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mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
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Whoever higher up the chain he informed of his plan to go in 2019 I am more concerned about. The response should have been "we'll see", rather than just letting him get on with it as seems to be the case.

The whole management, coaching and the administrators, is too soft and too relaxed about things at the moment and needs someone a bit more focused and disciplined.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

It's not the fact that Vince is a shot maker in the shorter format etc, it's the unimaginative selection of him in the first place. He had a pretty mediocre season in the county game last year, and would have been as surprised as anyone that he was even selected to tour in the first place. Same goes for the continued selection of Ballance. A coach is there to do his job.
Vince has always been a shot maker. Feast or famine with him. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Is he a number three in test cricket? Nope, probably not. Personally I wouldn't have had him at three, he is no better than a five a this level of Cricket but got thrown back in at the deep end again.

Making a scapegoat of one player when you have a captain who won't bat at three is a little lame in this day and age. He did what was asked of him, shame Root won't do the same.

On the Vince situation, I'm still waiting to read anyone with a decent opinion on who to change him for. When all you have in the hutch are people who want to play their shots, it's not going to be easy filling the void. So here is my two pence worth ...

Personally I would have a look at Liam Livingston of Lancashire, but he is yet another player who has made more of a name for himself in the shorter format of the game. He had a decent county season and both Paul Allot (now directer of cricket at Lancs) and Bumble (no suprise there then) speak highly of him.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Whoever higher up the chain he informed of his plan to go in 2019 I am more concerned about. The response should have been "we'll see", rather than just letting him get on with it as seems to be the case.

The whole management, coaching and the administrators, is too soft and too relaxed about things at the moment and needs someone a bit more focused and disciplined.
2019 world cup in this country will most likely have a lot to do with the decision ...
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
Vince has always been a shot maker. Feast or famine with him. Not sure how you can say otherwise. Is he a number three in test cricket? Nope, probably not. Personally I wouldn't have had him at three, he is no better than a five a this level of Cricket but got thrown back in at the deep end again.

Making a scapegoat of one player when you have a captain who won't bat at three is a little lame in this day and age. He did what was asked of him, shame Root won't do the same.

On the Vince situation, I'm still waiting to read anyone with a decent opinion on who to change him for. When all you have in the hutch are people who want to play their shots, it's not going to be easy filling the void. So here is my two pence worth ...

Personally I would have a look at Liam Livingston of Lancashire, but he is yet another player who has made more of a name for himself in the shorter format of the game. He had a decent county season and both Paul Allot (now directer of cricket at Lancs) and Bumble (no suprise there then) speak highly of him.

Where did I say otherwise?

He's not a test match batsman at any position, something he had already proved when he was selected first time. Which is my point, he got selected, didn't perform, got dropped and then got recalled having had a pretty average time of it. Which was the mistake. Hampshire supporter (likewise) by any chance?
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Where did I say otherwise?

He's not a test match batsman at any position, something he had already proved when he was selected first time. Which is my point, he got selected, didn't perform, got dropped and then got recalled having had a pretty average time of it. Which was the mistake. Hampshire supporter (likewise) by any chance?
I am a Hampshire supporter and do have an axe to grind happy to admit it too.

Vince is not a number three but to keep discarding players who get turned over by the best attack in the world ...

I'll wait on the suggestion as who to replace him with, same old same old I would suggest though by the looks of it ...
 

mpickard2087

Patient Zero
Jun 13, 2008
21,886
32,513
2019 world cup in this country will most likely have a lot to do with the decision ...

Maybe for him, people like Strauss need to make sure he's doing his job in the meantime. Really the white ball stuff needs little input, it's very much what happens on the day etc, and if anything Morgan and his attitude/outlook has been the most important bit of the change to the limited overs teams.

Saying all that I'd be happy for him and his crew to carry on leading the one day stuff, but (unless there are some major changes and lessons learnt) I think we need someone else in charge of the Test team.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Maybe for him, people like Strauss need to make sure he's doing his job in the meantime. Really the white ball stuff needs little input, it's very much what happens on the day etc, and if anything Morgan and his attitude/outlook has been the most important bit of the change to the limited overs teams.

