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Taking on the top 4

cabinfever

Cabinfever's blue and white army
May 14, 2004
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2,013
This is a comment I made in a different thread but I thought it might be an interesting subject for debate.

I'm leaning towards the thought that we should take couple of years to regroup somewhat, settle our squad and not have the usual turmoil during transfer windows.

Liverpool, Arsenal, Manchester United and Chelsea have dominated over the last few years, however, one factor which will effect them, in my opinion, going forward, is their managers.

Ferguson and Wenger will move on/move upstairs/retire in the next couple of years and Chelsea will continue to change their manager every 2.738 seconds. This may lead to a time of instability for one or more of them and an opportunity for a team that's ready to take advantage - why should that not be us?

Some of you will remember Liverpool's domination of the game, a time when it was hard to imagine anyone else winning anything, ever again, however, times change, managers and players move on and then it's someone else's turn.

Some will say that the Champions League cash has changed everything and that the present monopoly can't be broken, but it can, and it will, time has proven that in the past.

Everything goes in cycles and change will come, we just have to be ready to take advantage when it does.

Will we be ready when the chance comes? Can we do it?

Why not take the Barack Obama attitude - "Yes we can".
 

bigspurs

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2005
3,193
2,419
You're right in principle. However certain 'top four' teams have proven that even when they are beaten to a top four finish, they are prepared to corrupt the game (Lasagne-gate).
 

JimmyG2

SC Supporter
Dec 7, 2006
15,014
20,779
I think that this theme of stability and continuity is an emerging one amongst a growing number of Spurs fans fed up with the constant change of players and managers.
Ive been saying it for some time but it seems relevant to repeat it here.
9 managers in 12 years: 100 players in ten years, virtually a team every season. Did it work? You do the math as they say.
Davidmatzdorf claims he started it and as we agree on this I won't challenge him on the authorship of this revolutionary policy at Spurs.
Lets have a change and not make the change is my new slogan. Catchy eh?
Most of the success at five of the top six has been based on sticking with the manager. Chelsea are the exception as you say, but they have unlimited funds to paper over the cracks.
It may well be our turn in the cycle but we need to be in a position to cash in if you'll excuse the pun by building on our current excellent squad which is showing the signs of settling down into a hardworking, skilful and confident squad.
And I mean 'settling down'. Don't lets disrupt everything again, please.
 

barry

Bring me Messi
May 22, 2005
6,505
15,345
Ferguson, Wenger and Harry are all in the same age bracket (OAP), so they might retire at similar times, which could put us back to square one. This would hopefully leave the door open for Everton and especially Villa and Man City. All three have young vibrant managers, and in Man City and Villa's case the money to back it up.
Saying that I think we'll be top three next season
 

VegasII

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2008
9,750
16,670
I think that could work.

Although the phrase 'Barack the manager' wouldn't seem too positive as it fits too well into our club's history of slating every gaffa.
 

Arnoldtoo

The thinking ape's ape
May 18, 2006
35,336
54,970
You're absolutely right that change will come, and that we need to be ready when it does. In fact the readier we make ourselves, the more likely that the change will come.

There are too many variables though to say what will initiate that change. Managerial change can work against a team, but it can also work in its favour. And while Harry is certain to stay for a while, he isn't going to be around for long enough to create a dynasty a la Wenger or Ferguson.

The money that is sloshing around the top of the league will have a significant effect on the average standard of the squads, and with ManC joining the rich league, things aren't going to get easier.

And other teams - Villa, Everton oviously - will be right there with us with the same aims in mind. It's not just the top 4 we need to be aware of.

But steady progress, maintaining the standards throughout the season - from game 1 - and pushing at the door of the top 4 is the only sensible way to go. You cannot create a team virtually from scratch, paying upper-mid-table wages, and expect to win the league in a year.
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
As CabinFever says, football is cyclical, although the domination of the EPl over the last decade or so by three, and then four, clubs is unprecedented. Everton's history since WWII closely mirrors our own—we've both spent more time in the top division than just about anyone else, we both had our most successful periods in the 60s and 80s followed by slumps in the 70s and 90s, we've both seen a resurgence in the 00s, we've both got fantastically irritating neighbours. Unlike Newcastle's, our supporters don't have to be in their mid-60s even to vaguely remember winning something worthwhile. It's odd and a little embarrassing to admit an affinity with Scousers, but there you have it.

