The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[Viva la Tottenham]

can't wait to move to Stratford it will be great for the club to move out the ghetto :lol:

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Can't understand why any fan would protest now as this only plays into the hands of Haringey and against the club.

 

[MattyP]

Can't understand why any fan would protest now as this only plays into the hands of Haringey and against the club.

How so, when Haringey have already granted planning permission and have agreed the amount of money Spurs would have to pay under s106.

 

[yid1o]

Can't understand why any fan would protest now as this only plays into the hands of Haringey and against the club.

I see what you're saying but it should never have got this far and that is purely down to Harringey wantingus to pay to regenerate the whole of Tottenham.
Personally I still hope it's a bluff by Levy and Harringey will stop their ridiculous demands.

 

[SpurSince57]

I see what you're saying but it should never have got this far and that is purely down to Harringey wantingus to pay to regenerate the whole of Tottenham.
Personally I still hope it's a bluff by Levy and Harringey will stop their ridiculous demands.

Jesus wept… :roll:

What would these ridiculous demands be?

 

[Mattspur]

Going to Stratford would be the worst thing that ever happened to Spurs. Be careful what you wish for.

Why?

 

[yid1o]

Jesus wept… :roll:

What would these ridiculous demands be?

* £3m to redesign the roads around the stadium
* £1.23m to implement a Controlled Parking Zone
* £1.17m for improved walkways
* £300,000 for signage
* £1.2m to improve the walking route to White Hart Lane station
* £1.36m to build another lane on both sides of Tottenham High Road
* £361,000 on improving cycle routes.
* £5.6m towards upgrading Tottenham Hale station. (Spurs have offered £1.3m)
* £1.2m "Education contribution" to Haringey
Plus the historic buildings that they have happily let rot for years and we have to pay for this.

Why?

West Ham's manor not ours. East London not north. Heritage.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

How so, when Haringey have already granted planning permission and have agreed the amount of money Spurs would have to pay under s106.

Haringey are asking for 16 mil under s.106, Newham are planning to give/loan Wet Spam something like 80 mil in their bid for the OS. what exactly did Haringey do to assist Spurs with the ridiculous demands of the numpties at English Heritage ? Nothing. What will Haringey be like if the borough's biggest employer and attraction leaves ? An even bigger dump. Against this backdrop shouldn't Haringey be paying Spurs rather than the other way round. They thought they had the club over a barrel and tried it on thankfully we have a Chairman who isn't a fool.

 

[MattyP]

Haringey are asking for 16 mil under s.106, Newham are planning to give/loan Wet Spam something like 80 mil in their bid for the OS. what exactly did Haringey do to assist Spurs with the ridiculous demands of the numpties at English Heritage ? Nothing. What will Haringey be like if the borough's biggest employer and attraction leaves ? An even bigger dump. Against this backdrop shouldn't Haringey be paying Spurs rather than the other way round. They thought they had the club over a barrel and tried it on thankfully we have a Chairman who isn't a fool.

There will be s106 contributions required if we move to Stratford.

Haringey pushed through the planning approval in under two years, compared to over four for the Emirates.

Haringey have also agreed in prinicpal to grant compulsory purchase orders for the remaining properties we do not currently own.

In a world of 20% budget cuts, do you really expect a council to pay for a company to develop their own property, rather than invest in child welfare, libraries etc.

Newham are loaning West Ham money and in exchange will get a cut of the takings. They will make a profit out of it, that I am sure.

And I'm pretty sure that Haringey did have discussions with English Heritage. And for the record, there were a number of fans who were just as vociferous about keeping the Red House and the old Charingtons pub as English Heritage were.

But then I guess if people are willing to give up our stadium so easily a couple of other buildings that form part of our history won't even register.

May as well give up the golden cockerels whilst we are at it. :roll:

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Matty - I've also read Haringey's letter and it cuts no ice with me, I support Spurs not Haringey and as such want the best deal for Spurs (even though I was born in Tottenham). The simple facts are the borough is stuffed without Spurs, they know it and we know it, to allow a situation to develop where the cost to Spurs of building the same stadium 5 miles down the road and spending money on upgrading Crystal Palace is 200
mil cheaper is crass incompetence on the part of the council as an executive body looking after the best interests of the borough.

As to fan protest many fans protested to retain The Shelf, a move that in part led to the fiasco of our last major ground rebuilding which led the club to the brink of bankruptcy and the Sugar takeover. All other things being equal would I rather stay at WHL ? Sure. Should we do that at the cost of progressing the team ? No. History tells us not to be Luddites.

 

[SpurSince57]

Haringey are asking for 16 mil under s.106, Newham are planning to give/loan Wet Spam something like 80 mil in their bid for the OS. what exactly did Haringey do to assist Spurs with the ridiculous demands of the numpties at English Heritage ? Nothing. What will Haringey be like if the borough's biggest employer and attraction leaves ? An even bigger dump. Against this backdrop shouldn't Haringey be paying Spurs rather than the other way round. They thought they had the club over a barrel and tried it on thankfully we have a Chairman who isn't a fool.

