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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 13th July

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Johnny J

Not the Kiwi you need but the one you deserve
Aug 18, 2012
18,124
47,907
I guess ultimately I just don’t really like it when people who are underwhelmed by a transfer get so heavily jumped on. It feeds a cult-like behaviour on here where there’s no proper debate.
There's "underwhelmed", and then there's "waste of money signing".

Debate is healthy, yes; and extreme views will always result in strong responses.
 

eddiev14

SC Supporter
Jan 18, 2005
7,173
19,679
another waste of money signing imo. ok player but not the one to take us to the next level. same as sissoko, njie, nkd, lamela ( i like him but not 35m player of that time and age ), all that wasted money could have gotten us way better players had we rather pay more for 1.

happy to be proven wrong but i highly doubt it.

I guess we have to look at our model in this market. I see your point that we’re clearly not going to compete at the top of the market, and this is a heavy indicator of this.

So I do understand your disappointment with the deal, if that’s your perspective.

All I’d say though is that our ‘young’ squad is a lot more experienced than people say it is, and the World Cup will have further helped that.

I think Grealish is an interesting one. The majority reaction on here when we were first linked was near total dismissal of the idea. Probably because everyone was in the giddy midst of Bale and other unreachable dreams.

However one thing we do have is Pochettino. He is our star.

He has done so much for the players with actual real talent and drive (attributes missing from the players you listed), and so if we can get Jack Grealish for 20m in this market then maybe he can do for him what he did for Alli.

I think that’s where we are, and I find it quite exciting. Especially in a country where talented young players struggle to get a break and see a manager getting like 70% of the current England team their first caps.
 

Majick

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2017
603
2,148
We need to have good quality depth, especially if we're getting shot of, for the sake of argument, 3 or 4 of the players who've warmed the bench and not much else the last few seasons. In terms of genuinely contributing to the team's achievements last season, the fringe players achieved very little besides giving the first 12/13 a bit of a rest on occasion. We need much more than that.

There's simply no way of knowing if Grealish is going to evolve into Dembele mk2, Gascoigne mk2, form a perfectly whole and coherent midfield 2 with Winks or be another dud from the bottom third (cost-wise) of the transfer market as so many of our recent signings have been.

It could simply be that he's part of the churn we've seen with Janssen, N'Koudou and others who come in for a season or two, don't settle/kick on and then get moved on. But (takes pinch of salt) the ITK suggests that he's wanted by the people in charge, he's not a makeweight signing, and he definitely has potential. We have a decent record as a club of bringing through young players, and we provide a competitive environment at the top end of the league + with CL football which must make us very attractive to players who want to prove themselves. We also don't have 40 players vying for 25 spots, unlike some other clubs. And, as others have noted, Pochettino has a fantastic record of getting young English players noticed.

Unless something drastic changes, he's arriving early in pre-season and will get chances over the coming year to show what he can do and what he can bring to the team. What little I've seen of him, I've been impressed with, and if his attitude has received a positive shake from the horror show he went through then that can only help him going forward.
 

eddiev14

SC Supporter
Jan 18, 2005
7,173
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There's "underwhelmed", and then there's "waste of money signing".

Debate is healthy, yes; and extreme views will always result in strong responses.

I’m not sure his view was extreme, it’s just the other side of the coin. It’s cool though, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
 

Vitur15

Active Member
May 17, 2018
67
203
I guess ultimately I just don’t really like it when people who are underwhelmed by a transfer get so heavily jumped on. It feeds a cult-like behaviour on here where there’s no proper debate.

I think it's less people "jumping on" those who are underwhelmed by a transfer and more people being incredibly frustrated when people act like it's the end of the world and we're a complete failure of a club if/when we either make a signing they don't like or a signing that isn't a direct improvement on the starting xi. It seems like those kind of people's reaction is either "omg what a brilliant signing, Levy you're tremendous!" or "omg kill me this isn't the exact signing I dreamed of, Levy you monster!" and there isn't anything in between. It's especially annoying when people on here pick and choose what to believe from itks to justify how they feel.
There's certainly room for discussion on transfers here if you don't like the club's business but crying and moaning that the club didn't do exactly what you wanted isn't the way to do it. Things aren't strictly black or white, there's nuance to this sort of thing.
 

james Stock

Active Member
Aug 31, 2012
165
448
Obviously the important people at the club think he has ability. While we are all entitled to opinions, they have to be tempered by the fact that if we were good enough at judging a players true ability we would have different day time jobs. Plenty of better players than Grealish have failed at various clubs, Some adapt immediately, others take time . Best to give the young man a bit of slack and see how he progresses.
 

rawhide

I have issues...
Jan 28, 2011
16,723
31,154
I think it's less people "jumping on" those who are underwhelmed by a transfer and more people being incredibly frustrated when people act like it's the end of the world and we're a complete failure of a club if/when we either make a signing they don't like or a signing that isn't a direct improvement on the starting xi. It seems like those kind of people's reaction is either "omg what a brilliant signing, Levy you're tremendous!" or "omg kill me this isn't the exact signing I dreamed of, Levy you monster!" and there isn't anything in between. It's especially annoying when people on here pick and choose what to believe from itks to justify how they feel.
There's certainly room for discussion on transfers here if you don't like the club's business but crying and moaning that the club didn't do exactly what you wanted isn't the way to do it. Things aren't strictly black or white, there's nuance to this sort of thing.
Nuance is lost on the Internet.
 

