Team for Norwich...

[Lighty64]

What you seem to be Sloth, is a highlights pundit.

I guess if you have only watched MOTD you could say Alli's performances have been fantastic. If not then you are demonstrating a staggering level of misunderstanding of what you've been watching. I can't remember the last time Alli put in a fantastic performance. He was decent as a CM against Liverpool but was far from fantastic. He's been varying degrees of meh to pretty awful in the last couple of months - in terms of his overall performance.

What Alli is right now is a player capable of producing great moments but who is struggling to find a 90 minute role in a format that doesn't accommodate him very well, hence him being played in various positions from CM to ACM to last couple ALM.

What we have in Bentaleb is a player who proved over a whole season he consistently performs well for 90 minutes but produces the very odd bad moments. I would hope that as a 20yo they would decrease with experience, but even so, he is not alone, all our other midfielders make the same errors so I don't really understand why Bentaleb should be singled out, unless you are biased against him.

If we are going to play a 4231 then I want a central midfielder like Bentaleb in the CM2, not Alli or Dembele. I want a player who constantly shows for the ball, recycles the ball quickly and efficiently, is dynamic enough to do this for 90 minutes - especially if the other player in there is the more positionally disciplined Dier.

I am not saying that every minute of every 90 minutes we have been playing badly. Far from it. I am saying there are facets to our overall performance that I think can be improved. We need to move the ball quicker and more incisively from CM at times and we need to be able to control and recycle the ball more at others (like when we are leading in games). We could have very easily lost games against relatively weaker teams like Watford and Palace before we eventually won them. We did lose at home to Leicester. Only if you don't look past result and actually look at performance can you say everything has been fantastic.

If we are going to play 4231 then we have players (Eriksen, Lamela, Son, Chadli, Njie, Pritchard, Onomah) who can produce moments but also fit roles the attacking midfield format better. We have players like Mason, Bentaleb, Winks and on a good day Dembele who are all better central midfielders in a premiership CM2 than Alli is right now.

The way you portray Bentaleb as being virtually a total liability every time he plays and comparing my assessment to him with my assessment to Walker is ridiculous. Walker is a - relatively speaking - a footballer with low intellect who for the majority of his time with us hasn't defended any better than most RB's (and worse than many) in the EPL, continually wastes the vast majority of attacking situations and also makes diabolical, goal costing errors.

There were only 5 midfielders who saw more ball in games than Bentaleb last season and 4 of them are the best in the league (Matic, Fabregas, Yaya, Schniederlin). Only two of them gave the ball away less. Bentaleb isn't perfect, he has learning to do, we (those that rate him) all acknowledge this, but he was a 20yo having his first full season last year and was one of our most consistent performers, and one of the best box to box CM2 players in the league last year - unless you are only watching MOTD highlight reels of course. Surely logic says a kid with the temperament and intelligence to have got himself to being a mainstay in a top 5 team and consistently perform well there, has the potential to keep learning and improving ?

He dad a bad first game. I said so. He then got a bad injury and then another injury in his come back game. Bentaleb in all the games he's played hasn't had a game as 90 min bad as some of Alli's lately.

I repeat, I am not saying I would drop Alli, I would play a 433 and accommodate his skill set that way.

But just like last year with Chadli, or Yaya etc at ManC or Gerrard at Liverpool (remember when they demolished us at home - no Gerrard, but a 433 with Allen instead) or Real Madrid I don't believe that a team having all it's "moment" producers on the pitch at the same time is always the best recipe for balance, harmony or efficiency

I might not of seen us as much as you have last season, but since Bentalebs outstanding match v Arsenal last season, I haven't seen him reproduce anywhere near it since

I have highlighted your "quickly and efficiently" and I struggle with the efficiently part, every game he has featured that I have seen this season every errant pass has either cost us dearly or put our defence under pressure that wasn't there before his slack pass

pass v Man U, cost us

you mentioned in a post recently that we lost control in midfield v Stoke, funny how we got more over run and conceded 2 goals after he came on, and couldn't be bothered to chase down their midielder that crossed that led to the equaliser.

