do not know these players, do not see them in training and (unless you can correct me) are not professionally trained to judge whether a player is physically, technically or mentally ready.

It's not as if Poch comes out after every game or before every game and says "Today I didn't pick KWP because x,yz".

You keep on making false comparisons between the attitudinal issues pertaining to Rose/Aurier and those of Onomah/Edwards. They're not the same. Aurier, to be fair to him, has not done anything wrong of note off the pitch that I am aware of so what's your argument? That we shouldn't have signed him. You were all for us signing Bellamy years ago. Rose ran his mouth to a tabloid in the summer. It has been dealt with, we don't know exactly how but it's a non-sequitur to say that because of this, other players who have developmental issue with their game or mentality should go in front of him in the queue.

The issue with Onomah/Edwards according to some reports and reading between the lines on what Poch has said is that they are not mentally, and possibly technically/physically, ready for EPL football. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong. I don't know them, have seen them play very seldom (as have you and even the most ardent Spurs fans) and not qualified to say whether that is sound management or illogical/unfair/irrational as you constantly do as if you know better.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

....which you are not in a position to judge because you do not know these players, do not see them in training and (unless you can correct me) are not professionally trained to judge whether a player is physically, technically or mentally ready.

It's not as if Poch comes out after every game or before every game and says "Today I didn't pick KWP because x,yz".

You keep on making false comparisons between the attitudinal issues pertaining to Rose/Aurier and those of Onomah/Edwards. They're not the same. Aurier, to be fair to him, has not done anything wrong of note off the pitch that I am aware of so what's your argument? That we shouldn't have signed him. You were all for us signing Bellamy years ago. Rose ran his mouth to a tabloid in the summer. It has been dealt with, we don't know exactly how but it's a non-sequitur to say that because of this, other players who have developmental issue with their game or mentality should go in front of him in the queue.

The issue with Onomah/Edwards according to some reports and reading between the lines on what Poch has said is that they are not mentally, and possibly technically/physically, ready for EPL football. I am not saying whether that is right or wrong. I don't know them, have seen them play very seldom (as have you and even the most ardent Spurs fans) and not qualified to say whether that is sound management or illogical/unfair/irrational as you constantly do as if you know better.

What position do I need to be in to point out that just listing players who have had minuscule minutes on the pitch for the first team, some in meaningless games, is not an indicator of a good integration policy?


I told you what Aurier had done off the pitch in my post. But there is much more on his CV. Apart from the assault charge (two month suspended prison sentence last November), he publicly posted a social media clip, accusing his manager at PSG of sucking off Ibrahimavc. Abusing a ref on twitter, called his team's goalie "gay", insulting three others team mates inc. DeMaria, and was investigated by FIFA for making throat slitting gestures in an international game. He was also called to come off the bench for PSG last March and hadn't put his kit on. Anyone doing basic due diligence on this transfer for the club would know this.

My point isn't that this should or shouldn't be held against him forever, in terms of his career and future moves etc, or that I have "high moral standards", I was using it as a rebuttal to the claim that Poch's high moral standards and code of ethics are impeccable and that, with experienced players, in some cases, he clearly seems to have no problem compromising those "extremely high standards" of behaviour, so it's very unlikely that the very minor "alleged" (and they are so alleged that nobody has ever posted a single example of what they might be) issues presented by someone like Edwards are a valid reason for his not getting any more time after than debut against Gillingham (a debut cameo in which he looked very good).

It's very hypocritical of you to claim you can "read between the lines" as to why certain players aren't getting advanced, but make out me (or any of us) are incapable of making judgement calls or having a viable opinion on this issue (of academy integration) when it's not "very seldom" that we've seen most of these players but often 20-30-40 times of full matches. Especially when those judgements/opinions are mostly that these players just deserve a bit more than they are actually getting, not that they deserve the same as other, more experienced players, and that there isn't always the same logic, ethics and criteria applied to them that is applied to other sectors of our squad, based on everything we do know, a couple of samples I have provided.

You can argue the validity of those opinions based on your, vastly inferior, knowledge (as I assume you have watched a lot less of the youth football than I have - and much less than others arguing the same (like @IGSpur and @WindyCOYS and @Blake Griffin etc) but your claim that we have no right to an opinion at all because we have little knowledge of the situation is pretty weak.