Saying all that I'd be happy for him and his crew to carry on leading the one day stuff, but (unless there are some major changes and lessons learnt) I think we need someone else in charge of the Test team.
Unless we get trounced by everyone we play this year, there won't be a change at the top. The ECB nailed their colours to mast the moment Bayliss became head coach. Protect their investment as long as the money spinning shorter format stuff keeps turning up results.

Test match cricket is why I fell in love with this sport, hopefully England turn it around against New Zealand and heading into the summer.

Quick edit:

Not sure how much input Strauss has had recently or will have moving forward, I think it was reported his wife had just been diagnosed with cancer ... Kinda puts all of this into perspective.
 

Teemu

Pretty fly for a Tanguy
Jan 12, 2006
3,499
5,406
Apparently Cook is the only batsman ever to carry his bat in a double ton and average less than 50 for a series.

That’s quite a niche stat so it wouldn’t surprise me!

Joe Root is the only 27 year old Yorkshire-born England captain to retire on 58* after getting the shits at the SCG :whistle:

Oh and Vince is awful. He’s shown zero substance other than one decent innings at Brisbane. He’s had 12 Tests and averages 22, and his First Division average is 31, which hardly suggests someone who should be batting at 3 for England. I don’t buy into the ‘oh but he’s so talented’ rhetoric; he’s only got one shot but because it’s a cover drive and it’s pretty to watch he gets cut an incredible amount of slack. I’d stick with Stoneman for New Zealand, at least he’s shown a bit of grit and I think his temperament is good.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

That’s quite a niche stat so it wouldn’t surprise me!

Joe Root is the only 27 year old Yorkshire-born England captain to retire on 58* after getting the shits at the SCG :whistle:

Oh and Vince is awful. He’s shown zero substance other than one decent innings at Brisbane. He’s had 12 Tests and averages 22, and his First Division average is 31, which hardly suggests someone who should be batting at 3 for England. I don’t buy into the ‘oh but he’s so talented’ rhetoric; he’s only got one shot but because it’s a cover drive and it’s pretty to watch he gets cut an incredible amount of slack. I’d stick with Stoneman for New Zealand, at least he’s shown a bit of grit and I think his temperament is good.
LOL

What a load of old guff.

He was shit this series no doubt, not a test number three but I dunno who is cutting him some slack.

Anyway, it's time for the pj cricket now, and time for the pundits to wax lyrical about the six hitters etc .... We can pretend this blighted shithole of a tour never happened, if we win a few games that is.
 

Teemu

Pretty fly for a Tanguy
Jan 12, 2006
3,499
5,406
LOL

What a load of old guff.

He was shit this series no doubt, not a test number three but I dunno who is cutting him some slack.

Anyway, it's time for the pj cricket now, and time for the pundits to wax lyrical about the six hitters etc .... We can pretend this blighted shithole of a tour never happened, if we win a few games that is.

Cut slack in the sense that, because he’s a pretty player to watch, a lot of people including the selectors want to believe there’s a test quality batsman in there despite all of the statistics suggesting otherwise.

As a Hampshire supporter I’m sure you’ve seen more than him than I have but I honestly can’t see any logical reason for him being selected. He had a mediocre year in the Championship and has already failed at test level despite being given a decent run of games. He only has a couple of (very attractive) scoring shots, and repeatedly gets out in the same manner because he doesn’t rotate the strike very well so ends up getting frustrated and playing injudicious drives to balls he should be leaving.

Nothing against him personally (or Hampshire), I just really don’t understand the selection. I accept there aren’t a wealth of alternatives but even Gary Ballance has shown he’s a far more accomplished run scorer at both county and test level than Vince has ever shown himself to be.
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Cut slack in the sense that, because he’s a pretty player to watch, a lot of people including the selectors want to believe there’s a test quality batsman in there despite all of the statistics suggesting otherwise.