Everton, his only good game, not outstanding just good

Monaco started show boating, lost the ball and put us under pressure.

Leicester in the replay, a lazy pass put us under pressure, and the same again v Colchester put Deir under pressure

his overall passing stats might be very good, just a shame when he does a bad one, he does it that puts us under pressure, and doesn't chase back to try and correct the error. when Alli does he tries to win the ball back, also when Alli has a bad game, he still has the ability to be able to score. if Bentaleb has a bad day, he doesn't have goals in his locker to turn it around.

edit: having read the whole post, I do agree with your assessment of Walker

 

[Abdoujaparov]

Has Lamela lost his starting spot? I don't think he's done anything wrong, is it purely down to Son putting in a good shift the last few times he's played?

Lamela will always have the advantage that he's left footed and fits perfectly as a right-sided inverted winger.

The other side of the pitch is a lot more competitive: Eriksen, Chadli, Son and Pritchard.

Of course Poch does mix it up a little (and I reckon will pick Eriksen or Chadli on the right tonight), but if Lamela starts scoring like he did at Roma, I reckon he'll be a shoo-in for years to come.

 

[agrdavidsfan]

--------------Lloris--------------------
----------------------------------------
Walker--Dier--Alderweireld--Davies
--------------------------------------------
----------Dembele----Alli---------------
-------------------------------------------
Son----------Eriksen----------Chadli
------------------------------------------
---------------Kane--------------------

Subs : Vorm,Wimmer,Bentaleb,Lamela,Carroll,Onomah/Rose

I actually think he will go for this tonight sadly, would love wimmer to be given a chance though!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I might not of seen us as much as you have last season, but since Bentalebs outstanding match v Arsenal last season, I haven't seen him reproduce anywhere near it since

I have highlighted your "quickly and efficiently" and I struggle with the efficiently part, every game he has featured that I have seen this season every errant pass has either cost us dearly or put our defence under pressure that wasn't there before his slack pass

pass v Man U, cost us

you mentioned in a post recently that we lost control in midfield v Stoke, funny how we got more over run and conceded 2 goals after he came on, and couldn't be bothered to chase down their midielder that crossed that led to the equaliser.

Everton, his only good game, not outstanding just good

Monaco started show boating, lost the ball and put us under pressure.

Leicester in the replay, a lazy pass put us under pressure, and the same again v Colchester put Deir under pressure

his overall passing stats might be very good, just a shame when he does a bad one, he does it that puts us under pressure, and doesn't chase back to try and correct the error. when Alli does he tries to win the ball back, also when Alli has a bad game, he still has the ability to be able to score. if Bentaleb has a bad day, he doesn't have goals in his locker to turn it around.

edit: having read the whole post, I do agree with your assessment of Walker

Dier has made several similar bad passes in bad areas, including one equally as bad as Bentaleb in the same ManU game, plus ones in the games against Stoke a week later and a few more since including last week in the cup game, as did Dembele a fortnight ago in a league game.

I'm not saying Bentaleb doesn't do it, but I don't understand why he's being singled out for special criticism for it when all the others do it as well, only the others don't also see as much of the ball as Bentaleb.

The thing about Monaco showboating, he tried to do something tricky, maybe it was a youthful gamble he shouldn't have taken but isn't like he spent the whole game doing Cruyff turns etc. It was one moment.

If we are going to pick "moments" that all of our players don't quite make the right decision and weigh them in against the moments they do, then I'd wager Bentaleb's percentage of "bad moment" will be less than most in the team. The front four are forever fucking away possession, good situations and chances with their carelessness. Alli gives the ball away much more than Bentaleb does as a CM.

I think Bentaleb and Mason's performances were far more consistent than those around them last season. What we didn't see was that level of consistency from the front four or back four.

 

[Lighty64]

Dier has made several similar bad passes in bad areas, including one equally as bad as Bentaleb in the same ManU game, plus ones in the games against Stoke a week later and a few more since including last week in the cup game, as did Dembele a fortnight ago in a league game.

