The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[wadewill]

To me, these people that say they won't support the club if we move are being a bit narrow minded and childish.

Do you want a club that is going to win things, or do you want to stay in Tottenham where I can imagine very few of you are from and even fewer now live.

The club would not even be considering this move if it didn't make huge financial sense, it will cost too much and set us back years if we redevelop the lane.

People needs to realise football is modern, it's no longer a tribal thing where people support the clubs nearest to them.

And it's and 20 minute drive... with traffic.

It's not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but I think it's needed for the club to really really progress.

 

[PaxtonMuttley]

Two years ago the club increased the number of season tickets available in the ground by 1,500.

Last year, there was a fair number of non-renewals, I presume due to financial reasons.

So entirely feasible that your mate could move 4,000 places in two seasons.

But you are correct when you say the waiting list is not 25,000 - the last figure quoted was closer to 34,000.

Without wanting to be a pedant I actually said the waiting list was 25k+ but i take ur point. :bowdown:

My worry is we're going to move to a stadium on the premise that there are 34k people (at the last quote) 'waiting' to fill seats when in actual fact there are not. And indeed how many genuinely waiting will be put off by a trip across town.

As I understand it every member is put on the waiting list whether they ask to be or not. My nephews are on the list and they are 5 & 2 and they are unlikely to want there season for quite some time (though you'll be glad to hear they both recognise the 'spur bird' when they see!).

Please don't misunderstand my point, if i thought moving to stratford was the best thing for the club i would back it 100% but i just don't see it working, i really don't.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Without wanting to be a pedant I actually said the waiting list was 25k+ but i take ur point. :bowdown:

My worry is we're going to move to a stadium on the premise that there are 34k people (at the last quote) 'waiting' to fill seats when in actual fact there are not. And indeed how many genuinely waiting will be put off by a trip across town.

As I understand it every member is put on the waiting list whether they ask to be or not. My nephews are on the list and they are 5 & 2 and they are unlikely to want there season for quite some time (though you'll be glad to hear they both recognise the 'spur bird' when they see!).

Please don't misunderstand my point, if i thought moving to stratford was the best thing for the club i would back it 100% but i just don't see it working, i really don't.

Financially they don't really care whether they sell all the season tickets. I'm sorry to shatter people's illusions but having looked at a proposal for an equivalent stadium financing I can tell you that these new stadia stand or fall on sales of the middle corporate layer, not just boxes but other seats in the middle layer. This "Club Wembley" layer accounts for approximately 75% of total stadium revenues. There is no doubting that being on the doorstep of Docklands would help corporate sales immeasurably. I'm not saying that is desirable for us as ordinary fans but it is the reality of stadium finance.

 

[MattyP]

Without wanting to be a pedant I actually said the waiting list was 25k+ but i take ur point. :bowdown:

My worry is we're going to move to a stadium on the premise that there are 34k people (at the last quote) 'waiting' to fill seats when in actual fact there are not. And indeed how many genuinely waiting will be put off by a trip across town.

As I understand it every member is put on the waiting list whether they ask to be or not. My nephews are on the list and they are 5 & 2 and they are unlikely to want there season for quite some time (though you'll be glad to hear they both recognise the 'spur bird' when they see!).

Please don't misunderstand my point, if i thought moving to stratford was the best thing for the club i would back it 100% but i just don't see it working, i really don't.

Think everyone becomes a lilywhite member automatically, which doesn't place you the waiting list, if you want to be on the list you have to upgrade to bronze which will cost you a fiver each year, if memory serves me correctly.

But I absolutely take your point, and there is a legitimate concern, even for the NDP, that extending capacity means that it is so easy to get a ticket for pretty much every game that existing season ticket holders don't renew, let alone anyone on the waiting list actually takes up one.

I suspect the club will be forced into giving schools etc some tickets for the less attractive fixtures in order to boost attendance. I've absolutely no issue with that, in fact I think it's a great idea as it could help get the next generation of Spurs fans on board early.

 

[PaxtonMuttley]

To me, these people that say they won't support the club if we move are being a bit narrow minded and childish.

Do you want a club that is going to win things, or do you want to stay in Tottenham where I can imagine very few of you are from and even fewer now live.

The club would not even be considering this move if it didn't make huge financial sense, it will cost too much and set us back years if we redevelop the lane.

People needs to realise football is modern, it's no longer a tribal thing where people support the clubs nearest to them.