We all appreciate that we don't see these players train, just like we don't see any senior players training, but that doesn't render all opinion of them (senior or academy) void, we do see them play, often many, many times, youth games, reserve games, U23's, major international tournaments, senior loan games, and lastly the odd game or minutes for the first team.

The bottom line is you, A&C and DM are in a much worse position to judge than some of the people arguing their case, who have actually seen a lot more of these kids than you have. So I'm not really sure why you think think you are in a position to judge or lecture us about how wrong we are to have these opinions.

We all make judgements about Pochettino's decisions regarding everything based on what we know, what is available to us, either overtly, publicly or covertly through sources etc. None of us stand on the training ground. But it's a safe assumption that if a young player wasn't showing a high level of aptitude in training, he wouldn't even be there, as we are constantly told Poch's ethics won't permit it.

 

[Coyboy]

What position do I need to be in to point out that just listing players who have had minuscule minutes on the pitch for the first team, some in meaningless games, is not an indicator of a good integration policy?


I told you what Aurier had done off the pitch in my post. But there is much more on his CV. Apart from the assault charge (two month suspended prison sentence last November), he publicly posted a social media clip, accusing his manager at PSG of sucking off Ibrahimavc. Abusing a ref on twitter, called his team's goalie "gay", insulting three others team mates inc. DeMaria, and was investigated by FIFA for making throat slitting gestures in an international game. He was also called to come off the bench for PSG last March and hadn't put his kit on. Anyone doing basic due diligence on this transfer for the club would know this.

My point isn't that this should or shouldn't be held against him forever, in terms of his career and future moves etc, or that I have "high moral standards", I was using it as a rebuttal to the claim that Poch's high moral standards and code of ethics are impeccable and that, with experienced players, in some cases, he clearly seems to have no problem compromising those "extremely high standards" of behaviour, so it's very unlikely that the very minor "alleged" (and they are so alleged that nobody has ever posted a single example of what they might be) issues presented by someone like Edwards are a valid reason for his not getting any more time after than debut against Gillingham (a debut cameo in which he looked very good).

It's very hypocritical of you to claim you can "read between the lines" as to why certain players aren't getting advanced, but make out me (or any of us) are incapable of making judgement calls or having a viable opinion on this issue (of academy integration) when it's not "very seldom" that we've seen most of these players but often 20-30-40 times of full matches. Especially when those judgements/opinions are mostly that these players just deserve a bit more than they are actually getting, not that they deserve the same as other, more experienced players, and that there isn't always the same logic, ethics and criteria applied to them that is applied to other sectors of our squad, based on everything we do know, a couple of samples I have provided.

You can argue the validity of those opinions based on your, vastly inferior, knowledge (as I assume you have watched a lot less of the youth football than I have - and much less than others arguing the same (like @IGSpur and @WindyCOYS and @Blake Griffin etc) but your claim that we have no right to an opinion at all because we have little knowledge of the situation is pretty weak.

We all appreciate that we don't see these players train, just like we don't see any senior players training, but that doesn't render all opinion of them (senior or academy) void, we do see them play, often many, many times, youth games, reserve games, U23's, major international tournaments, senior loan games, and lastly the odd game or minutes for the first team.

The bottom line is you, A&C and DM are in a much worse position to judge than some of the people arguing their case, who have actually seen a lot more of these kids than you have. So I'm not really sure why you think think you are in a position to judge or lecture us about how wrong we are to have these opinions.

We all make judgements about Pochettino's decisions regarding everything based on what we know, what is available to us, either overtly, publicly or covertly through sources etc. None of us stand on the training ground. But it's a safe assumption that if a young player wasn't showing a high level of aptitude in training, he wouldn't even be there, as we are constantly told Poch's ethics won't permit it.

You don’t seem able to appreciate the distinction between having opinions and the manner in which you express them.

Spot the difference:

“I think Edwards should be given a go. From what I’ve seen of him he’s ready”

“Poch is being idiotic. I can’t believe he has wasted the opportunity to play Edwards. He’s being illogical and irrational”.