I'm not saying Bentaleb doesn't do it, but I don't understand why he's being singled out for special criticism for it when all the others do it as well, only the others don't also see as much of the ball as Bentaleb.

The thing about Monaco showboating, he tried to do something tricky, maybe it was a youthful gamble he shouldn't have taken but isn't like he spent the whole game doing Cruyff turns etc. It was one moment.

If we are going to pick "moments" that all of our players don't quite make the right decision and weigh them in against the moments they do, then I'd wager Bentaleb's percentage of "bad moment" will be less than most in the team. The front four are forever fucking away possession, good situations and chances with their carelessness. Alli gives the ball away much more than Bentaleb does as a CM.

I think Bentaleb and Mason's performances were far more consistent than those around them last season. What we didn't see was that level of consistency from the front four or back four.

the difference is, I never seem to see him bust a gut to try and correct it.

when I mentioned in another thread about the goals we conceded last season was due to the amount of possession lost last season by our front 4, I decided not bothering to argue. we never defended enough obviously, but this season we have turned that around, but we can't have players that don't fully focus on what Poch wants, and if you give the ball away, you got to expect them to try and win it back.

with Dier I have only seen him have 2 really bad games, possibly the Man U game was just bad, against Newcastle, and I don't think he looked too good away to Watford playing a totally different role.

Diers passing is average to Bentaleb's, but his defending makes Bentaleb look average (IMO).

the trouble is if your going to be a box to box midfielder, you need to add goals and assist to your game, and that's what Alli has over Bentaleb

edit again: I like Mason, just hope he can start doing it over 90mins and not be subbed in the 60th+

 

[SPURSFANfrance]

the difference is, I never seem to see him bust a gut to try and correct it.

when I mentioned in another thread about the goals we conceded last season was due to the amount of possession lost last season by our front 4, I decided not bothering to argue. we never defended enough obviously, but this season we have turned that around, but we can't have players that don't fully focus on what Poch wants, and if you give the ball away, you got to expect them to try and win it back.

with Dier I have only seen him have 2 really bad games, possibly the Man U game was just bad, against Newcastle, and I don't think he looked too good away to Watford playing a totally different role.

Diers passing is average to Bentaleb's, but his defending makes Bentaleb look average (IMO).

the trouble is if your going to be a box to box midfielder, you need to add goals and assist to your game, and that's what Alli has over Bentaleb

edit again: I like Mason, just hope he can start doing it over 90mins and not be subbed in the 60th+

Stop comparing Nabil to Alli;

Alli is always in the box, Nabil is nearly a CB! It's easy to stay in the front and wait for the ball!

Don't forget Dier was trained as a defender his whole life whereas Nabil was trained offensively.

The problem is poch who stuck him as CDM!

 

[talkshowhost86]

Dier has made several similar bad passes in bad areas, including one equally as bad as Bentaleb in the same ManU game, plus ones in the games against Stoke a week later and a few more since including last week in the cup game, as did Dembele a fortnight ago in a league game.

I'm not saying Bentaleb doesn't do it, but I don't understand why he's being singled out for special criticism for it when all the others do it as well, only the others don't also see as much of the ball as Bentaleb.

The thing about Monaco showboating, he tried to do something tricky, maybe it was a youthful gamble he shouldn't have taken but isn't like he spent the whole game doing Cruyff turns etc. It was one moment.

If we are going to pick "moments" that all of our players don't quite make the right decision and weigh them in against the moments they do, then I'd wager Bentaleb's percentage of "bad moment" will be less than most in the team. The front four are forever fucking away possession, good situations and chances with their carelessness. Alli gives the ball away much more than Bentaleb does as a CM.

I think Bentaleb and Mason's performances were far more consistent than those around them last season. What we didn't see was that level of consistency from the front four or back four.

Bentaleb's failings are perhaps highlighted more because it's harder to see the plus points that offset those bad moments.