And it's and 20 minute drive... with traffic.

It's not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but I think it's needed for the club to really really progress.

Surely this view point can only be true in London, with so many clubs and people moving from around the country to London for jobs etc.

I fail to believe there are many scousers or geordies or brummies or mancs etc who support anyone other than the team up the road...

I go back to my previous point tho, IMO we have little chance getting the OS so it's all a bit of a moot point really...

 

[spursphil]

We are paying £450m not just for a stadium, but the whole development, including a supermarket, a hotel, accomodation, a museum, a shop, renovating the pub, the red house, somewhere for the Tottenham Hotspur foundation to call home.

I know that mate. The emirates development was not just the stadium either, they built 680 flats at Highbury Square, as well as other buildings and workshops in Queensland road. And who knows what else. The cost of our development seems very expensive to me.

 

[PaxtonMuttley]

Financially they don't really care whether they sell all the season tickets. I'm sorry to shatter people's illusions but having looked at a proposal for an equivalent stadium financing I can tell you that these new stadia stand or fall on sales of the middle corporate layer, not just boxes but other seats in the middle layer. This "Club Wembley" layer accounts for approximately 75% of total stadium revenues. There is no doubting that being on the doorstep of Docklands would help corporate sales immeasurably. I'm not saying that is desirable for us as ordinary fans but it is the reality of stadium finance.

And with that point i'm fairly sure you've hit the nail on the head!!

I dare say when the club fails with the OS bid a huge FOR SALE board will go up on the High Road..''One Top 5 Premiership football club for sale with planning permission for a 60k seater stadium''...

I've little more to add on the subject but i need to keep positing as i've just seen my status has risen to Paolo Tramezzani and i can't bear the shame...mg:

 

[MattyP]

I know that mate. The emirates development was not just the stadium either, they built 680 flats at Highbury Square, as well as other buildings and workshops in Queensland road. And who knows what else. The cost of our development seems very expensive to me.

The Emirates stadium project cost £390m, including costs of the associated infrastructure, a new waste and recycling centre and relocation of businesses.

The development of Highbury into flats cost an additional £150m.

So, their overall scheme came in at £540m, our proposal at £450m.

Both are a shit load of money. The additional 500 flats for the gooners development is a significant financial disadvantage to us, for which I believe CABE were the main culprits at voicing their objection to our original 434 flats, down to about 200 in version two of the planning application.

 

[wadewill]

PaxtonMutley, which makes the point of us moving 10-15 miles such a big deal. It wouldn't be if we were in a smaller city and moving just outside like so many clubs have in recent years. Tottenham is a town...

And I really have a feeling we will get it. I think it's too risky going with West Ham, they are a club run by idiots on the brink of falling out of the Orem, the support is nothing that ours is. Nobody in this country cares about athletics, it will be a nothing stadium if west ham move in and it will be terribly run.

What use will that get from a Championship club.

 

[spursphil]

The Emirates stadium project cost £390m, including costs of the associated infrastructure, a new waste and recycling centre and relocation of businesses.

The development of Highbury into flats cost an additional £150m.

So, their overall scheme came in at £540m, our proposal at £450m.

Both are a shit load of money. The additional 500 flats for the gooners development is a significant financial disadvantage to us, for which I believe CABE were the main culprits at voicing their objection to our original 434 flats, down to about 200 in version two of the planning application.

Cheers for those figures, combined for two stadiums plus add on of course, a cool £BILLION. Unreal.

 

[SpurSince57]

Financially they don't really care whether they sell all the season tickets. I'm sorry to shatter people's illusions but having looked at a proposal for an equivalent stadium financing I can tell you that these new stadia stand or fall on sales of the middle corporate layer, not just boxes but other seats in the middle layer. This "Club Wembley" layer accounts for approximately 75% of total stadium revenues. There is no doubting that being on the doorstep of Docklands would help corporate sales immeasurably. I'm not saying that is desirable for us as ordinary fans but it is the reality of stadium finance.

As long, that is, as demand always succeeds supply. Once we cash cows realise we don't need to buy a season ticket in order to guarantee a seat, we'll stop buying them because we know we'll be able to roll up on the afternoon, just like we did in the good old days. Make no mistake, that 56,000 capacity will have been very carefully calculated, and the fact that it dovetails very happily with what the police and other parties believe is the safe maximum is most likely a happy coincidence; it's almost certainly also the optimum figure that guarantees a full or nearly-full stadium for the majority of games. Probably we could hit 70,000 for the North London Derby (except that it won't be the North London Derby any more if we move to Stratford, will it?), but against Wigan, say?