Kaboul'sForehead

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2013
854
3,868
I think it's less people "jumping on" those who are underwhelmed by a transfer and more people being incredibly frustrated when people act like it's the end of the world and we're a complete failure of a club if/when we either make a signing they don't like or a signing that isn't a direct improvement on the starting xi. It seems like those kind of people's reaction is either "omg what a brilliant signing, Levy you're tremendous!" or "omg kill me this isn't the exact signing I dreamed of, Levy you monster!" and there isn't anything in between. It's especially annoying when people on here pick and choose what to believe from itks to justify how they feel.
There's certainly room for discussion on transfers here if you don't like the club's business but crying and moaning that the club didn't do exactly what you wanted isn't the way to do it. Things aren't strictly black or white, there's nuance to this sort of thing.
You’re right, but you can sometimes also see those two extremes (love vs hate, excitement vs dread etc) irrationally extend to existing players too. Such as with Son.
 

Tarnished

Active Member
Jul 12, 2018
45
113
another waste of money signing imo. ok player but not the one to take us to the next level. same as sissoko, njie, nkd, lamela ( i like him but not 35m player of that time and age ), all that wasted money could have gotten us way better players had we rather pay more for 1.

happy to be proven wrong but i highly doubt it.

Not out to jump on you. Heaven forfend! We all know that buying players is a gamble but your list of ‘wasted money’ signings has a thread running through it. They are all from overseas and with the exception of Sissoko had no EPL pedigree. You could have added Janssen and Liorente.

Has the club’s hit-rate been any better with young homegrown talent? Probably, if we look at Walker, Rose, Davies, Trippier, Dele and, grace of his Everton time, Dier. That may be due also to others who failed but came in with lower expectations on their shoulders so we (I?) tend to forget them.

I’m expecting you to be proven wrong and I’’ll be happy when you’re happy.
 

Tonio

Good bloke, thorough professional.
May 15, 2008
3,814
6,577
Ffs I'll tell you what's lost. And that's this thread. Why can't people just limit their posts to itk and itk only?
 

dondo

Well-Known Member
Jan 4, 2006
8,603
14,091
another waste of money signing imo. ok player but not the one to take us to the next level. same as sissoko, njie, nkd, lamela ( i like him but not 35m player of that time and age ), all that wasted money could have gotten us way better players had we rather pay more for 1.

happy to be proven wrong but i highly doubt it.


Try to be a bit more positive.
We also have a great track record for picking up young English talent
 

JacoZA

Well-Known Member
Aug 2, 2013
889
4,797
On the Goat's most recent ITK re: Martial. Does that mean he's been 'round the stadium AND the training ground?

Surely we wouldn't be going through that kind of effort if we didn't feel somewhat confident?
 

Finchyid

Well-Known Member
Jun 27, 2017
3,769
11,975
On the Goat's most recent ITK re: Martial. Does that mean he's been 'round the stadium AND the training ground?

Surely we wouldn't be going through that kind of effort if we didn't feel somewhat confident?

And have a look at how fantastic it is.....better than what you have up North....Why would you not want to play here? nudge force transfer
 
May 17, 2018
11,872
47,993
Only really opinion I think, but if it helps to straighten the trajectory a little....

Ali Z (on Poch's brave' and signing players 'quickly'):
Of course he wants them done quickly BUT priority is getting players he wants not speed, he understands how we work and why.
 

Lighty64

I believe
Aug 24, 2010
10,400
12,476
Until we show that we can compete for signing top tier players, his reaction is perfectly valid - if those are the players he wants us to sign.

I don’t agree entirely with his reaction, as I think Grealish could become a good player for us and the value at the top end of the market is proper iffy. However, I don’t share your optimism and can see his point - the past few years has shown that we’re not going for those top players as we can’t compete financially.

I personally disagree with him in the sense that I think we can be a bit clever by taking a risk on younger players, like Grealish, and still improve the team. In fact, those are the players I’d prefer us to buy now that the squad has been together for a few years and is peaking.

However, it is fair to point out that people who think we’re spending something like £60-£80m on a player are living in cloud cuckoo land IMO. In fact, I’m not even sure what sort of player that gets you anymore, the market is so screwed.

I guess ultimately I just don’t really like it when people who are underwhelmed by a transfer get so heavily jumped on. It feeds a cult-like behaviour on here where there’s no proper debate.

you do know that signing Grealish not only brings in a young player that has talent and the world at his feet if he works hard. he looks very good playing in a team that competed at the top end of the championship, that wasn't doing to well till he returned from injury.

he will also bring the quota up to what we need in our 25 man squad for home grown

edit: they get jumped on like the 1's that do like a signing, it's about posters opinions and sometimes their opinion is the only 1 that counts:whistle:
 

jimmy-jojo

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,630
1,364
Only really opinion I think, but if it helps to straighten the trajectory a little....

Ali Z (on Poch's brave' and signing players 'quickly'):
Of course he wants them done quickly BUT priority is getting players he wants not speed, he understands how we work and why.

Acting speedily for the players he wants is surely the best strategy?

The quality of player we want are not going to be available indefinitely until we finally get our act together. You have to act decisively or you will miss out.

It should not have taken this long to get someone like Grealish over the line, IMO.
 

allatsea

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
8,866
16,054
Acting speedily for the players he wants is surely the best strategy?

The quality of player we want are not going to be available indefinitely until we finally get our act together. You have to act decisively or you will miss out.

It should not have taken this long to get someone like Grealish over the line, IMO.

Does the selling club and the player and his agent have any say in your ideal world ? They are all looking for the best possible deal for themselves and that will not come by doing a deal with us quickly.
 
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