Whilst Dier, Dembele and Alli do make errors, at the same time Dier offers an obvious defensive stability, Dembele can drive the team forwards (and often does so) and the positives Alli adds are obvious for all to see.

I'm not quite sure what Bentaleb offers compared to those three. Mason, in his few appearances this season and when we were having problems in midfield last season, showed that he can contribute a lot going forwards, and whilst I'm not convinced entirely by Carroll, he seems to at least continuously try and move the ball forwards and is even getting the odd goal.

I'm just not sure we can say Bentaleb provides any of those elements at the moment. That's probably why he gets chewed out more for his mistakes.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

the difference is, I never seem to see him bust a gut to try and correct it.

when I mentioned in another thread about the goals we conceded last season was due to the amount of possession lost last season by our front 4, I decided not bothering to argue. we never defended enough obviously, but this season we have turned that around, but we can't have players that don't fully focus on what Poch wants, and if you give the ball away, you got to expect them to try and win it back.

with Dier I have only seen him have 2 really bad games, possibly the Man U game was just bad, against Newcastle, and I don't think he looked too good away to Watford playing a totally different role.

Diers passing is average to Bentaleb's, but his defending makes Bentaleb look average (IMO).

the trouble is if your going to be a box to box midfielder, you need to add goals and assist to your game, and that's what Alli has over Bentaleb

edit again: I like Mason, just hope he can start doing it over 90mins and not be subbed in the 60th+

Bust a gut to try and correct what ? The odd bad pass ? That's not about not busting a gut, it's about concentration and experience. You cannot question Bentaleb's effort, getting on the ball as often as he does takes high levels of energy and effort. He needs educating, but I would expect that in a 20yo, wouldn't you ?

Juve don't play Pogba in a CM2, and he is incredibly talented and sees more ball than Alli, because they know there would be a compromise, so why the hell is it so crazy to say Alli isn't right in a CM2 ?

Yaya Toure is far more talented than Alli (right now) and most would agree that City are continually paying the price for trying to accommodate him in a CM2.

I think player like these (and Lampard and Gerrard) are much better in 433's.

 

[Lighty64]

Stop comparing Nabil to Alli;

Alli is always in the box, Nabil is nearly a CB! It's easy to stay in the front and wait for the ball!

Don't forget Dier was trained as a defender his whole life whereas Nabil was trained offensively.

The problem is poch who stuck him as CDM!

when someone suggest resting Alli with Bentaleb as the replacement that's when someone compares.

you say "Nabil is nearly a CB", I wouldn't play Nabil as a CB if you paid me too, you then say "he was trained offensively", but he lacks assist and goals.

so please tell me his best attributes?

 

[Lighty64]

Bust a gut to try and correct what ? The odd bad pass ? That's not about not busting a gut, it's about concentration and experience. You cannot question Bentaleb's effort, getting on the ball as often as he does takes high levels of energy and effort. He needs educating, but I would expect that in a 20yo, wouldn't you ?

Juve don't play Pogba in a CM2, and he is incredibly talented and sees more ball than Alli, because they know there would be a compromise, so why the hell is it so crazy to say Alli isn't right in a CM2 ?

Yaya Toure is far more talented than Alli (right now) and most would agree that City are continually paying the price for trying to accommodate him in a CM2.

I think player like these (and Lampard and Gerrard) are much better in 433's.

he made a bad pass v Man U, he as good as stood and watched them go up and score, he wasn't that far from the player he miss passed it too.

against Stoke same again, as good as watched the play progress instead of trying to do something, to stop the attack.

whatever he does well doesn't stand out enough as TSH has said above.

you mentioned earlier he turns the ball over quicker, yet at the start of last season our build up was as slow as it was under AVB.

last season him and Mason did do a good job, but this season everyone + Dier have done a better job. if Bentaleb proves me wrong ill be very happy to accept being wrong, but an 80 + % passing accuracy only holds good if more than 2 or 3 assist come from it, and the 10 odd% that goes wrong don't cost stupid goals

 

[SPURSFANfrance]

when someone suggest resting Alli with Bentaleb as the replacement that's when someone compares.

you say "Nabil is nearly a CB", I wouldn't play Nabil as a CB if you paid me too, you then say "he was trained offensively", but he lacks assist and goals.

so please tell me his best attributes?

