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The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 14th July 2014

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Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
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I only said it to wind you up. Also, you forgot that Scottish and Irish players are overpriced as well. We all know that British players are overpriced but if he's the one Poch wants, I won't complain if we spend £10m on him. Also, I strongly disagree with your assessment of Davies' potential (and current ability) and I doubt you've seen enough of him to come to your judgement. Swansea fans speak every highly of him and that by itself is more valid than the vast majority of any of our opinions. They've seen him play and analysed his performances way more than people on here.

To put a spin in it, many people outside the world of Tottenham think that Lamela has been a flop and a shit player. We know he's not. Many Spurs fans think that Davies is poor/average whereas Swansea fans know he's not that either.

I haven't spoken to a swansea fan, but I did go one time to their forum to see what they thought of him.
You have some that think 10m is very little, and others that would bite our hands for that price. Even so, the level demands we have of a player are different from them. For instance, they love Shelvey, and I wouldn't want him near our team. Nor did Liverpool
 

Barry Mead

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2013
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To give a good example, Martin Indi, starting CB/LB in a WC semifinalist signed for Porto for 6m

To be fair I think I'd rather have Davies as a LB, there's been enough pretty poor players get caps over the years, we had Gilberto at lb who had over 30 caps for Brazil and who simply couldn't cut it in the PL.
I'm not saying Martins Indi is poor, but I wouldn't have wanted us signing him at lb or cb, he's really not that good regardless of being in a WC semi final
Apart from anything else players like Davies being Welsh are hardly likely to get to a WC finals much less the later stages so no matter how good he may ever possibly be he'll never match that achievement

That said, I understand your point that young players that have at least shown they can play in a high level semi final put in a decent enough performance and not cost over 6 mill euros does suggest that some of the variances in the transfer market seem crazy
 

CharlieRuffell

New Member
Jul 17, 2014
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He would have started IMO if there was no transfer stuff. We will get a real gauge of how far a transfer is across the line if he comes off the bench or not.

I wouldn't say him not starting suggests much, they've gone for quite an experimental XI. If a deal was close and a fee had been agreed it would seem a bit pointless to even include him on the bench imo.
 

Ossie85

Rio de la Plata
Aug 2, 2008
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To be fair I think I'd rather have Davies as a LB, there's been enough pretty poor players get caps over the years, we had Gilberto at lb who had over 30 caps for Brazil and who simply couldn't cut it in the PL.
I'm not saying Martins Indi is poor, but I wouldn't have wanted us signing him at lb or cb, he's really not that good regardless of being in a WC semi final
Apart from anything else players like Davies being Welsh are hardly likely to get to a WC finals much less the later stages so no matter how good he may ever possibly be he'll never match that achievement

That said, I understand your point that young players that have at least shown they can play in a high level semi final put in a decent enough performance and not cost over 6 mill euros does suggest that some of the variances in the transfer market seem crazy

I wasn't mentioning him because I wanted him as our LB. I was using him as reference for market value

It's true what you say about how hard it would be for a welsh guy. That was not my point though. Even so, if Davies was english he wouldn't be in the national team, and the same goes if he were dutch.
 

RuskyM

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
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martins indi looked a bit all over the place for holland let's be honest

de vrij was the one that shone
 

Sweech

Ruh Roh Ressegnon
Jun 27, 2013
6,752
16,378
Not one player in those 8/9 who can head a ball. Carroll, Lukaku, Benteke etc. would have a field day.

If we lose Dawson and/or Kaboul, we need to replace them with big powerful players to complement the more cultured Verts and Chiriches.
Aerial duals are clearly Chiriches' weakness, but as it turns out most of his best games were against big strikers specifically the ones you mentioned in Lukaku and Benteke, as well as against Stoke.
 

RuskyM

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2011
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and the itk regarding us not wanting to spend (which is more common sense than itk but anyway) is weird when considering we're realistically linked to two very good players with very affordable fees in griezmann & remy

two players that would comfortably make us better and almost certainly fit in well. i know we're scared of paying eight figures but they'd both be worth it, the latter especially
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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34,012
Not one player in those 8/9 who can head a ball. Carroll, Lukaku, Benteke etc. would have a field day.

If we lose Dawson and/or Kaboul, we need to replace them with big powerful players to complement the more cultured Verts and Chiriches.
Is Lascelles not good in the air (I have never seen him play)?
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
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Of course we all want those big name, fancy signings-especially with what's happening elsewhere; but the refreshing thing about news like this is it sounds as if we have a long term plan under a manager-and an understanding that that success doesn't happen overnight, so we are willing to build something. I hope the majority of fans can share this ideology.


You poor deluded fool.

Long term plan number eighteen.............with Levy that usually points to a season.

Flame away.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
18,013
I don't want anything to support my views mate. They're either agreed with, disagreed with, or downright thrown out altogether :(. I use my eyes to see if a player is good or bad, not some spread sheet full of numbers and percentages etc. That is my point (y)

I have one word to say to you.........


Moneyball.
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
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If Ben Davies is such an average player, then why are Liverpool, a Champions League team and last season's PL runners up, looking to sign him.

I think there are many people on here who think we are a much bigger club than we actually are.


Would that be the same Liverpool who brought Carroll and Downing? That Liverpool?
 