You have to be pretty naive or delusional if you believe any sport can cope without the corporate sector. I think you're overplaying the importance of Stratford's proximity to Canary Wharf, though. Do the red braces brigade work on Saturdays and Sundays?

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

As long, that is, as demand always succeeds supply. Once we cash cows realise we don't need to buy a season ticket in order to guarantee a seat, we'll stop buying them because we know we'll be able to roll up on the afternoon, just like we did in the good old days. Make no mistake, that 56,000 capacity will have been very carefully calculated, and the fact that it dovetails very happily with what the police and other parties believe is the safe maximum is most likely a happy coincidence; it's almost certainly also the optimum figure that guarantees a full or nearly-full stadium for the majority of games. Probably we could hit 70,000 for the North London Derby (except that it won't be the North London Derby any more if we move to Stratford, will it?), but against Wigan, say?

You have to be pretty naive or delusional if you believe any sport can cope without the corporate sector. I think you're overplaying the importance of Stratford's proximity to Canary Wharf, though. Do the red braces brigade work on Saturdays and Sundays?

CL is midweek :wink:

 

[PaxtonMuttley]

PaxtonMutley, which makes the point of us moving 10-15 miles such a big deal. It wouldn't be if we were in a smaller city and moving just outside like so many clubs have in recent years. Tottenham is a town...

And I really have a feeling we will get it. I think it's too risky going with West Ham, they are a club run by idiots on the brink of falling out of the Orem, the support is nothing that ours is. Nobody in this country cares about athletics, it will be a nothing stadium if west ham move in and it will be terribly run.

What use will that get from a Championship club.

I take your point on the spammers entirely but i come back to the point that the legacy committee surely can't look favourably on our 'legacy' being 'we're gonna knock down ur cr4p stadium and build our own'

Plus with Palace suddenly throwing their hat in the ring for the old athletic stadium that could knacker our other 'legacy' idea of re-developing that...

 

[SpurSince57]

PaxtonMutley, which makes the point of us moving 10-15 miles such a big deal. It wouldn't be if we were in a smaller city and moving just outside like so many clubs have in recent years. Tottenham is a town...

And I really have a feeling we will get it. I think it's too risky going with West Ham, they are a club run by idiots on the brink of falling out of the Orem, the support is nothing that ours is. Nobody in this country cares about athletics, it will be a nothing stadium if west ham move in and it will be terribly run.

What use will that get from a Championship club.

Actually, it's about six miles as the crow flies, although I get the impression it could be sixty as far as some on here are concerned. But on the point that Tottenham is a town, yes, from the population point of view it's a pretty substantial one, almost 110,000 souls in the 2001 census; Haringey's population was 226,000, which puts it in the same bracket as Stoke, Derby and Portsmouth.

'Nobody in this country cares about athletics.' Really?

If you want to be taken seriously, stow this infantile shit.

 

[sloth]

You do realise the slogan is "Say no to Stratford", as opposed to "Just say no"?

You do also realise there's an alternative slogan "Say yes to Tottenham", in support of the NDP:shrug:

I should have quoted I suppose, but was writing in response to this from JJ...

Just as it seems that we are on the cusp of doing great things, and doing it in the right way, not buying our way to success with some mercenaries playing for some billionaire playboy who doesnt know or care about the club, moving to Stratford would undermine all of that. It really would be a tragedy and people will realise it when it's too late.

JUST SAY NO!!

 

[MattyP]

I should have quoted I suppose, but was writing in response to this from JJ...

Ah, okay, I understand. Maybe he was just trying to relate to the inhabitants of East London who probably know the "just say no" slogan from their habitual drug abuse :wink:

Joking, joking.

 

[roosh]

Anyone who thinks the alleged differential between the two options will be ploughed into the team I think is sadly mistaken.

Some of it might, but not the whole wedge.

I'll take staying in N17 all the time thanks.

I don't think anyone believes the difference will be ploughed into the team, not least bcos the difference will be in the form of debt. The cost of servicing that debt, however, most certainly will be coming from the resources that affect the money spent on players and wages.

Also, any potential increases in revenue will faciltate a bigger transfer budget and a higher wage ceiling.

 

[bigturnip]

any potential increases in revenue will faciltate a bigger transfer budget and a higher wage ceiling.