I said that he is nearly pushed as CB we saw it at the game against Colchester.

I repeat he was trained offensively when he was young


He doesn't play forward how do you think he could score and assist

When Carroll or Mason or dembélé go forward Nabil has to stay behind

in your opinion why these light players except dembélé, play more offensive then Nabil?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Bentaleb's failings are perhaps highlighted more because it's harder to see the plus points that offset those bad moments.

Whilst Dier, Dembele and Alli do make errors, at the same time Dier offers an obvious defensive stability, Dembele can drive the team forwards (and often does so) and the positives Alli adds are obvious for all to see.

I'm not quite sure what Bentaleb offers compared to those three. Mason, in his few appearances this season and when we were having problems in midfield last season, showed that he can contribute a lot going forwards, and whilst I'm not convinced entirely by Carroll, he seems to at least continuously try and move the ball forwards and is even getting the odd goal.

I'm just not sure we can say Bentaleb provides any of those elements at the moment. That's probably why he gets chewed out more for his mistakes.

But retaining and recycling the ball is a defensive as well as an offensive quality. I'm not even arguing for Bentaleb instead of Dier. I think if Dier plays though - he has to have have a player who moves the ball quicker than Dembele next to him. I don't buy the "Dembele drives us forward" line at all. When in CM, mostly Dembele drives us sideways and very ponderously at that. If you compare Bentaleb's and Mason's stats for last season (where they were regulars and there is a better sample) with Alli, Dier and Dembele's for this, Bentaleb gets through much more ball than any of them, makes 25 more successful passes per game than Alli for example. He makes nearly double the forward passes Alli does, 9 more per 90min than Dembele. Here's a comparison matrix:

Bentaleb also actually tackles and intercepts more than Dier. Now, I acknowledge that Bentaleb may not be as positionally disciplined as Dier and tackling and interception stats don't tell a whole story, there's the where and how etc. But I actually think most people don't appreciate Bentaleb's all roundness. I think if given time and tuition we have potentially a CM as good or better than Schniederlin in terms of all round capability, especially in a CM2.

I haven't included creative stats like assists, chances created and goals because Alli and Dembele have both played as AM's and it would be very skewed and wouldn't dream of considering bentaleb for a role further forward.

What I think is that if we are going to play a 4231, then if you include Alli you are clearly sacrificing a lot of control of the ball. If you play either Alli or Dembele you are moving the ball forwards slower and forwards much less.

For me the choices the best balance for defensive quality, ball retention, quick transition, vertical transition are a combination of Mason, Dier and Bentaleb in a CM2.

This issue is very much a CM2 issue IMO. It is something that people continually under estimate and struggle with even at the highest level. You have Pellegrini making a pigs ear of what should be an easy league win because he can't figure out how to accommodate Yaya into a CM2 system. Real Madrid have been outperformed by Barca and Atletico in recent seasons because they think it's better to have the "more talented" players in midfield than a more harmonious, functional blend.

Yaya, Pogba, Kroos, Modric, Gerrad, all supremely talented footballs that are/have been compromises in CM2's.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

he made a bad pass v Man U, he as good as stood and watched them go up and score, he wasn't that far from the player he miss passed it too.

against Stoke same again, as good as watched the play progress instead of trying to do something, to stop the attack.

whatever he does well doesn't stand out enough as TSH has said above.

you mentioned earlier he turns the ball over quicker, yet at the start of last season our build up was as slow as it was under AVB.

last season him and Mason did do a good job, but this season everyone + Dier have done a better job. if Bentaleb proves me wrong ill be very happy to accept being wrong, but an 80 + % passing accuracy only holds good if more than 2 or 3 assist come from it, and the 10 odd% that goes wrong don't cost stupid goals

What did Didier Deschamps ever do that stood out ? Marchisio at Juve ?