Sorry, AYC, I usually have a good deal of time for what you post, but this is ill-informed nonsense.

As Matty's pointed out, Newham will also want S106/S278 contributions, and £16m in the context of a £450m budget is chickenfeed.

How the hell do you know that Haringey did nothing to negotiate with English Heritage? Are you not aware, anyway, that quite a few fans were unhappy that the 'Red House' in particular should be spared because of its connections with Spurs' early history?

Perhaps Haringey should cut a few more services to accommodate ENIC's shareholders.

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

SS57 - you know I'm never too proud to accept I'm wrong so if I'm ill informed please explain to me how the reported 200 mil difference between NPD and OS stacks up.

 

[MattyP]

Matty - I've also read Haringey's letter and it cuts no ice with me, I support Spurs not Haringey and as such want the best deal for Spurs (even though I was born in Tottenham). The simple facts are the borough is stuffed without Spurs, they know it and we know it, to allow a situation to develop where the cost to Spurs of building the same stadium 5 miles down the road and spending money on upgrading Crystal Palace is 200
mil cheaper is crass incompetence on the part of the council as an executive body looking after the best interests of the borough.

As to fan protest many fans protested to retain The Shelf, a move that in part led to the fiasco of our last major ground rebuilding which led the club to the brink of bankruptcy and the Sugar takeover. All other things being equal would I rather stay at WHL ? Sure. Should we do that at the cost of progressing the team ? No. History tells us not to be Luddites.

Okay, on the £200m claim. Keirle has already said it will cost roughly the same to build the actual stadium, whether it be in Stratford or Tottenham.

So, it's the ancillary stuff that will save £200m. I just don't buy that - are we really planning on developing the hotel, supermarket, housing, cafes, museum and shop and virtually give them away for free?

Or are will they actually cost us an extra £200m to develop and us actually make more than that from their sale/leasing?

And what are Haringey supposed to do even if the £200m is actually a true figure - give us the difference to make us stay? Haringey's net spend for 2010/11 is just a shade over £400m.

I know all about the problems of previous stadium developments (I did my thesis on the accounts & finances of Tottenham up until 1994) - but if the NDP was viable at £400m, it should still be viable at £450m.

The trouble is ENIC do not want to have to contribute potentially an extra £50m when they can get the Olympic site and sell at a bigger profit.

 

[yid1o]

Okay, on the £200m claim. Keirle has already said it will cost roughly the same to build the actual stadium, whether it be in Stratford or Tottenham.

So, it's the ancillary stuff that will save £200m. I just don't buy that - are we really planning on developing the hotel, supermarket, housing, cafes, museum and shop and virtually give them away for free?

Or are will they actually cost us an extra £200m to develop and us actually make more than that from their sale/leasing?

And what are Haringey supposed to do even if the £200m is actually a true figure - give us the difference to make us stay? Haringey's net spend for 2010/11 is just a shade over £400m.

I know all about the problems of previous stadium developments (I did my thesis on the accounts & finances of Tottenham up until 1994) - but if the NDP was viable at £400m, it should still be viable at £450m.

The trouble is ENIC do not want to have to contribute potentially an extra £50m when they can get the Olympic site and sell at a bigger profit.

Here endeth the lesson.
Incidently, if the OS costs £500m to build, thats just the building no transport links, how are we supposed to knock it down and rebuild for just £250m or am I missing something?

 

[SpurSince57]

There clearly will be a difference, but what really annoys me is that Haringey is getting blame that it simply hasn't deserved. Now, God knows, I've spent a not inconsiderable amount of time over the past 30-odd years letting Haringey Council know how hopeless I think they are (not that they seem to be that much more hopeless than Enfield, Waltham Forest, etc.), but on this score they've pushed the scheme through impressively quickly; as I've posted several times in the Stadium Discussion thread, there would have been blood on the carpet at the Civic Centre if there had been obstruction. Levy complaining that Islington helped out Arsenal's move is absurd; the economic climate has changed completely in the last few years, and with a near-£90m shortfall in its budget this year due to government cuts Haringey is in no position to offer financial help.

The construction cost for the stadium will be about the same, assuming that the stadium Spurs propose building on the OS site is the same we've seen in the plans; as there will, presumably, be no hotel, supermarket, flats, etc., the cost of those will be knocked off, which explains how Spurs can refurbish Crystal Palace. However, the plc has spent an awful lot of money acquiring a substantial slab of North Tottenham and knocking it down, and that's got to bite hard into that £200m difference. It's going to be several years before any development can take place, and projections of what the club/plc may be able to recoup are just projections. By that time the Hale Village will have been up and running for some time, and I find it hard to believe one of the poorest boroughs in London will be able to support two hotel/residential/shopping complexes.

If Levy's made a cock of his sums he should hold up his hand, not try and shift the blame.