Of course, if Everton were run with the same Instant Fix mentality as Spurs, Moyes would probably have been handed his P45 after his team's ignominious exit from both the CL and UC and subsequent dire start to the 2005-2006 league campaign. However, Kenwright had learned the lesson of buggering about with a merry-go-round of managers in the first 10 years or so of the EPL and stuck with his man. The result has been a steady consolidation of Everton's position as (just) the Best of the Rest. Perhaps Daniel Levy and certain Spurs fans should take note. A modest (and rather unexpected) degree of success went to many fans' heads, and unfortunately appears to have gone to DL's head too. There was a sudden clamour for 'the next level', a growing belief, born of what I have no idea, that Jol wasn't the man (or wasn't a sufficiently Big Name) to take us there, and next thing you know it's All Hail the Ramos Revolution. Just about everyone, including some who should have known a great deal better (like me, for instance), got totally carried away by all the excitement, particularly after the CC triumph, and ignored the fact that our league performances were nothing to scream about and were actually, with one or two notable exceptions, getting worse. And then Ramos proceeded to lose the plot and the dressing-room completely. Yes, we were heading for 'the next level' all right; it just wasn't the next level we all had in mind. Evolution, not revolution, was required, and maybe we should have thought about securing our foothold on the level we'd attained before attempting the next one.

It's just incredible to me in view of this that some SC members believe Harry should go at the end of the season (or at least were believing that some weeks ago). It's apparently essential that we have a Big Name Manager to match our Big Ambitions. No wonder Harry has to keep repeating his '2 points from 8 games' mantra. Perhaps he should expand that to 'less than a point a game from January to October', because there seems to be a body of opinion in total denial of how crap a manager Ramos was for us, Carling Cup excepted. Yes, what we need is more upheaval, it would seem.

Doubtless we'll be linked with umpteen players this summer (in fact we already have), but I'll be unhappy if we sign more than two or three. It's actually quite difficult to say even who those two or three should be. Do we really need a LM? Our back line is now one of the most solid in the EPL, and the only possible vacancy appears to be a back-up for BAE, although we do have Forgotten Man Bale. Can we coax another season out of Ledley? A world-class CM would be nice, but getting hold of one is a great deal easier said than done. We have four strikers capable of getting into double figures. Unless we can sign the likes of Villa or Eto'o, which we can't, are we going to seriously improve on any of them? I doubt it. I can see the appeal of a big No. 9 who's a serious aerial threat and can hold the ball up, but I'm not convinced his name is Kenwyne Jones. Mainly, we need to work with and improve what we've got. Is that such a hardship?
 

Paxtonite

Active Member
Nov 28, 2004
1,956
32
For once i seem to agree with SS57 :wink:. Less is more. We have capable squad players now that can come in and do a job like O'Hara, Bale, Hudd, Zokora, Dawson, Hutton, Chimbonds, Cudicini, Bentley etc.

The problem is going to be keeping them all content, so if the restlessness persists then they have to be moved on and replaced and therefore you will by default have the same turnover of players once more.

Its strange how players can go to a top four club and bide their time for selection and yet at any other club everyone demands a starting place. And herein lies Redknapp's greatest challenge. Changing the mindset and philosophy at the club to adopt a top four approach. If you want to be like them - act like them. And as soon as the players realise this and understand the merits of the "squad" then things will start to settle and we shall (it is hoped) start to see the stability we crave.

As for bringing players in, then considering we may lose a few, i'd say a left back, centre back and centre mid. That's it. Oh and let's not forget that we still have Bostock and Parrett to come through, whilst Gio, Taraabt and Gunter are all still all on loan, although i doubt we will be retaining their services to be fair.
 

nate247

Member
Jul 31, 2005
177
71
Does anybody here really believe that Harry Redknapp (the Rodney Trotter of the PL) won't have the cheque book out wheeling and dealing this summer?

If one thing is certain, it is that there "will" be wholesale changes yet again to our squad. However I do agree with the OP that stability is needed.

On a personal level I would like to see us play some more of our youth players toward the end of this season if possible (as I know some are out on loan).

Lets face it, we are safe and do we really need another half arsed attempt at Europe next season by finishing 7th? Less we not forget our most successful season under Jol was when we didn't have European Football to contend with.

Also, you never know. By playing some of these youngsters we might find our next star summer signing right under our noses.

I always thought Ramos should have adopted this policy when it was quite clear our players had switched off last year after our Carling Cup victory.

Lets face it, we all know what platers like King, Woodgate, BAE, Lennon, JJ, Keano etc bring to the team. We know what our core squad is, so why not play players like Bale, Bostock, OHara (along with calling a couple back from loan) and just see what they can do. Give Bentley a final fling of the dice as well. If nothing else it puts him in the shop window.