Re Aurier, I meant what “what has he done since we signed him”. I appreciate that wasn’t clear and am aware he has a controversial history. So what’s your point? That we shouldn’t have signed him? That we should sign him and put him behind KWP because, seemingly, KWP hasn’t acted like a tit?

I’m not being hypocritical at all. That’s another non-sequitur. I’ve read comments about Onomah and Edwards and deduced that there are areas of their game/mentality that need improving. That deduction may be wrong. You’re right, I have not seen much of Edwards. I don’t need to. I respect the views of many on here, of spurs fans on podcasts and most of all Poch that he has talent. But how he performs or even excels in youth team is no barometer for his suitability for professional EPL games; or better said it doesn’t immediately make people who have watched him a few times (30 to 40 sounds very dubious) better qualified than Poch. The right to opinion: yes. The right to superior judgement:no.

I never said your, or any other fans’ opinions are void. It’s the degree of absolutism in your posts that I and others take issue with; that Poch is just wrong. He’s being unfair. He’s being short sighted. He’s being hypocritical. You of course can disagree with his decisions; I disagree with playing Sissoko most of the time but I do so from an admitted position of oignorance and amateur knowledge. How much do you know about nurturing and coaching footballers? Not as much as Poch I’d guess so while it isn’t a trait you ever demonstrate, a little perspective and humility are required here.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You don’t seem able to appreciate the distinction between having opinions and the manner in which you express them.

Spot the difference:

“I think Edwards should be given a go. From what I’ve seen of him he’s ready”

“Poch is being idiotic. I can’t believe he has wasted the opportunity to play Edwards. He’s being illogical and irrational”.

Re Aurier, I meant what “what has he done since we signed him”. I appreciate that wasn’t clear and am aware he has a controversial history. So what’s your point? That we shouldn’t have signed him? That we should sign him and put him behind KWP because, seemingly, KWP hasn’t acted like a tit?

I’m not being hypocritical at all. That’s another non-sequitur. I’ve read comments about Onomah and Edwards and deduced that there are areas of their game/mentality that need improving. That deduction may be wrong. You’re right, I have not seen much of Edwards. I don’t need to. I respect the views of many on here, of spurs fans on podcasts and most of all Poch that he has talent. But how he performs or even excels in youth team is no barometer for his suitability for professional EPL games; or better said it doesn’t immediately make people who have watched him a few times (30 to 40 sounds very dubious) better qualified than Poch. The right to opinion: yes. The right to superior judgement:no.

I never said your, or any other fans’ opinions are void. It’s the degree of absolutism in your posts that I and others take issue with; that Poch is just wrong. He’s being unfair. He’s being short sighted. He’s being hypocritical. You of course can disagree with his decisions; I disagree with playing Sissoko most of the time but I do so from an admitted position of oignorance and amateur knowledge. How much do you know about nurturing and coaching footballers? Not as much as Poch I’d guess so while it isn’t a trait you ever demonstrate, a little perspective and humility are required here.

I don't rally understand the lack of humility or perspective in pointing out the relative meaninglessness of A&C compiling a list of kids given, in most cases, random, small minutes as an example of Pochettino's ability to integrate academy players.

That was the post of mine you posted, so can you explain that to me?


Why is it OK for you to show strong opinions - or what you would call "a lack of humility and perspective" - in say, the Monarchy thread, despite you not being privy to much of the machinations of the Royal household, budget etc, or in the tattoo thread, but it's not OK with you for me to hold strong opinions about Poch's youth integration policy?

Have you ever pompously lectured A&C for his lack of humility and perspective where Levy is concerned?

Did you like the "manner" in which DavidMatdorf tried to insult and humiliate IGSpur, rather than just arguing his point ? Have you pompously lectured him yet about his lack of humility ?

Or am the chosen one when it comes to your pontificating?

I have often expressed understanding and admiration (glowing admiration) for much of what Pochettino does, in fact I ended the post you initially quoted as follows:

Pochettino is the best coach we've had in my time, but I do not think that he applies his logic, standards and ethos to academy players the same as he does all others. He is not alone, there is an inherent, sometimes fair, but sometimes misguided, risk aversion toward youth integration in English football. And the issue is more complicated than just first team coaches, but in our case, Pochettino definitely has made some pretty irrational and illogical choices where some academy players are concerned.