 

[Parmigiano]

Matty - I've also read Haringey's letter and it cuts no ice with me, I support Spurs not Haringey and as such want the best deal for Spurs (even though I was born in Tottenham). The simple facts are the borough is stuffed without Spurs, they know it and we know it, to allow a situation to develop where the cost to Spurs of building the same stadium 5 miles down the road and spending money on upgrading Crystal Palace is 200
mil cheaper is crass incompetence on the part of the council as an executive body looking after the best interests of the borough.

As to fan protest many fans protested to retain The Shelf, a move that in part led to the fiasco of our last major ground rebuilding which led the club to the brink of bankruptcy and the Sugar takeover. All other things being equal would I rather stay at WHL ? Sure. Should we do that at the cost of progressing the team ? No. History tells us not to be Luddites.

I would endeavour to furnish accurate facts if I was you.

The protests about the Shelf occurred DURING Sugars time.

The bankruptcy issue was to do with Scholar getting the Club into a right financial mess due to such issues such as a disastrous exercise in clothing (Hummell) as well as, I daresay, some reckless spending in the transfer Market. What compounded it was that he turned to Robert Maxwell to bail him out, who initially agreed but then reneged on it in an effort to buy Tottenham himself. This is what left us on the cusp of bankruptcy NOT the Shelf protest nor its redesign.

 

[striebs]

[/b]

Here endeth the lesson.
Incidently, if the OS costs £500m to build, thats just the building no transport links, how are we supposed to knock it down and rebuild for just £250m or am I missing something?

The elephant in the room couldn't elude you !

Try asking that one at county hall and see how quickly you are hurried out of the door !

Bottom line , whenever the public purse tries to buy anything it ends up paying too much for it .

Human nature being what it is the people making the decision are not as careful with other peoples (taxpayers) money as they would be if it was their own .

A lot of bribes can be hidden in a project of this size too and quangos funded by the back door paying them for ostensibly consulting on the project .

 

[SpurSince57]

As for the touching idea that what will probably be a notional saving when all the dust has settled will be ploughed into the team, or that tickets will be cheaper…

In the end, whose is the benefit? Spurs the football club, or Spurs the plc?

The importance of location argument reminds me a little of the end of 'Kingdom of Heaven', when Balian meets Saladin outside the battered walls of Jerusalem and asks: 'What is Jerusalem?'

Saladin replies: 'Nothing… And everything.'

Apologies if I don't have the quotations precisely right.

 

[spursphil]

* £3m to redesign the roads around the stadium
* £1.23m to implement a Controlled Parking Zone
* £1.17m for improved walkways
* £300,000 for signage
* £1.2m to improve the walking route to White Hart Lane station
* £1.36m to build another lane on both sides of Tottenham High Road
* £361,000 on improving cycle routes.
* £5.6m towards upgrading Tottenham Hale station. (Spurs have offered £1.3m)
* £1.2m "Education contribution" to Haringey
Plus the historic buildings that they have happily let rot for years and we have to pay for this.



West Ham's manor not ours. East London not north. Heritage.

What gets me about the council is that Tottenham are prepared to invest £400m on the NDP which would kick start the much needed regeneration in the area and "Haringey have agreed how much we will pay under s106" which is nice of them. I understand its common pratice, but its like the invester is being mugged for investing.

And the list of things the club has to pay for is beyond a joke, much of which is already the responcibilty of the council. CP zones so the council can target spurs fans for daring to drive anywhere near the ground.
£5.6m towards Tottenham Hale, you wouldn't mind if the cost of a ticket included free travel on the tube like in Barcelona and at many Bundesliga grounds.
But no, Tottenham pay for the improvements yet TFL get the revenue, you couldn't make it up, its arse about face.

£1.2M Education contribution to Haringey? Whats that for, Lessons for council staff in "how to turn an area in a dump in 20 short years"

If the board really want to move to Stratford can you blame them?

One thing that really gets me in this debate is the "Its West Ham's manor" thing. Well it just isn't.

If you drew a circle in a 6 or 7 mile radius around Tottenham it would be a safe bet to say that’s where our historical and traditional support comes from, and that would include the Hackney and Stratford area, they are both in our catchment area.

With the movement of Londoners to the suburbs and home counties in the last 25 years our traditional support has moved with it. We have to look at the big picture, Tottenham is not just a North London club anymore, the vast majority of our support now comes from all over London and the south east.

The same applies to West Ham, in fact i would go as far as to say there must be as many spurs fans in the Hackney area as there is West Ham. Its our manor as well, just like on a non match day around Tottenham you would see more Man utd and Arsenal shirts then you would do Spurs shirts.

 

[Mattspur]

*

West Ham's manor not ours. East London not north. Heritage.

Moving to Stratford wont affect our heritage at all. What happened in our history would still have happened.

What Stratford would give us is a chance of having a future where we can compete for all honours. Our current stadium won't do that and I can't see them building the NDP as it would cost far to much.

There's no point having a 60,000 seat stadium if you've had to sell all your best players to fund it.

I would love us to be able to redevelop WHL but Stratford would be better in just about every way.