As a Hampshire supporter I’m sure you’ve seen more than him than I have but I honestly can’t see any logical reason for him being selected. He had a mediocre year in the Championship and has already failed at test level despite being given a decent run of games. He only has a couple of (very attractive) scoring shots, and repeatedly gets out in the same manner because he doesn’t rotate the strike very well so ends up getting frustrated and playing injudicious drives to balls he should be leaving.

Nothing against him personally (or Hampshire), I just really don’t understand the selection. I accept there aren’t a wealth of alternatives but even Gary Ballance has shown he’s a far more accomplished run scorer at both county and test level than Vince has ever shown himself to be.
You almost had me until you mentioned Ballance ...

Like I said people do talk a lot of old guff sometimes.
 

Teemu

Pretty fly for a Tanguy
Jan 12, 2006
3,499
5,406
You almost had me until you mentioned Ballance ...

Like I said people do talk a lot of old guff sometimes.

I’m not trying to “have” you. I asked you, as someone who has seen more of Vince than I have, what makes you think he’s anywhere near Test standard? Presumably it’s not his average of 22 in 12 Tests, or his average of 32 in county cricket last season.

I don’t particularly rate Ballance either, but he averages almost double Vince in twice the number of tests Tests, and has an average just below 50 in FC cricket.
 
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D

Deleted member 27995

I’m not trying to “have” you o_O I asked you, as someone who has seen more of Vince than I have, what makes you think he’s anywhere near Test standard? Presumably it’s not his average of 22 in 12 Tests, or his average of 32 in county cricket last season.

I don’t particularly rate Ballance either, but he averages almost double Vince in twice the number of tests Tests, and has an average just below 50 in FC cricket.
Ask yourself why you think Vince even though the averages you keep quoting (all true I know) is playing front of Gary Ballance in this test team that currently looks devoid of confidence and talent.

I'll wait.
 

Teemu

Pretty fly for a Tanguy
Jan 12, 2006
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Ask yourself why you think Vince even though the averages you keep quoting (all true I know) is playing front of Gary Ballance in this test team that currently looks devoid of confidence and talent.

I'll wait.

I think, because he’s an attractive player, that he’s getting an extended run in the side which I’m not convinced he deserves. I literally just said that in my first post and I’m not exactly in a minority to think that.

I don’t think Gary Ballance should have been in the squad either, for what it’s worth. But based on his overall test record and his performance in county cricket in recent seasons I can understand his selection more than that of Vince.

I’ll ask for a third time, as someone who sees a lot of Vince, what makes you think he deserved to get picked? I’ve got nothing at all against the guy, I’m genuinely interested to hear your answer.

I’m trying to engage in rational discussion with you here but sadly your responses are rather like a James Vince innings in that they are ephemeral and lack substance o_O
 
D

Deleted member 27995

I think, because he’s an attractive player, that he’s getting an extended run in the side which I’m not convinced he deserves. I literally just said that in my first post and I’m not exactly in a minority to think that.

I don’t think Gary Ballance should have been in the squad either, for what it’s worth. But based on his overall test record and his performance in county cricket in recent seasons I can understand his selection more than that of Vince.

I’ll ask for a third time, as someone who sees a lot of Vince, what makes you think he deserved to get picked? I’ve got nothing at all against the guy, I’m genuinely interested to hear your answer.

I’m trying to engage in rational discussion with you here but sadly your responses are rather like a James Vince innings in that they are ephemeral and lack substance o_O
I've never suggested anywhere that he deserved to be picked. Personally I was shocked at the recall. It didn't make sense to me considering his better innings matches had/have come in the shorter formats of the game.

I thought he would have been behind the likes of Malan and Ballance when the team was selected to tour and would be 'first man up' so to speak if either of them faltered. So even more shocked to hear he was being pencilled in at three. At this level he isn't a three. If he was/should have been given a shot to try and restart his England test playing career it should have been at five considering the giant hole Stokes had left.