Is this really lacking completely in "humility and perspective" ?

 

[The Apprentice]

This kind of post, this style of "thinking", just makes steam come out of my ears. It's a post-truth post: the malignant 21c. use of the concept of "opinion" again, as in "my opinion is just as good as anyone's", even when there are no facts attached to your "opinions", only confirmation bias and self-aggrandising delusion.



No one gives a fuck whether you "see him as a first team player". He is a first team player. He is a member of the first team squad.

Here is the proof positive that demonstrates that your"opinion" is demonstrably wrong. That listing makes him a first team player, even if he plays 10 minutes over the whole season. The first team isn't a state of mind, nor is it a matter of "opinion". It is a list of names and Kyle Walker-Peters is on it. That is a demonstrable and correct fact, whatever "opinion" you happen to hold.



No, it is not subjective. That's another one of your random "opinions", un-backed with fact. AVB brought through relatively few academy players. Sherwood brought through many, in part because he had already worked with them. Pochettino has done likewise. His reputation for preferring to work with youth precedes him, all the way from Southampton.

And that should be "biased", not "bias". No one seems to understand the past tense anymore when it comes to this word. One has a bias. One is biased.



That's another ludicrous falsehood masquerading, through the slippery medium of 21c. "opinion", as truth. Here a non-comprehensive the list of five currently listed first team players from our academy: Harry Kane, Harry Winks, Kyle Walker-Peters, Josh Onomah (prior to his loan), Cameron Carter-Vickers (ditto). There may be others. These players are all currently included in the first team squad. That makes them first team players, incontrovertibly and without any further debate. That is accurate. Your supposition is false. Your personal spin does not decide who is in the first team. The club decides that.

Your whole post is the Trump, Farage and Johnson school of bullshit. First you decide what your "opinion" is, then you ignore, adapt and alter facts as necessary and repeat your "opinion" as if it is just as valid as fact, until no one can tell the difference anymore. I need a fucking glass of wine after reading that farrago of garbage.

What a thoroughly unlikeable little man.

 

[SpursSince1980]

This thread took a rather odd turn...

 

[Ionman34]

I don't rally understand the lack of humility or perspective in pointing out the relative meaninglessness of A&C compiling a list of kids given, in most cases, random, small minutes as an example of Pochettino's ability to integrate academy players.

That was the post of mine you posted, so can you explain that to me?


Why is it OK for you to show strong opinions - or what you would call "a lack of humility and perspective" - in say, the Monarchy thread, despite you not being privy to much of the machinations of the Royal household, budget etc, but it's not OK with you for me to hold strong opinions about Poch's youth integration policy?

Have you ever pompously lectured A&C for his lack of humility and perspective where Levy is concerned?

Did you like the "manner" in which DavidMatdorf tried to insult and humiliate IGSpur, rather than just arguing his point ? Have you pompously lectured him yet about his lack of humility ?

Or am the chosen one when it comes to your pontificating?

I have often expressed understanding and admiration (glowing admiration) for much of what Pochettino does, in fact I ended the post you initially quoted as follows:



Is this really lacking completely in "humility and perspective" ?

I don’t want to get involved in your little tete a tête-à-tête here BC, but I just wanted to add a caveat to your first paragraph.

We don’t understand YET just whether that time given to these young players is meaningless. I’d postulate that it is quite the opposite to them. It gives them a taste of first team action, enables them to realise a dream, and may just be the taster that gives them the impetus to take them on another level. Like not to trophies, once you get a taste of one, you want more.

I’d also say that it is far too early to categorically state that he is not, or more to the point will not, integrate them into the first team when HE feels they are ready.

It is impossible to state with any certainty that he is incorrect, though I acknowledge that this is only offered as an opinion by yourself.

For myself, I see his giving of these minutes you claim to be “meaningless” as just the first stages of the integration of those he sees as “potentially” worthy. Give them a taste, see how they perform, then see just what their desire is like to get back in to get more of what they sampled. It’s as much a test of their resolve to see how they react to going back to the reserve ranks after getting so close. Those who redouble their efforts are those who show what it takes to make it. Those that don’t get moved on.