Or a bigger dividend.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Someone talking sense on another spurs site............

A few seasons ago Tottenham Hotspur proudly celebrated 125 years of history. In 8 days time a decision will be taken that could shape its destiny for the next 125. It will be taken behind closed doors, by people eminent no doubt in their field but who are wholly unknown to the the public, who have little interest in football and none whatsoever in the future well-being of our club. The closest we get to a football man is the former managing director of Arsenal. Certainly no one has bothered to ask the fans.
The news that the Spurs board wanted to move to the Olympic site at Stratford seeped out gradually in the weeks before Christmas. There’s never been any formal announcement or acknowledgement. However, the detailed plans that were published as part of the bidding process for the post-2012 use of the Olympic Park indicated that far from this being a back-up should the redevelopment next door to White Hart Lane fall through, in fact the club had invested tens of millions in preparatory work. Moreover in AEG they had forged an unholy alliance with a major player in the leisure industry, for whom failure was not an option.
At the time, this caused a great deal of interest, or so I thought. Daniel Levy shrewdly kept a low profile but suddenly previously reticent board members like Sir Keith Mills were available to the media, talking up the possibilities of the site and as a secondary consideration mentioning that it represented a cost-effective option for Spurs. Other former members of the Olympic bidding process were co-opted to posts at the club.
TOMM signalled the dangers under the emotive headline: ‘Betrayal’. I make no apologies – football exercises my emotions like nothing else on this earth. However, the news did not spread amongst either Spurs fans or the public at large until two weeks ago. Despite regular dire warnings from the West Ham board, especially the media-savvy Karren Brady, it was the unlikely figure of the architect who has led Spurs’ design programme who put the cat amongst the pigeons. The media suddenly awoke to the consequences of the Spurs bid – the Olympic Stadium, the pride of Britain in 2012, was due for demolition. No athletics track either.
The fans picked up the mood too. Jolted forcibly out of their complacency, few were now able to claim that this was the Levy fall-back position. I was surprised and dismayed that so few Spurs supporters were unaware of the news but it has sent shockwaves through our worldwide community. It’s fair to say that by no means all the fans agree with my view that we should not move to Stratford, but complacency is no longer an option. Take a look, if you are brave enough, at the comments section of my previous piece on the stadium. Leaving aside the cyberwarrior bluster it reveals deep divisions not only in the debate around should we stay or should we go but also about the fundamental question of what it means to be a Spurs fan.
The fans are the heart and soul of the club. We were there 125 years ago, we’re here now and we will be here for as long as our team pulls on the white shirt. Players and chairmen come and go, we hand down the white shirt to our children and grandchildren.
Yet when it comes to this most momentous of decisions, we are the very last people to be consulted. We turn up through rain and shine, good times and bad, we pay our money and pay the wages. Right now, we don’t exist.
In stark contrast, the club were falling over themselves to consult during the planning process for the new stadium in N17, otherwise known as the Northumberland Development Project. I quote from the club website, as they worked towards the new stadium:
“ The previous application received strong backing from the local community and fans alike – with over 800 letters of support sent to Haringey Council from individuals, groups and businesses. The changes made directly reflect the Club’s desire to find the very best solution for the Club and the locality – and are the culmination of consultation and discussion with the Government’s Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (CABE), English Heritage and other agencies as part of our desire to appeal to the widest possible audience.”
Fans were encouraged to contact Haringey Council. Local people and businesses were roped in. There was an online consultation exercise. They needed us then. Now, our opinions have no effect on the decision-takers. We have no value for the club, hence the deathly silence.
While I’m at it, here’s another quote, again from the club website:
A Flagship for Regeneration
All successful regeneration projects start with a single high profile ‘anchor’ scheme. The Northumberland Development Project represents an investment of hundreds of millions of pounds into North Tottenham and we believe has the potential to be a flagship for the wider regeneration of the area – attracting additional investment and securing significant benefits for the local community:
An even greater ability for the Tottenham Hotspur Foundation to address key social and community issues.
• World-class design which people will be proud to live near and visit.
• New affordable housing, both for rent and for key workers such as nurses and teachers.
• A significant investment in North Tottenham with a comprehensive scheme, not just a stadium.
Remembering our History
• The Club recognises the importance of remembering our history as a part of the new plans.