To my knowledge he's made one mistake that has directly led to a goal in two seasons and 1700 passes. Even if it's 2 goals that's more like 0.001%.

I think if we pair Bentaleb with Dier we will have the best combination of tenacity, solidity, dynamism, ball retention, quick transition, forward transition.

Alli doesn't even get close to Bentaleb as a CM in a CM2, it's a no contest. One great goal does not make him a good CM in a CM2. There is so much more to the role that Bentaleb brings than Alli doesn't get near to bringing.

As a partner for Dier I can entertain the idea of Dembele, Mason and Carroll but I still think that Bentaleb has the best balance for the system, because we play 4 attacking players ahead of them. One of them could be Dembele (or Mason or carroll) as well.

 

[Grapo2001]

nbc still talking about 'the big 5', which they include Liverpool in. Ridiculous

 

[talkshowhost86]

This issue is very much a CM2 issue IMO. It is something that people continually under estimate and struggle with even at the highest level. You have Pellegrini making a pigs ear of what should be an easy league win because he can't figure out how to accommodate Yaya into a CM2 system. Real Madrid have been outperformed by Barca and Atletico in recent seasons because they think it's better to have the "more talented" players in midfield than a more harmonious, functional blend.

To start with I think with Dier, Dembele and Alli it acts more like a midfield 3 in any case, and as for the comparisons to teams making mistakes...we're surely not doing that?

We're not conceding many, we're scoring plenty, and the majority of that, regardless of the stats, has been done with Alli and Dembele playing.

 

[jasswolf]

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?goto/post&id=4938922#post-4938922

Had the exact squad, just didn't think Eriksen would get the start. Like I said they're porous as fuck and we've scored in the second minute and immediately forced a corner after the restart.

Thanks to some for talking me down when I offered some alternative plans and options though.

EDIT: Just realised it was the 'sports science' dickhead at it again; mate, please go get a B.Sci and realise what an idiot you sound like, thanks.

 

[Lighty64]

I said that he is nearly pushed as CB we saw it at the game against Colchester.

I repeat he was trained offensively when he was young


He doesn't play forward how do you think he could score and assist

When Carroll or Mason or dembélé go forward Nabil has to stay behind

in your opinion why these light players except dembélé, play more offensive then Nabil?

and last season proved however good his stats show, we conceded a hell of a lot more goals. This season on his limited amount of performances he hasn't been good enough compared to the others that have played that role.

Yes we have a better defence now with Toby in the team, but until he can prove he is better than Dembele or Alli, and Mason then he doesn't deserve a starting place.

Please understand none of us know the commitment he shows in training, or how he performs in the practice matches.

We all have our own opinions on players, and obviously your good self and others have a differing to this old git typing the reply

 

[Lighty64]

What did Didier Deschamps ever do that stood out ? Marchisio at Juve ?

To my knowledge he's made one mistake that has directly led to a goal in two seasons and 1700 passes. Even if it's 2 goals that's more like 0.001%.

I think if we pair Bentaleb with Dier we will have the best combination of tenacity, solidity, dynamism, ball retention, quick transition, forward transition.

Alli doesn't even get close to Bentaleb as a CM in a CM2, it's a no contest. One great goal does not make him a good CM in a CM2. There is so much more to the role that Bentaleb brings than Alli doesn't get near to bringing.

As a partner for Dier I can entertain the idea of Dembele, Mason and Carroll but I still think that Bentaleb has the best balance for the system, because we play 4 attacking players ahead of them. One of them could be Dembele (or Mason or carroll) as well.

To save me re typing the same, please read the above lol

 

[Bus-Conductor]

To save me re typing the same, please read the above lol

Alli didn't play as a CM last night.

 

[Lighty64]

Alli didn't play as a CM last night.

apologies my statement about Bentaleb v Alli was inclusion. the 6 games Alli has paired up with Dier they have done well.