Having said that, I too would like to see more of our brightest talents in the dead rubbers, cup games and killed off games that you refer to. But i believe there is a science to what he is doing, showing up the mentally strong players that have talent, as these are the cream that we want in the first team, quality over quantity if you will.

That’s my theory and opinion anyway.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I don’t want to get involved in your little tete a tête-à-tête here BC, but I just wanted to add a caveat to your first paragraph.

We don’t understand YET just whether that time given to these young players is meaningless. I’d postulate that it is quite the opposite to them. It gives them a taste of first team action, enables them to realise a dream, and may just be the taster that gives them the impetus to take them on another level. Like not to trophies, once you get a taste of one, you want more.

I’d also say that it is far too early to categorically state that he is not, or more to the point will not, integrate them into the first team when HE feels they are ready.

It is impossible to state with any certainty that he is incorrect, though I acknowledge that this is only offered as an opinion by yourself.

For myself, I see his giving of these minutes you claim to be “meaningless” as just the first stages of the integration of those he sees as “potentially” worthy. Give them a taste, see how they perform, then see just what their desire is like to get back in to get more of what they sampled. It’s as much a test of their resolve to see how they react to going back to the reserve ranks after getting so close. Those who redouble their efforts are those who show what it takes to make it. Those that don’t get moved on.

Having said that, I too would like to see more of our brightest talents in the dead rubbers, cup games and killed off games that you refer to. But i believe there is a science to what he is doing, showing up the mentally strong players that have talent, as these are the cream that we want in the first team, quality over quantity if you will.

That’s my theory and opinion anyway.

I hate to interrupt anyone's postulation, but If you re-read that line, you'll see I said that A&C compiling a list of players with minuscule minutes in various types of game is meaningless, in terms of arguing Poch's ability to properly integrate academy players, not that giving players minutes is meaningless.

Many of those players have already left the club, had no chance of making it here (most of us could see that) and some are on their way out soon, again by general consensus.

Just to repeat, giving players chances and minutes is not meaningless, but claiming that some of these examples of "minutes" are meaningful demonstrations of good integration, is.

 

[Coyboy]

I don't rally understand the lack of humility or perspective in pointing out the relative meaninglessness of A&C compiling a list of kids given, in most cases, random, small minutes as an example of Pochettino's ability to integrate academy players.

That was the post of mine you posted, so can you explain that to me?


Why is it OK for you to show strong opinions - or what you would call "a lack of humility and perspective" - in say, the Monarchy thread, despite you not being privy to much of the machinations of the Royal household, budget etc, or in the tattoo thread, but it's not OK with you for me to hold strong opinions about Poch's youth integration policy?

Have you ever pompously lectured A&C for his lack of humility and perspective where Levy is concerned?

Did you like the "manner" in which DavidMatdorf tried to insult and humiliate IGSpur, rather than just arguing his point ? Have you pompously lectured him yet about his lack of humility ?

Or am the chosen one when it comes to your pontificating?

I have often expressed understanding and admiration (glowing admiration) for much of what Pochettino does, in fact I ended the post you initially quoted as follows:



Is this really lacking completely in "humility and perspective" ?

I was talking more generally about the trend of your posts so spare me the “why me” bollocks; but in particular about the part of post I highlighted.

The tattoo/monarchy threads are completely different. One is personal taste and the other something I do know about.

You’re not reading my posts properly. Have strong opinions, please do, but maybe show a bit of recognition that you’re not a professional coach and that Poch knows more than you do and is therefore better placed to make judgment calls. Please do disagree with him. I do. I have said that. But stop making out that you know more than he does.

So you like him. I never said you were fervently anti-Poch so I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make when you keep repeating praise you’ve given him.

And I find DM’s posts rarely, if ever, insulting and almost always succinct and articulate, arguing his points well. And I can’t recall anti-Levy posts from A&C.

 

[IGSpur]

I never said your, or any other fans’ opinions are void. It’s the degree of absolutism in your posts that I and others take issue with; that Poch is just wrong. He’s being unfair. He’s being short sighted. He’s being hypocritical. You of course can disagree with his decisions; I disagree with playing Sissoko most of the time but I do so from an admitted position of oignorance and amateur knowledge. How much do you know about nurturing and coaching footballers? Not as much as Poch I’d guess so while it isn’t a trait you ever demonstrate, a little perspective and humility are required here.