Gaz_Gammon

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2005
16,047
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market value
noun
noun: market value; plural noun: market values

  1. the amount for which something can be sold on a given market.
    "insurance may only cover the current market value of your car"


It's a cryptic ain't it..........

We are going to sign Keisuke Honda!
 

The Watcher

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2012
694
622
Ask yourself why clubs offer and/or demand that much for English players. In simple economics terms, there is a low supply for quality English players, and a high demand. That pushes the price higher than for a comparably skilled foreign player, where there is higher supply and lower demand.

It does not mean the market value of the English players is wrong - but it does present some opportunities to find gems if you are not looking for English-born players.

Plus the additional factor that everyone in the Premier League has a sizeable wedge of TV cash and are fairly unwilling to sell to one another. Foreign clubs have realised the former as well, we see all these fantastic value deals going on between continental European teams but the moment an English team comes in, the price doubles, a £5m player becomes a £10m one and so on.
 

Yid

Well Endowed Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,254
1,366
Was it JJ who mentioned Kono but said it's complicated? If not, it was another ITK.

It was actually - Jasper on SO a week or so ago, as follows:

Take this with tons of salt if you wish. I am of the opinion from what I heard that Ben Davies snag/hold up is with Swansea. All this media stuff about Siggy part of, and we want three of theirs, and us offering 20m plus Siggy is not true.

I hope it happens, and talks that we have not played ball is wrong. I have no opinion if that will happen or not, but hope it does. Soldado is not looking to go anywhere, and we are not looking to cut our losses. Konoplyanka is tricky and delicate with his terms and contract etc, agents and club pushing him and there you have the spammers story. I would love us to sign him, but not an easy one. Argentina 18/19 year old attacker/midfielder we are examine permit situation before proceeding.

Cheers ;)
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
13,655
Lamela is left footed but has always played on the right wing

Several Ajax fans that I know tell me Eriksen actially played as a left attacking mid - not centrally - drifting into the centre. Curiously Tim got that one spot on.

The only reason Tim played Eriksen out wide left in his free role is because our midfield was incapable of consistently getting him the ball in advantageous positions, and so found a way to get our most creative player the ball by just putting him wide. Sherwood himself lamented our lack of ability to move the ball from deep. So Eriksen was placed positionally to be able to pick up the ball more often, and Sherwood gave him two targets up top because again we were incapable of moving the ball on the ground forward for through-balls. We had an embarrassingly low number of through-balls this past season, and Sherwood figured we had to get the ball into attacking positions some way. Eriksen wide was that solution.

As we saw though, this was unfortunately at the detriment to defensive fortitude. It worked for Ajax in the Eredivisie because Ajax' forward players were less responsible in defense and Ajax as a whole had to defend considerably less because they were a stronger team in comparison in that league. In the Prem though, going forward, is not an optimal plan for us. Eriksen needs to be in his best position, and the rest of the team molded around him.
 

spurs9

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
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The only reason Tim played Eriksen out wide left in his free role is because our midfield was incapable of consistently getting him the ball in advantageous positions, and so found a way to get our most creative player the ball by just putting him wide. Sherwood himself lamented our lack of ability to move the ball from deep. So Eriksen was placed positionally to be able to pick up the ball more often, and Sherwood gave him two targets up top because again we were incapable of moving the ball on the ground forward for through-balls. We had an embarrassingly low number of through-balls this past season, and Sherwood figured we had to get the ball into attacking positions some way. Eriksen wide was that solution.

As we saw though, this was unfortunately at the detriment to defensive fortitude. It worked for Ajax in the Eredivisie because Ajax' forward players were less responsible in defense and Ajax as a whole had to defend considerably less because they were a stronger team in comparison in that league. In the Prem though, going forward, is not an optimal plan for us. Eriksen needs to be in his best position, and the rest of the team molded around him.
A bit of a worry, is the fact that Southampton hardly played any through balls last season either.
 

sak11

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2005
926
897
I'm not saying that stats should be disregarded entirely, just that IMO they are far less important when evaluating defenders than are physical, technical, and mental attributes. I'll readily admit to being underwhelmed by the prospect of Davies but if Poch has identified him as his top target who am I to really disagree.

With regards to assessing defenders... rose may have stronger physical attributes than Davies (except being a short arse) but in my opinion he is probably weaker in the others...
 

DaSpurs

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2013
11,816
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A bit of a worry, is the fact that Southampton hardly played any through balls last season either.

Indeed, and this is part of why I don't think Poch'll be featuring two genuine holding mids like he did at Saints. I think he has the resources and options even as of now to develop a more well-rounded ground game, even before any acquisitions in midfield.
 

Yid

Well Endowed Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,254
1,366
To give a good example, Martin Indi, starting CB/LB in a WC semifinalist signed for Porto for 6m

I can't speak to Davies' accurate monetary value ATM (although personally I wouldn't pay more than £8 Million for him), but Porto's agreed transfer fee for Martins Indi is pretty commensurate with his actual productivity and performance level.
Especially at the WC 2014 ((where he was completely outdone by his mates Vlaar and De Vrij))...The latter being the highest-rated & most complete CB of the tournament, according to whoscored.com & integrated Opta stats...Even slightly surpassing the likes of Garay of ANT & Hummels of GNT (in terms of the overall rating). Although Vlaar wasn't too far behind.
So while I see where you're going with your example, I am not quite sure if it's the best comparison.
 
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