Just my two pennies worth anyway. However there will deffo be changes this summer yet again I reckon.
 

Lucky22

Active Member
Dec 11, 2006
710
160
I think not being in Europe this season may help overall, but I'd still like us to get in there as it will attract a higher calibre of players.

For a change, we have a settled manager and, more importantly, our key players won't be going anywhere in the summer. I think Redknapp was shrewd with his signings in January and those players have had time to bed in, particularly Palacios. I think we can build on the decent finish to the season and work on from there.

We won't be under too much pressure next term, so anything that happens will be realistically a bonus. We all know that stability is the key and I think we have found that (for a while at least!).
 

Boony

Active Member
Feb 24, 2004
1,475
0
I think not being in Europe this season may help overall, but I'd still like us to get in there as it will attract a higher calibre of players.

For a change, we have a settled manager and, more importantly, our key players won't be going anywhere in the summer. I think Redknapp was shrewd with his signings in January and those players have had time to bed in, particularly Palacios. I think we can build on the decent finish to the season and work on from there.

We won't be under too much pressure next term, so anything that happens will be realistically a bonus. We all know that stability is the key and I think we have found that (for a while at least!).

I dont think the Europa cup makes a difference as to whether a player joins a club or not. Its where the club are going moving forward which is important.
 

minesadouble

Drove my Chevy to the Levy
Jul 27, 2006
749
2,933
I'd like to see us appoint Gordon Brown as our manager. He'd quickly abolish boom and bust. He'd find billions to blow on a new stadium, advisers, numerous players and never have to repay our debt. In fact, we'd just borrow more. All our problems could be blamed on American bankers and we could hire dodgy PR-men to spread rumours about Fergie and Wenger. As well as managing Spurs, he'd save the world in his spare time. Now that's what I'd call a proper manager !
 

minesadouble

Drove my Chevy to the Levy
Jul 27, 2006
749
2,933
Being serious, I posted a column two years ago about "breaking into the top four". It was full of stats. The point being that in the 1960s 9 different teams won the Div 1 title. Each decade since, power has been concentrated amongst fewer and fewer clubs. We have a 'top 4' because there are 4 CL places. But are Arsenal really top 4 any more, in the sense of being level with Man U and Chelsea ? Are Liverpool ? In my view we have a 2+2 top 4, with the real clout concentrated in 2 Clubs, although Arsenal and Liverpool can beat the other 2 in games and even win a trophy.

I agree that the top 2 and next 2 may change positions, and maybe (just) either Everton, Villa, Man City or Spurs could break into the 4, but the overall trend of a greater and greater concentration of power has been going on for 50 years (coinciding with the £100 per week nationwide wages cap for players being abandoned). One Season doesn't change things. Power shifts take several years to become permanent. In future, if we have even more very rich owners playing 'monopoly-football' with premiership clubs, the trend towards concentration may eventually alter, but the barriers to entry into to the highest level are now extremely high.

In American football, the 'draft system' works actively against concentration of power by giving the club finishing last the first pick, and club finishing first the last pick (and so on), of all the best new young players each Season. This helps prevent the monotony of the same Franchises (Clubs) winning Season after Season. But in Europe and soccer the reverse applies; the top clubs in each country tend to have first pick of most of the best young talent, to help maintain their domination. But without a College football system it's hard to see how we could incorporate our own version of the draft.
 

JoeT

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2005
3,813
935
I think we are seeing right now how playing in a European competition, plus two cups and the league can put strain on even the strongest squad/club. Look at Man.U's recent F.A. Cup selection for example....made because their Manager feels the need to be competitive in other competitions.
Our current squad is - in terms of depth - not as strong as theirs.....forget this 'top 4' stuff, just strengthen a couple of areas and aim for a solid next season,with possibly playing some Euro-Cup football.
As far as our Managerial position goes....same thing; stay the course with H.R. Let him enjoy a less frenetic season with a settled squad and maybe he will stay on past his supposed 'sell date'. And as for those who were talking about getting rid of him; I will say now that I have stood by H.R. ever since he came...mainly because of the topic that is now being discussed: stability. For those that were for letting him go a while back; you never expected to be really taken seriously on here did you?
 

cabinfever

Cabinfever's blue and white army
May 14, 2004
1,931
2,013
It's not an attitude it's a slogan

Actually, I was in the States a few months ago and it is an attitude. They don't have the same doom and gloom attitude that we do on this side.
 
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