He was given the shot and he showed somewhat why the selectors had shocked so many people, with his innings in the first test. Things is he never built on it. Test match cricket has a way of easily finding you out, Gary Ballance falls into the same bracket. He just had a better start to his test career. The last three years, on and off he has been woeful for England.

The reason I'll happily defend Vince (besides being a Hampshire supporter) is because those involved with squad selection are to blame for him being played at three. I think he deserved a fair crack of the whip and most would say that as far as test match cricket goes, he has had it. He is talented but I not as the gun batsman at three.

He has taken more stick from pundits on this tour than he did after his first go round, I'm still trying to find anyone bar myself who has cut him any slack since the first Test match.

I wouldn't change anything now until the summer, unless they have someone earmarked from the Lions Tour to try at three.

Besides A&C's nan I still haven't seen many suggestions as to who is going to play at three if Vince is dropped. Malan to move up perhaps? We'll see.

I happily wear my Hampshire colours on my sleeve and defend players. Vince is not free of criticism but some of what has been written/opinion passed on him is a little unjust, only my opinion of course.

:)
 

Teemu

Pretty fly for a Tanguy
Jan 12, 2006
3,499
5,406
I've never suggested anywhere that he deserved to be picked. Personally I was shocked at the recall. It didn't make sense to me considering his better innings matches had/have come in the shorter formats of the game.

I thought he would have been behind the likes of Malan and Ballance when the team was selected to tour and would be 'first man up' so to speak if either of them faltered. So even more shocked to hear he was being pencilled in at three. At this level he isn't a three. If he was/should have been given a shot to try and restart his England test playing career it should have been at five considering the giant hole Stokes had left.

He was given the shot and he showed somewhat why the selectors had shocked so many people, with his innings in the first test. Things is he never built on it. Test match cricket has a way of easily finding you out, Gary Ballance falls into the same bracket. He just had a better start to his test career. The last three years, on and off he has been woeful for England.

The reason I'll happily defend Vince (besides being a Hampshire supporter) is because those involved with squad selection are to blame for him being played at three. I think he deserved a fair crack of the whip and most would say that as far as test match cricket goes, he has had it. He is talented but I not as the gun batsman at three.

He has taken more stick from pundits on this tour than he did after his first go round, I'm still trying to find anyone bar myself who has cut him any slack since the first Test match.

I wouldn't change anything now until the summer, unless they have someone earmarked from the Lions Tour to try at three.

Besides A&C's nan I still haven't seen many suggestions as to who is going to play at three if Vince is dropped. Malan to move up perhaps? We'll see.

I happily wear my Hampshire colours on my sleeve and defend players. Vince is not free of criticism but some of what has been written/opinion passed on him is a little unjust, only my opinion of course.

:)

Fair enough and you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion. I remain unconvinced but fully admit there aren’t a whole lot of options.

Malan has done well at 5 so I’d rather keep him there. We’ll see what the selectors decide for the NZ series - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Vince get another go and of course if that’s the case I’d be delighted to see him do well!
 
D

Deleted member 27995

Fair enough and you’re absolutely entitled to your opinion. I remain unconvinced but fully admit there aren’t a whole lot of options.

Malan has done well at 5 so I’d rather keep him there. We’ll see what the selectors decide for the NZ series - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Vince get another go and of course if that’s the case I’d be delighted to see him do well!
If there is a better option at three then I am all for it. Objectively the average doesn't lie.

It's all for the greater good of the team ... Right?!
 

Spurs_Bear

Well-Known Member
Jan 7, 2009
17,094
22,286
With the players we had out there for the Ashes/Lions tour, I would like to see something like this for NZ.

Cook
Stoneman
Malan
Root
Bairstow (w)
Foakes
Ali (I don't want to see him but he wont be dropped)
Woakes
Broad
Curran/Leach
Anderson

If they would be prepared to play Leach (leading spinner in the CC last two years) then I would drop Ali and have someone like Buttler come in as a batsman. He's been gunning it in the Big Bash and bowling attacks are scared of him. The ball is the same size and shape no matter what colour it is, just as easy to smash the granny out of it regardless.
 
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