• We have the opportunity to re-house and re-locate key items which reflect and celebrate our proud history in Tottenham.
• We shall look to celebrate our past, display our memorabilia in a worthy environment and retain much of that which fans hold dear.
• This will be achieved both in the fabric of the buildings, in the new Club Museum and within the public spaces including the public square and lower courtyard.
• We intend to locate the famous Bill Nicholson Gates between the former White Hart pub and the Red House, which is the location of the current Bill Nicholson Way.
• We plan to put the famous cockerel, currently in our Club reception, on a plinth outside Warmington House as one of the first visible symbols fans will see as they approach from Seven Sisters.
• The old Club Board Room on the first floor of the Red House will be protected and retained and consideration given to bringing it back into use for appropriate Club meetings and Museum activities.
• We are also looking at how we decorate the gates and structures outside the stadium on the High Road and what other public art we commission across the site.
• We have established a Heritage Group which will consult on this work.
What price history and regeneration now? Literally: it has no value therefore our heritage is consigned to the dustbin, vacant rhetoric that has served its purpose and is now discarded.
Levy apparently lacks the courage to appear in public to discuss his plans. It’s ironic that this furore comes at a time when he has largely won over our support by the way he has run the club. For years his image was tarnished by poor judgement regarding the key appointment in any football club, the manager. Hoddle came and went, to be followed by what felt like the longest reign of any caretaker when, under David Pleat, we could so easily have been relegated. Santini failed, then Jol was removed because he was successful but not successful enough. With Ramos we plunged to the foot of the league until Our Harry came down from on high (well, the south coast) to save us all.
However, under Levy we have reaped the rewards of a consistent, prudent approach to money. He has resisted calls to make marquee signings, instead driving a series of hard bargains over salaries and fees. We’ve missed out on a few players in the process but the policy of buying good young players has more than made up for that as they mature. Also, the ludicrous problems experienced by Newcastle, Manchester United, West Ham and Liverpool are evidence enough to demonstrate the anguish caused by a potentially fatal combination of overbearing ego and an eye on the profit margin. Levy created sustainable financial stability and we owe him a lot.
Perhaps his biggest achievement, his personal legacy, was the new stadium. Finding a site near to the Lane was remarkable in overcrowded London. I don’t envy L’Arse their cavernous soulless spaceship but my goodness how I secretly admired the fact that stayed so close to home. Levy, however, trumped them, because we had a proper football ground, with stands close to the pitch and rising steeply plus an ‘end’. Thus the atmosphere of the Lane, its very essence, was preserved for generations to come.
This is why we felt safe with Levy, because this above all else proved he knew what football means. A proper ground, in our home! He consulted the fans, listened and responded. He knew what we wanted and did something about it. Now that bond lies in tatters. There’s no consultation now because he does not want to hear what we have to say. That’s why I feel so badly let down.
Levy would say that he’s being consistent, acting with the same financial prudence that has taken us this far. I certainly do not want to bankrupt the club, but we should do everything that is humanly possible to stay in N17, rather than cut and run to Stratford.
So it’s back to the Olympic Park Legacy Committee. A baroness, a Sir and a Lord, plus members with backgrounds in the local community, athletics, politics and planning. They’re so on the ball, they only realised a couple of days ago that one colleague, Tessa Sanderson, has links with Newham, i.e. a partner with one of the bids. They will make a recommendation next Friday, which then goes to Boris and the government for a final decision. It’s possible that on the 28th they can defer their choice to seek more information, so don’t hold your breath. This is fast becoming a political hot potato so they will proceed with caution.
As it stands, Spurs bid is seen as the stronger financially whilst West Ham scores on the legacy issues. How the balance tips is anyone’s guess. Nothing is emerging from the committee. Athletics is having a big push in favour of keeping the Olympic Stadium and this could be decisive, but it is only one of several factors the OPLC is duty bound to consider. As I said last week, the public will be baffled by any plan that knocks the stadium down and I suspect Cameron does not want to be remembered as the man with the wrecking ball.
Whatever happens, Spurs fans will not have a say, and nor for that matter will the supporters of west Ham. Fans left out once more. Earlier I said in passing that we should be heard because we are the ones who pay the wages, but the fact is, that is no longer true. The majority of a club’s income comes not from gate receipts but from TV and other rights and from the corporate sector. They’ll care when it comes to the noise in the big games, the club and Sky love us then, but right now we’re out in the cold looking in.

 

[Hoowl]

The OS is a moot point if we don't win the bid and non disclosure reasons limit the amount we can.reveal and discuss.