This is fair but I don't think anyone posts believing they know more than Poch anyway, I certainly don't. We shouldn't have to caveat everything we say with "imo but bare in mind I don't have a UEFA Pro A Licence" If you, or the hundreds of other posters, who don't rate Sissoko, I don't read it as any believe they no more than Poch. Either way Poch isn't 100% right about everything, I doubt if Pep was our manager he would make the exact same decisions as Poch and neither would others managers which leaves things open to be questioned. The argument that just becuase he is the manager he will always know what he is doing, doesn't quite hold weight as I'm sure we would have won something by now if he was always making correct decisions.

The Sporting Director at Monchengladbach said that the English academies have the best young players and they are being under used when compared to German players, I'm sure he knows what he is talking about, so is it fair to say that he may be right and believe we should be using them more? I'm sure if Sherwood was still our manager you wouldn't have a problem with people challenging his beliefs. He along with McDermott helped develop and bring through a load of academy players, that helped save Poch in is first season, and consequently have made us money. I think it is fair to question why this has dropped off, as my lowly self, and very qualified people in the game believe they are good enough. The league is arguably weaker, based on how far PL clubs are getting in Europe but the academy players are getting better and yet they are still struggling to find a way in. I don't believe that so few are good enough, and I think it's fair to provide an opinion on whether you think a player should be given more chances the same way a fan might provide an opinion on who we should buy or what formation we should play.

 

[Coyboy]

This is fair but I don't think anyone posts believing they know more than Poch anyway, I certainly don't. We shouldn't have to caveat everything we say with "imo but bare in mind I don't have a UEFA Pro A Licence" If you, or the hundreds of other posters, who don't rate Sissoko, I don't read it as any believe they no more than Poch. Either way Poch isn't 100% right about everything, I doubt if Pep was our manager he would make the exact same decisions as Poch and neither would others managers which leaves things open to be questioned. The argument that just becuase he is the manager he will always know what he is doing, doesn't quite hold weight as I'm sure we would have won something by now if he was always making correct decisions.

The Sporting Director at Monchengladbach said that the English academies have the best young players and they are being under used when compared to German players, I'm sure he knows what he is talking about, so is it fair to say that he may be right and believe we should be using them more? I'm sure if Sherwood was still our manager you wouldn't have a problem with people challenging his beliefs. He along with McDermott helped develop and bring through a load of academy players, that helped save Poch in is first season, and consequently have made us money. I think it is fair to question why this has dropped off, as my lowly self, and very qualified people in the game believe they are good enough. The league is arguably weaker, based on how far PL clubs are getting in Europe but the academy players are getting better and yet they are still struggling to find a way in. I don't believe that so few are good enough, and I think it's fair to provide an opinion on whether you think a player should be given more chances the same way a fan might provide an opinion on who we should buy or what formation we should play.

And I think that’s a fair post.

No, people don’t need to caveat posts with “Poch knows better” but it’s implied he doesn’t when people say his decisions are “idiotic” or “illogical” or state as masqueraded fact that “KWP- or whoever- is ready”. None of us is qualified to state this.

It may well be that he is making the wrong decision, to the extent there is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ decision about when to play youngsters but the way some people talk, one would think that they know better. There is a lot of hysteria and overreacting when we don’t play some people’s favourites as if there will never be another chance or, at least possibly, Poch has prioritised winning the game or giving established first teamers game time to get fit.

You make a good point about young players being integrated under Sherwood and in fact before. Kane, Townsend, Livermore (who is an example of a player we made money off) and possibly Mason made appearances pre Poch; but these instances did not occur in a vacuum. Mostly they were after loan spells, sub appearances and most likely training with the first team going back to the Redknapp days.

In the cases of KWP, Onomah and Edwards (as examples of players that are in the first team squad, on loan or on the fringes of either) time will tell if they have the physical, technical and most importantly mental fortitude to succeed. I’ve said it before that I don’t feel we have let any youth academy product leave which we would now regret (see Smith, Caulker, Townsend, Livermore, Carroll, Daniels, Mason). I personally would exclude Mason as he would have been important this season and maybe last when we were without Wanyama, Winks and Dembèlé being half fit but Poch says he wanted first team football so....